Baby Making Machines!!!

[MumsMan]

As the name suggests, I am a man. Sorry but I need a female perspective (but men are also welcome to take part in this discussion). Been on Mumsnet for months but first post today.

I know my dw since I was 15 and she 14. We started going out in 1987 at tender ages of 17 and 16. We held on to dear love for almost nine years as I was studying. She dropped out of school as soon as she fell for (and boy, was she crazy for me!). It was a whirlwind, no-holds-barred romance all the way. She was from a religious family so I respected her wish and we both got married virgins in 1996 (yes it is possible!). She told me all the time that she was saving the best for me!

As soon we got married, she said that sex was not every thing. I agreed and kept on loving her. We did have some sex but then she became pregnant. Our first child was born in our own brand spanking new two bedroom apartment in 1998. I did not disturb her during her pregnancy and gave her the chance to regain her strength. . So no sex for almost two years! Then we had some but she fell pregnant again with ds2. She loves babies, I love babies. This was our world and we loved each other. I went back to university to complete my second Masters and ds2 was born in Jan 2000. Beautiful little boy, he is. More happiness. We were mad for our children and we were mad for each other. There was only one thing missing and by now I had started to feel rejected by her as she just would not do it. Pill did not suit her so I started using contraception. She asked for another baby after a couple of years and I told her that there was no room in the flat for another one. But she insisted and I had to give up. So ds3 was born in 2003 and the next month of his birth, we moved to our big, spacious three bedroom house which came with a substantial monthly mortgage installment as well. Still I had no regrets as I loved my family. I had worked night shift since the birth of our first child as I wanted to give more time to my family. As a result, I never had a career in spite of being highly educated and hard working.

Within a year, she asked for another baby and this time I snapped. There was a lot of trouble but she persisted and eventually won. She became pregnant again but lost the child after a few weeks. Still she insisted on one more try and we had some wild sex for these last two pregnancies. She wanted me and she was up for it all the time. At one time I felt that I couldn't keep up with her! We had some wild moments, on kitchen stools, on the sofe, on dining table, in the garden etc. We were like rabbits, literally and I loved it. Finally our first female child was born in April this year. Beautiful little baby girl. Now we have 4 kids. The daughter is 7 months old and wifey is gone off me again. We had sex twice or three times in last seven months. It was our 19th anniversary yesterday. I bought flowers and covered the walls of our sitting room with one hundred copies of our best photo together taken 10 years ago. They are still there. She loved it. It was so original, so romantic. We loved eachother all day. But NOTHING happened during the night time, as usual I came downstairs, Mumsnet as usual. I am feeling down and rejected. What did I do that was wrong. We talk, we discuss everyhting and above all we love eachother to bits. What went wrong? Why can't we enjoy sex like other people do? Why is it so good when it is for making babies and why can't we enjoy it for it's own sake? Is it normal? Please help!

Hmm, not many people are up to much sex when they have a baby, from what I know. If your wife is still getting up in the night for one or more children, that's got to impact on her sex drive.

That being said, it sounds like sex is a lot more important to you than it is to her. Her drive just isn't as strong as yours. It probably doesn't help that you are presumably always asking for sex, she no doubt feels guilty about not having the same drive as you, but guilt isn't a very sexy feeling.

It sounds like the times she was really up for sex was while she was ttc - like she was more interested in the baby than the sex, iyswim.

You might want to try sensate focus type exercises. Or try for more physical closeness without trying for sex (cuddles, massages, kissing, etc etc)

hi, im the same as your wife... I have low sex drive really. Have you talked to her about it? Gently?

Mm, poor you. I sometimes think people who manage the no sex before marriage bit are probably just not very sexual. There are apparently more asexuals in the UK than gays and there is an association for the assexual. Difference in libido is one of the biggest causes of differences between people in marriage (and that can work the other way too - plenty of women want more than their husband wants).

I don't think there is a norm. Leaving children aside some couples want it every day and others once a month is fine. Probably an average when there aren't babies waking you in the night is about once a week I would guess in a long marriage. I was married for 19 years and we had some periods with less sex than others always only because of small children. I wanted sex when pregnant and my ex husband didn't and then once I'd had the baby I wasn't keen for a good few months, although I did still do it.

Can I just say how wonderful it is you've had 4 children? We had 5 (the last was twins).

So what can you do about it? It sounds like she isn't really very into sex even when she doesn't have children around. Has she been taught by a religion that sex is just for procreation and it is wrong for pleasure? That conditioning could may be undone. Or does she just not have a very high sex drive? Do you know if she masturbates? Even when I wasn't having much sex with my husband I (and he) would always be doing that for ourselves. That tends to indicate someone has a sex drive even if they're not doing it with the other person.

There are sex thearapists who can help. I sat next to someone at a dinner whose wife was one.. couples creep up to their house in the dark for their booked session.... doubt your wife would go for that.

The main issue is that she needs to know it's important to you and therefore it matters. It doesn't matter what something is if it's important to the person you love you should want to solve it for them. Can you talk to her when the children aren't around and say it is a serious matter and you want to solve it as you need to have sex at least once or twice a week and how does she think she can increase her desire to ensure that can be accommmodated? I always found when babies started to sleep at night and I didn't feel exhausted I felt like more sex and also getting some time to myself without children or housework helped me too to feel like an adult woman rather than a mother all the time.

Sometimes there are physical causes - a lot of couples would go to see their GP. I was going to suggest buying porn for her but I doubt you have the same kind of marriage I had so I bet that wouldn't go down very well.

Good luck. She shoudl do it but it's better if she does it because she wants to. Sometimes just doing it gets women in the mood though. Could you not once every couple of days just start cuddling her in bed etc. What happens? Do you try and then she pushes you off or have you not really tried much at all?

I think that there is more than one problem here - your expressed problem is lack of sex which, as others have said, is a common complaint in marriages. That's not to say it's not a problem, but unless you've been able to talk about it in a non-confrontational way, it maybe that your wife doesn't realise just how important it is to you.

She's also probably a bit knackered with 4 kids to look after - and believe me, going to bed because you desperately want to go to sleep and then being expected to have sex is not much of a turn on!

If she does know it's important to you she probably also feels very guilty and under pressure - so you do need to find a way to talk about it without the pressure on and not to get angry with her.

The second problem seems to me that there's an element of martyrdom - you've done all this for her (worked hard, bought ever bigger homes, given her the babies she wants and on top of this given up your career) - so therefore she should somehow repay you?

Be honest about your motivations and how you deal with her - it's very easy to put pressure on someone else and make them feel obliged/guilty and this is no way to make them feel sexually attracted to you.

Sorry to be so blunt but I hope you work it out.

your op, though long, doesnt really give any clue at all as to why she doesnt want to have sex with you.

so i cant offer many suggestions really.

would second the advice of NQC; dont badger her, try to be physically close to her without trying to 'get it on' (cuddles, massage, foot rubs, idle stroking while reading a book?). do that often. and stop trying to get into her knickers.

i freeze up straight away if i think any form of physical affection is simply a run up to sex.

couples therapy (talking rather than sex therapy which may be a bit much for her) sounds like a plan. sounds like youve never really talked about it in 19 years. may be time to start.

Hi Mumsman..... i think Xenia's point about the religious aspect perhaps making it hard for your wife to enjoy sex for pleasure's sake is a relevant one.....she might find it really hard to discuss these things with you if she has been brought up that it is something sacred and special ,to be given to a husband only......not that that is wrong..but may have coloured her view of sex

she may feel able to sex whilst trying to conceive as she is 'allowed' to do that, rather than just have sex becasue it is a pleasurable activity!

plus tiredness, perhaps she feels less cofident in her body with having had 4 children...

you sound like a lovely, romantic husband,..you might never regain that mad whirlwind passion.....but after 19 years, you have a lot to be thankful for and maybe should consider some marraige counselling to ope up to each other a bit more....

Thanks a lot all. Yes I know that I must not make her feel guilty at all. I used to get her all worked up by just touching her, now I don't. Still we kiss and cuddle all the time and I buy her flowers every weekend. I don't blame her for anything but I must confess I did when I was dropped all of a sudden in the beginning. I make her feel lovely and young all the time. Just came back from a shopping spree with all the kids. I bought her a lovely little jacket from Next and matching green cotton trousers. I was feeling guilty as last week I bought myself a pair of Abercrombie & Fitch cargoes from the States and I make sure that justice is done not only between the kids but between us two as well. We are not a stressed out, messed up couple. We look after ourselves and each other. I do all the cooking and she does the cleaning and looks after the kids. I used to do everything when she was working (till before the dd was born) but now she shares chores. At one time I was looking after three kids on my own, all day from mid day till 6:00 pm. (after working night shift).

I try very best not to be angry with her even in my imagination. I am not assexual, in fact I am quite quite horny and would not mind doing it on daily basis. She never masterbates, only used my hand a few times but never on her own. She does believe that sex is not clean and bodily fluids are disgusting (even her own).

People say that I spoiled her. I don't think so. I just love her the way I promised her I would all those years ago. Life is great but there is this big hole in the middle of an otherwise perfect relationship. To me sex matters a lot as not having sex makes me feel as if I am imprisoned within my own head. I feel like an animal running up and down his cage. It's been like this long enough. There has to be a way out. I want to be desired, to be made feel like some one who is needed all the time.

gosh...you sound very patient and very devoted.

if she believes sex is unclean and bodily fluids are disgusting..she is going to have a hard time enjoying sex.

perhaps some counselling for her, on her own, to talk about the way she feels about her self , her body & her sexuality....

because sexuality is about more than bodily fluids ins;t it?

it is about touch and emotion and feelings...she needs to work through the feelings if disgust..which is a really strong word and conveys how deep seated this problem is....

your patience is really to be admired...IMO

Hi,
I think I can relate to your wife a lot
I have been brough up by conservative parents who taught me that if I was having sex it had to be with the one who would become my husband. That somehow, it was 'dirty & bad'.
I know it has a considerabe impct on me and on my sex drive as my DH is the second man I slept with. I can't manage to be as relaxed amd enjoy myself in the same way I did with my first bf .
I know about it, I am quite aware BUT I find very very difficult to actually let go and even knowing, on a rational point of view, that sex isn't bad, that have a bf before getting married is not bad etc... I also feel much more at ease with makinglove when it is with the intention of being pregnant. It somehow makes things acceptable.
Now, what I know is that I really appreciate when my DH is getting close (cuddles, holding my hand when having a walk...). And it helps me feeling more relaxed.
I also resent feeling pressed to have sex because I know, as it is the case for you, that it is important for my DH and that he must have felt rejected by my constant 'NO'. Because I love him, I tend to force myself but I find that it doesn't lead to very satisfying sex (so doesn't make me think 'Oh yes, let's do it again!').
What I also know, is that there will be no improvement if she doesn't want things to change AND if she is not convinced, at least rationally, that having sex for pleasure is OK. Last ting but not the least, YOU HAVEN'T DONE ANYTHING WRONG!!!!! She is living, as I am, with ideas that her parents have taught her and all these preconceived ideas are very difficult to shake. Unfortunatly, the best you can do is staying at he sides, go at her pace and help her, when she is ready, to move on.
On the other side I would recommend a book called I love you but I am not in love with you'. It is obvioulsy not the situation you are in but it has a very nice first part dedicated on how to make someone feel special and desirable. Why not having a chat you your dw about it and let her know what makes YOU feel good? I know it will probably not lead to sex but it might help you feeling loved and desired.
Re the idea of seing a sex counsellor, I think you will have to investigte that one very carefully. I don't think that it will be on any help if she really thinks that sex for pleasure is bad. You can propose her that sort of solution but she needs to take the decision and be happy with it.

Good luck, you seem to be a great guy but I can only advice patience.

Oh dear....

"She never masturbates, only used my hand a few times but never on her own. She does believe that sex is not clean and bodily fluids are disgusting (even her own)".

She can't therefore have much of a sex drive at all and perhaps never has had whether there were babies or not.

We all know what a lot of married men and women do in this situation which is obviously not the best solution. You need compromise on both sides. My ex husband wanted sex every day and we probably ended up over the 19 year marriage having it about twice sometimes three times a week which I think is fair enough. The family holidays when he wanted to set records of 3 and 4 times a day did get a bit much for me.....

The point is that having sex is part of why people marry and if you're not having it (which seems to be the case with legions of female mumsnet posters out of choice) that's a problem. It's not normal.

I fear she'll never be changed into someone who thinks about sex every 2 or 3 hours. I think people are made or born like that whatever their upbringing or religion. She might if she realises how important this is increase sex to once every fortnight to please you but it's not fun to have sex with someone who doesn't want ot have it withyou. It starts in the mind/head much more than physically I suppose with most women.

You're not doing anything wrong but nor is she if she doesn't have the desire (although I would say and no one will agree with me on here) that she should let you get on with it whether she wants it or not. I expect that's mumsnet heresy so I'll duck off back to writing my bills.

at Xenia. So MumsMan's wife should just put out, whether she wants to or not?

It does sound like she enjoyed sex during conception. Is she still religious now? Is there any hope of getting her some therapy to help sort out her feelings about sex?

From what I know, your sex drive isn't just an innate biological drive, it has a lot to do with your feelings and opinions about sex (and about yourself, and about your partner). Yes, it's possible she just isn't very interested in sex, but it does sound like she was quite lively when she was ttc ...

Sorry I find it difficult to 'get on with it' whether the other person wants me or not. It is like charity and my generosity and devotion can not be repaid with charity. I would rather live without sex than be loved out of charity or even consideration.

Well, quite!

Do you have sex at all these days?

I do find (from my experiences and other people's) that the female sex drive can work very differently from men's. By which I mean, the longer a man goes without, the more he wants it (in general), while it seems that for some women, the longer we go without, the more we can live without it.

Does your wife like her appearance? Does she take care of herself, in whatever ways suit her style and taste?

at Xenia - did you really 'put out' under duress 3 times a week for 19 years and not want any of it?? do you really think thats a reasonable way to go about life? blimey woman. now ive heard everything.

NQC is poss spot on with the longer we go without, the more asexual we become, btw.

really, this makes me bloody pissed off at stupid parents putting these stupid uptight unhappy-making ideas into their children heads. i do hope your own daughter is not being brought up to loathe sex and herself and her own bodily fluids.

you do sound really quite level headed and reasonable about this, i commend you.

i dont know - i think this has to come from her. she has to want to feel differently about it and get counselling to help her undo this conditioning and learn to love and enjoy her body - and yours.

and if anyone can find a way to help her to want to get help, i think its you. i hope you can.

NQC, you are absolutely right as far as the irregular sex and diminishing desire are concerned. I have also noticed this. But still I would be very reluctant to beg for it. I believe that once I get her going, she will be OK but till then I'll have to beg and I am not willing to do that.

Your DW and my DP should get together MM; they'd be in chaste heaven!

Hang on. I didn't say I didn't like sex. I'm in the category that does actually. I just said every 2 or 3 days is great not every day.

Also I was really just trying to make the point others have made - sometimes once you get started you like it so you need the man to initiate it, not beg but initiate. I don't think men have to ask. They just have to start. I suppose if you get pushed off too much then you give up trying. It's all very difficult.

But would say to men and women here who don't put out in marriage, if you don't there's more chance (however morally repugnant this is) that your spouse will get sex elsewhere. So go to the GP and get the lack of drive sorted out...not that I know anything as I'm divorced.

Xenia - you did say: "(although I would say and no one will agree with me on here) that she should let you get on with it whether she wants it or not. "

which is a bit on the chocking side. even the OP was taken aback.

but having read back on your posts, i have overstated what you said, so i apologise

and LOL at 'what do i know? im divorced anyway'

shocking, as opposed to actually choking

I'm going to defend Xenia here, and say sometimes you have to have sex because your DH needs it. I am guilty of not being too bothered, but I know DH has needs!

I'm confident he wouldn't go elsewhere, but sometimes I have sex when I'm not really bothered - just to make him happy.

And, btw - I usually have a pretty good time once we start!!

each to their own i suppose

i think it depends massively wether your dp/h expects you to orgasm each time you have sex....that can be a huge responsibility and pressure, especially if you didn't really feel like having it in the first place.

fwiw, i too was brought up with the opinion that sex was only for inside a married relationship, and then only for children, but i managed to overcome this belief and now sex is great!!

mumsman - reiterating the question that someone else asked, is she still religious now?

I totally agree that you can start having sex and be a bit indifferent about the whole thing (but not opposed), and then warm up and be fine.

As Nappies Galore says, I hope your children aren't getting these same negative ideas about sex ...

Maybe you're trying a bit too hard to please her? There is some truth in the saying 'treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen' you know!

Suspect that may be a bit heretical so I'm off to join Xenia writing her bills (if she'll have me)

Just wanted to add I am generally not interested and poor dp has to take the initiative but I do enjoy it very much usually once in the mood. This is something we have talked about and it is a compromise or perhaps more an acknowledgment that if I take the initiative it just doesn't work for me so he still feels rejected!

However, when TTC I was really horny - I'm not sure why it works like that I think it was the "excitemet" of whether it worked or not! I was brought to have massive issues with this but I choose to try and overcome them so we can have a better relationship.

My advice is that you discuss the situation and see if she will agree that it is a problem and find out whether she wants to do anything about it. If she won't try and resolve this issue then you have a problem in your relationship. Although you have to accept that even if she tries to change that it will probably never be how you'd like it to be.