"But we took you to Stately Homes!" Survivors of Dystfunctional Families

[Meerka]

It's May 2015, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
March 2015

Dec 14- March 15

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Somermummy1

The best thing you can do for your children is to continue to protect them from your parents malign influences. They were not good to you and they will not be good for your children to be at all around either.

Grandparents should only be in the child's lives if they are actually emotionally healthy to be around, they growing up seeing their nan and granddad continuously disrespecting you as their mother will do them no favours at all.

Your mother's e-mail (and card for that matter) could be construed as hoovering behaviour; it was NOT sent out of any concern for your wellbeing. Such is designed to bring you back into the dysfunctional fold, do not fall for such tactics and continue to ignore her e-mail. ANY response from you will be used by her against you so do not reply to it under any circumstances. Infact I would now block her e-mail address from your inbox.

I don't think it's awful, Peppermint.

When my parents split, I struggled (I was Dad's golden girl, and I didn't see the level of harm he was doing to me). I remember my Mum took me on a long drive when I was really losing it one day because I've always been calmer in the car. She explained to me that even though he hadn't died, I had to take the time to grieve, because the reality I thought I was getting had suddenly been torn away from me.

I heard it again in both lots of therapy. It's OK to mourn the loss of the family you never had. In your head, there's this idea of what a family or parents should be; supportive, loving, caring etc. When you come to the realisation that the people you got are none of these things, then you have to mourn that loss.

I think that was the point of my yesterday post. I think I've gone through that grieving process now and though I'm still sad about losing my dad, I'm sad about losing him in the same way that I'm sad about losing Grandpa, who loved me and who is actually dead.

In my head, I've been able to accept the reality that Dad, as a father figure, isn't there. He never really has been in any real way (though I'll admit we had good times too). He won't ever be again. I've mourned him, and now I'm getting on with my life.

That process takes a long time. It takes years when you lose someone, and this is the same. I think it's probably harder when they pop into your life randomly to stir up that pain again, and I'm lucky I haven't got that to the extent that other people have.

But anyhow, don't feel you're awful for thinking that way. It's a normal and necessary thing to go through.

Thank you

At work now so mini post but so appreciate all your replies

Spotted inspirational quote in meantime also

"It's better to let someone walk out of your life than to walk all over you"

That's what I'm focussing on today !

Thank you again you marvellous people xxxx

I remember the exact same for me years ago pincushion and its the inevitable result of letting go of the attachment we had to something that wasn't real, the harmful pretence, whilst ignoring the undercurrent of pain thats being caused. you had a very wise mummy!!!!

I was shocked at how exactly the same as losing someone to death it is, but it was so different also in that there was peace and calm too, there was no longer the daily turmoil and conflict and it was a relief. This was years ago for me, and I have described it this way to others, I think its the first time i have come across someone else saying it. It should have been obvious perhaps, that its the same as losing any attachment, only this one really does come with such huge benefits.

At times I was very angry too, the times when I struggled and resented the way i had been treated and blamed for everything yet noone else was taking any responsibility, it was very hard to struggle on alone, but it was so worth it.

Weird too, as they are not dead, they moved away and haven't shared where they are, but they're not dead (AFAIK). A very weird outcome that i had never expected to have in my life.

yes, far better... '... let them walk out of your life' somer

Sorry not had chance to get on recently, but belated thanks for the kind posts earlier in the week.

Somer I'm not sure what the best thing to do is but could you get your DD to a thank you letter/drawings for her card rather than you having to say thank you?

Pincushion I have two DC (20 & 16) and as they have got older they have started to notice things and have been on the end of comments. I was always conscious not to say anything in front of them as I didn't want to cloud their judgment.

Does anyone have any insights on narcissism and severe mental illness? My mother who i'm sure is narcissistic also has issues with severe depression/anxiety/delusions/bi-polar/hoarding, the CMHT seem to focus on making sure she isn't in crisis e.g is stable and that she's on appropriate medications, i don't think narcissism is really on their radar.

To give you an example, recently on the day of a family members wedding she decided to tell everyone that she was going to kill herself, now i think that's narcissistic - if your really going to kill yourself you don't tell everyone, especially on a special day but the community MH team will take that seriously, which i guess gets her more attention.

I can't decide if she's really ill or just being narcissistic.

First time poster. Relationship with my father over the past few years has dramatically deteriorated. Growing up my mother was a narcissist and I was undoubtedly the scapegoat. I took an overdose at 14 and she found out what I had done and came to hospital to warn me 'not to tell anyone'. Then when my parents divorced when I was 21 I ended up on a psychiatric ward due to my guilt that father had stayed for mine and my sisters sake. Anyway back to present day, he just keeps doing things that hurt me so much. I always thought that he was the good guy who was unable to protect me, but over the past few years he

1. Totally discredited me in front of a large group of people by telling me that I should not have children because of my type1 diabetes. 2)When I challenged him about this (after having a child born with a serious medical condition that had nothing to do with my diabetes) he said 'well maybe it would have been best not to have her.
2. My sis was having an affair (which he knew about) but the guy was awful to her, making comments to demean and belittle her, totally destroyed her self esteem and making her neglectful of her DC'S. I told F about this in the hope that he would talk some sense into her, but told in confidence. He immediately called her and gave her a real blasting telling her what I had said. Two days later my sis and I had an argument about the DC's and she physically attacked me in my own home. She rang and told him what had happened (she beat me around the head and due to an eye condition related to my diabetes this could have had serious implications). He never called to see if I was OK and instead drafted an email for her to say that she did not want to see me and sent it to me by mistake. There are lots of other things he has done to make me feel like shit but he has always been very generous with money, allowing me to give up work which helped me a lot as not only do I have the two conditions already mentioned but have also had part of my foot amputated. Anyway we had a disagreement again yesterday and I am just about at the end of my tether. He has said and done some awful things and I just don't know what to do anymore. When my mother died I felt a sense of freedom and now it just seems that he has taken over her cruel and manipulative ways. Any suggestions?

EssexMummy123 my understanding is that Narcissism is rarely picked up by MH professionals as the Narc's are always good at hiding what they are and consequently they tend to get diagnosed with other issues. In addition there is no treatment and Narcs tend to have no idea what they are. Tbh her behaviour does seem very narcissistic.

I would cut him off altogether but that is far easier said than done. If you cannot do that I would maintain as low a contact as possible and raise your own boundaries re him even higher.

I would not accept any further funds from him; these were likely never given to you without attached and unspoken conditions.

He and his late ex wife have done their two daughters (not just to say their own families too) a great deal of emotional harm. Women like his late wife cannot do relationships so the men they get together with are either discarded or are also narcissistic.

I agree with Attila, Fedup.

I think it's time to take a step back and to start having the relationship on your terms. So if you can decide only to answer his calls when you want to talk to him, and filter his email and only read the messages once a week.

It feels like you are, because it's ingrained, but you are NOT obligated to speak to anyone or respond to anyone unless you want to.

Essex, I don't know what to suggest. I have bipolar disorder and it's treated by a psychiatrist. I'm not sure that narcissism would be. I'm not sure it's treatable. Maybe by something like CBT, but even then, a key part of narcissism is not accepting or believing you have it, and with out that, all the therapy in the world isn't going to fix you.

Hi. I have been reading this thread and unsure weather to post but think i'll give it a shot. Bit of background, parents split when i was 4 and i regular contact with dad until i was about 7 but can say they were terrible years. He never raised a hand to me but put the fear of god into me. He used to theaten to have my mum killed if i ever stoppes seeing him and threaten my grandparents. He would pretend that he wasn't going to take me home. He even went as far as saying that one day he would come and get me from school at lunchtime and we would disappear. I nevertold my mum what happened exactly but i used to cry and wet the bed in days leading up to seeing him and mum eventually put a stop to it. He never queationed it and never tried to get access, now i think this is because he knew he would be found out how sick he was. I have been NC since i was 7, almost 31 now. I have two Dc aged 6 and 3 and i look at them and wonder what sort of sick person could do that to a child? I would throw myself under a lorry before i let anybody harm them. I think i have started thinking about as i was their ages when it all happend. Growing up i was very shy and lived in fear that something bad would happen to my family. I also keep thinking about finding him and confronting him but that might open a whole can of worms.
sorry for rambling.

Oh lollyj i feel like my problems are nothing compared to what you went through. I want to scoop up that little girl you were and give her a hug, those years must have been hell. Not sure that confronting him would help, would probably deny that it happend as you remembered and I suspect that he would only hurt that little girl still seeking justice again.

I'm glad I've found this thread again, I lurk occasionally but have never posted. My childhood has been on my mind a lot recently and I find myself getting quite angry

It's all unresolved. I think that's why it won't go away in my head. My parents never mention the abuse and neglect we all suffered and they are so aloof. They're enjoying their lives while we just live ours (my siblings and I) and we just never mention it. It makes me want to scream.

I'm going no contact with them in a few months. I've set a timeline that I'm happy with. They won't care, they certainly won't notice for a long time, even.

I don't know whether to confront them, tell them why, or quietly disappear.

Good luck with it, Ostentatious. I think having a run up to these things is quite a good idea.

Fedup- i think you are right and that mixed with fear is probably what stops me. Strange that i've only began to think about things in last year but i put that down to having dc of my own.
i feel lucky that i have a strong dm and she knew there was a problem unsure why she never pressed for answers or what were the reasons i gave her. We don't really talk about him but i know that she left him. I also have a wonderful step-father who has showed me what dads are ment to be like.

On and off lurker jumping in here.

Ostentatious - I'd say handle it however you feel comfortable. If you would feel like it would be a 'cleaner' break to confront and tell them what's happening then do that, but don't do it for their sakes, like you owe them an explanation - if you would be happier to quietly disappear then do that :)

I had an odd experience recently. I've been NC with my parents for over 2 years, with minimal contact with a couple of siblings. My mum's sister and her family were in the UK and asked to drop by and see me on their way elsewhere. I don't know them very well but have always quite liked them. My aunt left the UK in her early twenties to go to Canada, and I feel like she escaped her family and healed in some way.

So I saw them, and had a pretty intense conversation about it all. The weird thing was that when I said what they had to do for me to be willing to get back in contact (she'd asked, and I'd shrugged and said 'be nice'), she said she couldn't say that to my mum, and that she was scared of her. I said how do you think I feel? And she said that I was my mother's child and it was normal for children to be scared of their parents! Somehow it was worse for her to be scared of her sister than it was for me to be scared of my mum!

I've been thinking about that exchange a lot, and how much it sums up the whole problem. And also how my aunt clearly didn't escape as much as I thought she had.

Hi all, just a update on what's happened, told my mother last week I was pregnant (recently gone lc with family due to their toxicity)
she never responded to my text nor did I get a phonecall etc, so she called yesterday and just asked how I was feeling and that was it!! She changed the subject to dB's and what's going on in their lives ( they are the golden children and they have golden lives and golden grandchildren) and off she went home!! Was like she was rubbing it in my face usual. I shouldn't be surprised cos I gave up expecting anything more from her and scary thing is im not as upset as I thought I would be.
Think its finally dawning on me that nothing is going to change and it's not my fault I grew up with parents who made me feel unloved and scared and unwanted, DM has never even asked me why I have backed away from them since Christmas she doesn't want to know nor those she care, she just needs little bits of information of my life to be able to tell extended family members, as harsh as that sounds it's the truth I told my friend this today and she kept saying I was wrong but I know I'm right,
My dh thinks I should say it straight up to DM about the way I'm treated but I told him I would be at nothing only would upset myself that I'm just going to be cast as the attention seeker the drama queen, trouble maker etc etc all the names I was called since a child when I stuck up to my parents or stuck up for my little brother my fellow scapegoat when he was beaten black and blue by df. Am I finally accepting this and moving on? Those this happen?

And she said that I was my mother's child and it was normal for children to be scared of their parents!

Pointy I know you know this, but it's really, really not.

Somehow it was worse for her to be scared of her sister than it was for me to be scared of my mum!

What a self-centred woman. Not a chance for solidarity, but somehow you were supposed to stump up some sympathy?

Am I finally accepting this and moving on? Those this happen?

Golden I'm glad to read this, and yes, these things do happen. I've accepted my dad will never change, and I'm OK with that. He's gone now in the sense of any father/daughter relationship.

I agree with you that saying what has gone wrong will not change anything, and in all likelihood she will twist it and become the poor, innocent victim, and that can really sting.

Hi all, sorry for dipping in and out but I was on a couple of weeks ago about whether or not to move house nearer to my sister and the consensus was definitely no. The thing is that now a place has come up there with such low rent that it'd allow me to save so much more for a deposit to buy a house which is my big goal financially. Money is tight as a single parent and my current landlords are thinking about hiking my rent apparently. I don't know what to do!

I was all set to stay put and just fob them off about moving but now I'm really torn. It'd be close enough to where she is now but she'll be moving further away soon, and I know that once she has kids of her own she'll take far less interest in me so I think I can limit contact anyway. Houses with rent that cheap never come up where I am now. I'd be as happy with that area as with where I am now when it comes to everything else, shops, schools etc. What will I do?!

Why has a place come up with such low rent, there's reasons for that (none of them are good) so it would be worth thoroughly investigating before at all committing yourself. If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.

I would still not move anywhere near your sister; it may be that she will not move (do you know for definite she is moving?) and go on to have children either.

She has not been a good sister to you at all and I would still keep my distance. She will continue to try and stifle you if you move anywhere near her. It also does not follow that her children, even if she does have any, will become friends to and with your DD.

Thank you Attila. Yes there has to be something wrong with it, it makes no sense otherwise. And it wouldn't be good to be relying on her to move further away or get distracted because I have no control over what she'll do.
Somehow it's taking ages to sink in that she really is like this - manipulative, controlling, critical, and does this sweet/mean thing that someone mentioned. I never heard of that before. But even when she's supposedly helping by telling me about houses that are coming up it's always in the form of a demand to let her know how I get on with viewings etc.

It's strange because she wasn't always like this but now she seems to have settled into the role of my saviour/fixer upper. I'm realizing that this is why I like my own company best - in my family letting your guard down and looking for help or admitting indecision or worry about something just leads to criticism and control in the form of 'help'. The implication is that if I need help it must be because there's something wrong with me- I must have messed up basically.

I could really do with a support network other than my family but I always seem to make friends who are similar to my family so now I just avoid the whole thing which I know is not a great idea. I'd rather just get by as best I can on my own but I don't want to be a burden on dd as I get older either.

Thanks for the reassurances that I'm not awful. I was always treated like I was? The thing is I was actually a good kid, I didn't really put a foot wrong (much too scared), but my dad was always telling me how ungrateful I was, how disrespectful, accusing me of answering back when I actually wasn't. He used to order me to apologise and I would, even though I often didn't understand what I was apologising for, just because it was too dangerous not to.

Hi to the various new and returning posters.

Essex I think mental health services aren't always great at dealing with personality disorders, of which narcissism is one. It must be very hard to sort out what belongs to what. I don't know what to suggest, just wanted to acknowledge the dilemma.

Fairyfi I'm really sorry that your mother reacted like that when you took an overdose. (Mine told people not to mention it to me because I didn't want to talk about it. I did want to. She didn't want me to want to.)

I'm really sorry to hear about all the hurtful things you have endured from your so-called family. My father was also very generous with money and it really made it difficult to see his abuse for what it was; but people are generally not completely good or completely bad, and being generous in one respect does not cancel out your suffering or mean it doesn't matter or was okay. Is it possible to either go no-contact, or have limited/structured contact?

lolly no child should have threats like that made to them. I'm so sorry. You don't need to apologise and you aren't rambling.

Ostentatious I'm not surprised you want to scream. It is utterly frustrating and crazy-making to be in that position. I suspect confronting them would not get the results you want; perhaps better stick to actions you can have more control over? If you quietly disappear, you can control that.

Pointy that is shit of her to say. I'm glad you managed to point out why it was shit! And no it is NOT NORMAL to be scared of your parents; not to the degree that children are scared in abusive families. Much like the distinction between a bit of 'normal' sadness, and clinical depression. It is normal to think your parents are in charge and want to please them, but it is not normal to be afraid and feel fundamentally unsafe in the world and in your home.

goldenrose I'm so sorry to hear that. (My DB is also the golden child.) I'm also sorry your friend kept saying you were wrong, because how can they know when they haven't grown up in your family? You presumably wanted support, not to be argued with. I think your DH's heart is in the right place, but I doubt your DM will be able to compute what you are saying, sadly. It can happen that you can accept things and move on, yes; though you can also find you go backwards and forwards a bit, or round in circles. But things can get better.

Polly I think your sanity is worth more than any amount of money, and perhaps it's best you don't move until SHE has moved further away first, in case she doesn't actually move. Honestly, I would look elsewhere for a new place.