Upset by estranged husbands comments on parenthood

[Rocklover]

Hi,

Husband came to visit DD last week and made some comments that upset me very much, opinions would be welcome. For those of you who don't know the history, one of the reasons we split is that I really didn't want to put DD in childcare form 8-6 every day which would have happened if I had worked full time. For those of you who do work FT, please don't be offended, this is only how I feel personally and I believe everyone has to make the right choice for them.

Anyway (phew) husband had visited a friend in London who had relayed him the following story about a brother of his. Basically this guy had split up with his wife who then met someone else and took the kids and moved up the Manchester. The father wanted to be near his kids so much that he left his well paid, "successful" job and moved up to Manchester ro a much lesser job in order to be with his kids (which I though was nice). Apparently, even though he is very loving and affectionate and takes them out alot they think he is a loser and have no respect for him. On the back of this story my husband (looking to comapre me to this guy I suspect) was saying that although love is very important (really???) it is just as vital for the parent to prove thmeselves to be very successful, which is now his goal, or said child will not love and respect parent.

The thing that shocks me is that he believes that this is a normal attitude for kids, I certainly never felt that way about my father, who had a manual job and if DD was ever like that I would feel I had failed as a parent...do kids really value money and position more than love and affection??? I think not! Not only that he was saying (in a very "politician" way) that I lacked goals and ambitions (i.e career) and that if we wanted to get back together we needed to both be looking at how to improve and become successful as a couple (like a fucking business).

Oh and to put the icing on the cake he said that DD would be better off in FT childcare as at the moment not being in any childcare at all could be harming her ( a direct jibe at me, he knows I am desperately looking for PT work so I can get her into a nursery or something for a little time each week).

Basically he is trying to point out that he is father of the year and I am pretty crap, trying to justify and prove that the marriage breakdown was solely down to me (although he would never admit it). I know my situation isn't ideal (now living with parents whilst he has bought new build flat), but DD is surrounded by love and is thriving, he was supposed to visit two evenings a week, which he has yet to manage and have her every other weekend, and thus he cancelled last weekend citing he was busy marking (but managed to pop down to London and skive off school on Monday).

Sorry for the epic but I am very angry and upset and really feel he is trying to undermine my abilities as a mother.

I think I'd just say something along the lines of "Look, by telling me these stories about some bloke whose kids have got issues with him, you're just going over old ground about us, which is irrelevant because we're just going to have to agree to disagree. The best way we can be good parents, is to try not to undermine each other or to slag off each other's choices, so how about we try that, eh?"

Sometimes, confronting this sort of snidiness head on, pointing out that it is snidey (sometimes people aren't even aware they're doing it, or they're obtuse enough to think you won't realise) is the quickest and easiest way of stopping it. You can do it in a pleasant way (which is even more annoying for the other party. )

I disagree that exes always find each other's parenting choices intolerable. I know people who acknowledge that the other person is doing a good job, or the best they can or whatever. Granted, they're usually a fair few years down the line and the initial bitterness and conflict is long done and sometimes the acknowledgement is a bit grudging, but when the chips are down they do stand up for each other (surprisingly, sometimes). It doesn't have to be undermining forever. (Although agree with Anniemac in many cases it is and god how tiring that is - why do people do that to each other and their children? Maybe the couples I know who don't do that, just got too tired?)

What an arse!

Will now read the reat of the thread

And get him this book for xmas... (really, it's a good book anyway)

Thanks anniemac, a well thought out answer and very helpful. Lol if OH wasn't such an idiot I would have no problem with him sharing child care with me, as it is, he is not the world's most natural father lol (though admittedly he does try when he is actually with her), and it would be a nightmare indeed!

The fact is he never phones to see how she is and when he does visit walks into my parents house without knocking then leaves the second she is in bed! I have realised though that despite what happened and the reasons we split, even if things had been better, our marriage still would not have lasted as our views and personalities are sooooo different. Just glad it happened sooner rather than later, but wish my beautiful DD didn't have to come from a "broken home".

Update: OH was supposed to come round and visit DD this evening, so far he hasn't shown up and no phone call either. What a complete tosser am so angry could cheerfully kill him! But I will phone him later and he will give me some lame excuse and make it out to be my fault. Tosser, tosser, tosser!!!!

Yes and then he'll complain to his mates that you won't let him see her, because if you point out that he was supposed to come and see her today, he'll say "I'll come now then" (at nine O'clock when she's asleep and you point out that she's asleep...

Welcome to the joys of single motherhood.

I feel truly naive, my family all said he would be like this and I didn't believe them. He hardly ever phones to see how she is either, only phines when he needs to ask about something!

I am beginning to feel really stupid and I am fed up of being made to feel guilty about the reasons we split. Was feeling better, now feeling crap again. I hate him!

As predicted he just phoned said he had to stay behind at school with some kids and his phone had run out of batteries so he couldn't call.

Cue big argument when I asked him why he couldn't have come back from his parents earlier on Monday (when he skived school) he played the "oh they are having problems again (his dad is an alcoholic wife beater) and I am not telling you that cos it's personal and you're doing my head in etc etc".

Turned it round to make me in the wrong, pointing out that HE has to work and how could he let his school kids down???? What about his own child FFS?

Then he said "if you're just going to have a go at me then I will not phone you, will just turn up without letting you know" I nipped that one in the bud quick! My only question to him, which he couldn't answer was "do I not have a right to be a bit upset for our DD that you didn't turn up and didn't let me know?"

Am now paranoid that I overracted and that he has a fair point as he works and I don't. But I know in my heart if that was me I would ring and I would probably turn up no matter what time cos I can't bear to be away from DD at all.

Feel even crapper, want to cry, I hate being shouted at.

You didn't overreact.

However, I would caution you about getting involved with arguments like this tbh. It takes a lot of energy which you can use better elsewhere and it leads to pointless, destructive arguments. It also puts you in a position where you are taking responsibility for his actions. If he doesn't turn up, however upset you are for your DD, it is absolutely out of your control. You cannot do a single thing about it. Confronting him about it puts you in the position of being a powerless nag - one which you don't want, you could stay married to him if you wanted that.

Try and get him to agree a schedule which he can stick to. Put the onus on him to make it realistic and acheivable so that he doesn't let his DD down. Then try and stand back and let him get on with it - you're not responsible for how he conducts his relationship with his DD, he is. (And when he realises that you're not going to get into a row about it, he will a) stop using it as a weapon to wind you up with and b) may actually realise that he has to take responsiblity for it himself and do so, so you have a win win situation for him, you and your DD.)

Thanks WBC, you're right I know I shouldn't get into these arguments, it makes me mad because still wants to believe we can try and get back together (we we can't by the way), but still treats me with no respect.

I have tried to put a schedule in place, one he suggested, that he comes over Tuesday nights and has her at his place every other weekend. So far he has not managed to stick to that and just calls me the day before and says can I come over tomorrow night? And has already missed last weekend (only been doing this for about 3 weeks!).

I feel that the only way I can deal with it is to, as you say, let him be responsible for his timetable with her. In fact I am actually loathe to ring him any more, except in an emergency as he just makes me mad. I just pity my poor DD, it's not her fault and ultimately she will pay the biggest price.

He wants us to wait 6 months to see if we could consider "trying again" as apparently he still loves me. However, I think I will try and get the divorce proceedings rolling as soon as possible as he has destroyed any love or respect I had for him.

Next time he says "can I come over tomorrow night?" say No.

He will then of course, complain that you don't let him see his dd and start mumbling about how F4J are right, but he has to learn that he can't mess you about on schedules. There is of course a need to be flexible as and when it's necessary and you can, but if he starts out being unreliable, he will continue to be like this for years and if you put up with it now, it will be far more difficult to try and re-negotiate a proper routine later on when you may need it more. Once you've got into a routine, then you can start doing each other favours with flexibility etc - when you know it's a genuine favour, not one of you taking the piss and not taking the commitment seriously.

Unfortunately it's difficult to do when only one person in the triangle is behaving like a reasonable adult!

anniemac, this sort of behaviour from "good" fathers is so common, and it is what leads to mothers withholding contact, because they get so pissed off and frustrated about being messed around themselves, and watching their children being let down and messed around.

I can understand this thing about not wanting the relationship to be controlled by the other party, but the grown-up thing to do, is swallow your pride and accept that because the child is living with someone else, inevitably that party is going to have some control and you are going to have to play along with it for the good of your children. Also, seeing your own children isn't babysitting, the residential parent has a perfect right to expect the other party to look after the children and allow her some free time, just as they did when married, however he feels about her personally. She didn't have the children by herself, looking after them is his responsibility too.

I find it incredibly depressing that men behave like this and no-one notices or comments on it adversely. Women behave badly and everyone notices and there are calls for the law to be changed, men behave badly and we're supposed to swallow it and no-one challenges them on it - and it goes on because they feel justified in putting their anger and rage and hurt above the good of their children. And they're still described as "devoted". I just think that if men like this, who are otherwise decent people, are challenged about this sort of crap and not allowed by the courts to get away with it, they would be shocked into realising that this is not an adult way to behave and stop doing it. When women behave like this, they are absolutely castigated, not described as good mothers or devoted.

But you know my ranty thoughts on the subject!

Anniemac, thanks for your reply! OH actually did the dumping, just didn't expect me to agree with him so quick lol!!!

Well anniemac I feel for this guy, but that still does not excuse the behaviour, if the woman did it she would be shot down in flames by F4J campaigners (not that I agree with all they say).

However, I know how difficult it is, due to selling the house before we split I now have nothing, husband has bought a newbuild flat worth nearly as much as the house we sold, (despite blaming me for not being able to afford the old house because I didn't want to work full time, but yes if we had asked for advice we could have downsized!!). I now live with DD at my parents because I have nothing, not a bean, not even any furniture because I couldn't afford to store the surplus so OH got rid of it all. I have to start from scratch, job hunting, learning to drive and eventually finding my own place to live. I have darling DD, but he has everything else! The only reason he won't challenge me for custody is A) He wouldn't be able to cope if he won and B)I don't think he would want the hassle, despite his protestations.

And still I try to do the best for OH where DD is concerned, because all I desperately want is for her to be happy!

He has actually apologised for being so rude to me over the phone the other day, but that just doesn't cut it. That is the exact behaviour I had to deal with every day, which is why I was so relieved that he called it a day. He has extreme mood swings and his philosophy is shout and scream one day and say sorry the next and all will be fine. He has alot to learn about relationships!

anniemac my comments weren't about the man you know, they were about men in general who behave in this way in the wake of a break up.

Sorry, I don't care how hurt and angry you are, that does not justify consciously using your children as weapons in your war against your ex for a few months while you adjust. Although I accept that lots of men don't realise that that's what they're doing, and would be shocked if it were suggested to them. (And would probably stop doing it when they realised that that is what they're doing.)

The thing is, when women use their kids as weapons (by denying contact or deliberately being difficult about it) it is noticed that this is a use of their children as weapons. The point I was making, is that when men do it, it's not even seen in that light - it's just seen as them being difficult or whatever, but it's not really seen in relation to the "using as weapons" business. Women who use their kids in the war against their exes are not excused on the basis that they're in shock and their whole life has been turned upside down. Neither should men be.