Don't think I like or love DH very much at the moment (sorry it's so long)

[petunia]

We've had lots of "run-ins" with DHs parents over the 13 years we've been together. They couldn't really cope with him having a life of his own when at the age of 28, I became his first girlfriend. They don't drive and when we first started going out, he really was their taxi service. He thought nothing of driving over 100 miles in an evening so that they could spend weekends at his house and take them out on outings. The only thing was that we had so many outings with them, that I began to wonder who I was going out with!
When we got engaged, his Mum threw the most almighty tantrum. I guess I should have known how things were going to be because I walked out of the house expecting DH to follow, he instead stayed with his Mum. And after I returned, he stayed in the lounge while his parents told me everything that was wrong with me.
We've had several tantrums since. There's never any apologies and in the next visit, everyone pretends that it's all "happy families". DH now thinks that his parents don't or have ever done anything wrong, and if I do moan about something they've done, he twists it round to make it my fault.
Last year, his mother said something following a miscarriage in June (I've posted it in the thread about the worst thing that your MIL has said/done to you). DH didn't see anything wrong in what she said and even though I was in tears over it (this was a week after the m/c), he told me to "pull myself together". Luckily, I've only had to see them 4 times since then.
I really hate his parents. We've now got another visit from them looming. I felt that MIL crossed a line with what she said and would really like to avoid them, at least for some of the visit. I told DH this on Thursday. He went in to this rant about what would his parents think if I wasn't there. Many things were said but one of the things he said was that all families had "disagreements" and everyone had to move on, and not go about with "chips on their shoulders". I said that part of married life, was sticking up for each other, putting each other first (or I thought that was part of married life, maybe I'm wrong). He said, no it wasn't, not if it meant "starting conflicts". In other words, the reason why he's never stuck up for me and the children or asked his parents to apologise, is because he doesn't want to start a "conflict" (but haven't the ILs started the conflict by throwing a tantrum in the first place?)
I can't believe he's said this, but at the same time, it confirms everything I suspected. That when push comes to shove, his parents have always come first and always will.
So sorry this has been so long. I'm kind of feeling very about it all.

Does your dh have any siblings?

My MIL sounds ver similar (and also said upsetting things after my m/c) but my dh is completley on my side and knows what his mum is like. It must be so tough, knowing that your dh is firmly in their camp.

He needs to cut the apron strings tbh.

Poor you. My dh used to have a strange relationship with his parents too. Like your ils, they were very dependent on DH when we lived nearby and his mother was mistress of catty remarks. She acted like the jilted wife too when dh and I first met, weird isn't it?

In my case dh put me and the children first and the relationship with his parents is now in the realms of normal (plus we live miles and miles away now) so I'm in a slightly different situation to you but I do sympathise. And he treats them like toddlers because they behave like toddlers really.

Can you just not go? Does dh realise how strongly you feel about this? Does he get how his parents are? I don't think you can ask someone to 'choose' between their parents and their spouse, but in any case, it shouldn't be about choosing should it, since they're v different relationships. Could you agree with your dh that you will go but that you want to agree some boundaries, i.e. if MIL says something awful you say to her "I don't like that remark" or "that was rude and I am offended" and that he will either back you up or, at the very least, agree not to get involved AT ALL or take sides but let you sort it out between yourselves?

and ikwym about it affecting your relationship, mummys boys aren't sexy are they? I think my dh (then a fairly new dp) took me seriously when I said how unattractive I found it.

He has 1 sister who has always lived in the same area. She got married fairly young (no children through choice, so I'm the one that's given the ILs grandchildren) but from what I can gather, she's never really done outings. DH did outings and holidays (including the 3 of them booking a holiday when we'd been going out 3 months, didn't think about asking whether I wanted to go, or go with his parents. I was expected to like it or lump it!)

I haven't got many words of wisdom for you but I sympathise and don't think you're guilty of starting conflicts from what you've said.

It's understandable that DP feels torn but if push comes to shove, I happen to believe that a married person's first loyalty is to their spouse and children ..... after all, they were chosen.

Given what was said after your m/c, and DH's reaction to it, it seems as if he is choosing well and truly to bury his head in the sand, and is refusing to admit that his parents could ever be in the wrong. I suppose it is just about possible that she wasn't deliberately being insensitive after the m/c and just worded it all wrong - but the tantrum on your engagement and the lecture about all of your faults sounds like it was deliberate.

If she's thrown tantrums since, what exactly happens ? Is it verbal, or is she literally throwing things about and stamping her foot ? What happens next ? ...... have you ever told her how upsetting and rude this sort of behaviour is ? And what does DP do on these occasions - does he just ignore it, or does she only do it when he's not there so it turns into a "her word agianst yours" situation ?

I actually don't think there's any harm in you making your feelings to MIL clear, but if she ignores these, then I definitely think DH should be supprting you.

She sounds like a bloody old bag ..... and if, no matter what, DH refuses to accept she is doing anything wrong, then he sounds like a weak-livered mummy's boy.

wickedwaterwitch- I don't think it's the fact that they might say something in the future, I think it's everything that's happened in the past. It's like it's all fallen in to place. I really thought that he'd say something after what she said after my miscarriage, but no. It isn't that I've ever expected him to choose, it's just that I always thought he'd stick up for me. It's what he expects me to do with my family. But then my family haven't thrown the tantrums.

I know this may sound like the trite answer, but seriously, would he go to couples counselling with you? It sounds like this situation is slowly eroding your relationship and having a third party involved could really help him see this.

catsmother- it is verbal, usually after a dose of FIL rubbing her up the wrong way first! It's her that then explodes. Her favourite phrase she uses during these tantrums to DH is, "If you're not man enough to tell us when we've done something wrong....." This straight away makes him take their side, after all what "man" wants to be accused by his mother of not being one? I can't stand her or what it makes him become when she says that.

my mil is the absolute nightmare from hell, she is always putting me down to dh, and I have seen a couple of nasty emails that she has sent to him about me, yet he always says that he wont get involved and I have to sort it out with her directly, i never get support from him, which is hurtful and i do sympathise. Basically whenever mil is nasty i confront her and we have had several arguments, i just have to fight my own battles and stand up to her by myself

jabberwocky- I don't think he would. He's so convinced himself that I'm the one that's the problem. He's told me when I get upset that I should get help with my "nerves". Funny, how I didn't have a "nerves" problem before meeting him and his parents!

I think couples counselling would be wise. If he's so sure it's your problem, then surely the counsellor will help sort that out then, right?

lupo- I'm beginning to realise that that's what I'm going to have to do. I just can't believe that my DH wouldn't even stick up for his own children. One of the things I also said was what if one of our children (we have 3 DDs) came to us in 15-20 years time and said that she was being treated the same way as I have, would he expect her to play at "happy families". He said that was rubbish! (don't get that answer actually!) So it's OK for DDs not to have to put up with it, but I'm expected to.

Sorry, petunia. Men can be really reluctant to go to therapy, I know. My dh probably wouldn't go either. It might help you just to go on your own to learn better how to deal with her (and him!) when these situations occur. I am horrible at confrontations and then seethe inside and carry grudges, etc. I'm doing CBT for PTSD but I think it has carried over into other aspects of my life.

For the better, I should say!

If he won't have counselling then I doubt he'll change. You observe the man before marriage and those who have never left the parental nest you avoid like the plague... known rule/thing to check.

As you have one like this the only way to deal with it is withdrawal. Just don't see his parents. YOu don't have to. Just go out when they're there. Say until they apologise you won't see them. Tough if he doesn't like it. His loyalty obviously lies more with them than you so he'll have to live with the consequences of that. No need to argue about it - just make the statement. You won't be seeing them again until they apologise and that you married him not his parents. Then think of some lovely things to do for you when he's with them.

Thanks everyone for your posts.

Xenia- the thing was I thought that it would be OK because he had his own house. Guess I should have realised though when there were so many outings with them and he took his washing to mummy to do!
I think it's going to be that I'll have to do the "detach" approach. I tend to end up seeing them because DH can't control 2 DDs together and DD3 is breastfed at the moment. After this, I'm determined that he'll be visiting by himself when the children are older. Whether the children want to visit will be up to them, of course. At least I'll give them the choice. I've already told him that I'll do visits (to a max of 4 times a year), but the rest of the time, I don't want to hear them mentioned. The minute the door closes after these visits, they no longer exist to me.

Your dh sounds like a total prat.
I don't mean to hurt your feelings but for f**ks sake why did you marry such a spineless man in the first place.
Why do so many women my bf being one of them marry someone with worrying traits and then think that they will change - they never do.
You must be living with this black cloud that never really goes away, what a dreadful strain.
Do you feel strong enough to call his bluff?
Let him know that he has to choose what is more important in his life, his wife and children or his bloody mother.
If he chooses her kick him to the curb you are worth more than that and if he can't see it he deserves to loose you.

missymoosal- I know what you mean (no you didn't hurt my feelings! I'm thinking he's a bit of a to$$er myself!) At the moment, I really don't know why I married him. I think I tried to reason that I was marrying him and not his parents and probably did think things would get better. I think as well that after that engagement tantrum, his parents acted as if nothing had happened and seemed to return to being nice. Little did I know that we'd average a tantrum a year after that.

You sound too nice to be stuck with him it's about time he put you and your feelings first for a change. That 'nerves' comment deserves a major slap all on its own.
I have had my share of ups and downs over the last few years and the main thing that got me through was my dh's love and support.
You deserve a man who will be there for you not shitting himself if his mummy opens her mouth.

I would like to be more constructive but... I can't. Relate may help, it did help us for a while but after a few weeks DH just forgot and we went back to square one. Dh left it too late to act on his mother behaviour and one day the thing finally exploded and since then there has been no way back.

Sadly, although DH finally stood by me on the that day, it was too late, our marriage has never been the same, although I'm no longer that annoyed with his family, I have not being able to come to terms with the idea that he preffered to let them be nasty to me rather than upset them by asking them not to do it.

In Dh's case he is terrified of upsetting his mother, so... instead of saying he doesn't want to do something he just blames it on me... i.e. last time we visited I mentioned twice about visiting his GM but as he didn't say anything else I assumed he didn't want to. Anyways, we went to visit MIL and she corners me and tell me off for forbiding his son to see his GM, while DH heard all of it but didn't even dare to open his mouth, so... I'm not sure whether she made it up or if it was DH who told her the lie I didn't want to go even when it was me who was insisting.

So will be following this thread...

Print off and show your DH this thread. He should be sticking up for you all the way, Petunia. Nobody should have to put up with rudeness whether it's family or not. They should be showing you massive courtesy and respect as their son's wife and the mother of their grandchildren.

Married life IS about putting your partner first when someone else bad mouths them. What a spineless twerp your DH sounds.

Know that you're not alone. I never really cottoned on that DH was a mummy's boy until about a month after we got married. It's MASSIVELY unattractive and puts a strain on your relationship. I'm slowly beginning to understand that however clingy and needy they are, it is my DH that is really the problem because it is he that needs to kick them into touch. It's his responsibility as it is your DH's. I can't see mine doing it though and he still telephones his dear mama almost every day. Spew.

It's really out of order IMHO, for a parent to interfere in a grown up child's life in any way unless invited. I think it's so dysfunctional and ultimately, as you're finding destructive. What nightmares your PIL sound.

It looks like you can't expect any support from your DH. So, why not arm yourself with a few curt, short retorts to any rude comments. It's been suggested already but a "How very rude of you." or "Please try to be more courteous," may sound snotty but it shuts them up.

Great idea to stay away from them too if they upset you. I'm keen to stay away from my PIL as much as possible but can't figure out how to do that until my child (soon to be children) are much older.

Good luck and get preparing those shut-em-up one liners. You've got nothing to lose afterall apart from letting them know you're simply not to be messed with.

chandra- I feel bitter that I've spent the last 13 years thinking that my husband and children come first, thinking that he always thought the same. I never thought DH would actually say that we don't. I've kind of had a similar thing to you (all these past situations are put into perspective now). A few years ago, MIL saw all our anniversary cards on our lounge-shelf and realised that they were the only ones who hadn't sent us one. She and DH had their backs to me, so didn't know I heard all this but I heard her apologise for not sending one. DH lowered his voice and said as a reply, "Petunia puts the cards there". I thought it was an odd thing to say. Why couldn't he have just said, "It's OK". But then I realised that he wanted it so that if his mother threw a tantrum, he wanted me to take the sh!t for it.
Like you, I feel that things won't ever be the same after this and as missymoosal said, it does cause a black cloud over everything.

Winky- I think it's part of the problem that I've just been too nice about things. I always did think that as the mother of their (only) grandchildren, that would entitle me to a bit more respect. But it doesn't. In a way MIL takes out her resentment that her DD hasn't given her grandchildren on me. And MIL resents it that my parents have that closer bond because I'm their daughter. I've been a right scapegoat for everyone really.
I realise I've got to stand up for myself a bit more now.
Got to go and give DDs a bath. Will be back later.

Just wondering about "Why DH is so scared of his mum" maybe this issue needs tackling first.

I find it very hard to argue with my mum which I know arises from my relationship with her when I was younger.

Before I start I want to make it clear that I think he is in the wrong, and that this is obviously become quite an unpleasant thing for you to have to deal with (both their behaviour and his). But Toady is right, why he is so scared of his mum is what drives all of this. As I am sure you are aware children have a natural propensity to adore their parents (look at the way your kids look at you!) and they cling to the ?good? image of a parent above and beyond anything. This is a very strong psychological desire and holds true in even the most appalling cases of parental abuse. We are so keen not to rock this image of our parents that we carry it through to adulthood. To question their ?goodness? means in some way questioning our self structure (our own ideas about who we are). I know people who have had months and months of therapy just to be able to finally admit that there parents were not who they should have been. It takes a great strength to question you parents- particularly (as is the case with most dysfunctional parents) they will do everything they can to prevent you questioning them/changing the status quo). It will be a big undertaking for your husband?..
This is not to give him a cop out. We are all responsible for our own behaviour and actions no matter what. But perhaps the best way for you to help yourself is to somehow help him get help. Relate would be a great starting point (if he can willingly go) and might help him seek some individual help?? In the mean time you will be able to change nothing as the outsider to this dynamic and your best bet as others have suggested might be to steer clear?.

I haven't read any of the rest of the thread but the immediate thing that jumps out at me is that your DH will avoid conflict at any cost with his mother. Unless he is prepared to disagree with his mother some of the time then he is not having an authentic relationship with her, he is just her "yes" man. I don't know quite how you resolve this but I am totally on your side about this. He needs to grow up.