"But we took you to Stately Homes!" Survivors of Dystfunctional Families

[Meerka]

It's May 2015, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
March 2015

Dec 14- March 15

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

You are quite right to not drop everything. The guilt is powerful, but parents are not there to consume our lives. It's reasonable to care for them, but as with everything there's a balance and you have your -own- life to live.

Some people give birth and seem to think that the child is something that should be there for them forever. Well, when the bonds of love are healthy, the care and love flows freely. It's a positive relationship, not one that drags you down and not one that consumes the child's life.

And as you say, she has your father there.

If you possibly can, I'd ring her when you can manage but only when you are feeling strong and can resist the silent guilting. You are right to resist it!! You're right. You can't be there at her beck and call. The only people who have the absolute right to demand that are your tiny children, and even they have to learn give-and-take with your time and attention as they grow older.

Sorry to hear that slso, Bruce - and haalthy to vent!!

Can i p-lease vent also?!!! So, dm gives me usual brief duty call 2 days after my birthday (not on, oh no, as away for w/e ) . Anyway, her call was on a work day during working hrs. Got hump when i said sorry will have to be quick as at work- which she ignored. Then i stupidly did brief outpouring along lines of look got a lot on my plate, not now. Stupidly mentioning fact that dfriend had just died - to which my dm said precisely nothing . Like dfriend or I or both didnt fucking matter!!!!
What does it take to get her to fucking notice me or show an OUNCE of empathy ever?? Anf why cant i ever truly be accepting of the fact that she cant/wont??

its as if everything that happens in my life is just me creating a drana- from passing my nasters with distinction (ignored) to getting new job (ignored) and now death of close friend (ignored) . Ditto dc- nothing asked about their halfterm!!
Thought 2 years of therapy - oh i should send that woman the bill before she spends it on her next holiday! - had got me through this but a 3 min phone call 2 whole days ago has reduced me to an angry, bitter wreck!
I still want her to validate me, am in my 40s. How the hell do i ever fet over myself?
Rant over. Thank you.

Sorry for typos. Forgot to mention- got follow up email yesterday - again no mention of dfriend or my evident stress. Dm literally wrote "hope all is well with you at work and home" and then chatted on about her forthcoming cruise . Am i rwally exoecting too much?? People-parents- can be shit flawed, right?

Of course parents are flawed movin There's nothing you can do about it except to try and not let it rule your life as was said up thread. My friend in similar situation to yours counsellor said if you know she has never shown affection why do you keep expecting it? Difficult question I know.

Bacause a lot of really important stuff has happened recently, notably dfriend's death. And i thought just maybe this once she'd might show a glimmer of understanding or care! Not saying if's logical to expect that.

Thanks everyone - I'll phone her later on this week Meerka as you suggest. It is awful though, I really have to psyche myself up to phone her.

Agreed it is healthy to vent MovingOnMyMind. I'm impressed by your achievements, as I'm sure others on the thread are, and sorry to hear about your friend. I still find contact with my mother difficult, but one thing that helped a bit was to accept that she was never going to respond to me in the way I wished she would. It's sad, to not be able to expect kindness & consideration from a mother, but less hurtful than expecting it and never getting it iyswim?

Yes, parents can be flawed. This thread would be very quiet otherwise

It sounds like you're having a hard enough time coming to terms with the death of your friend, without contending with your mother as well. I'm sorry to hear you're having a bad time these past few days

Thsnks, Bruce for 'hearing' me. And to you too for that pending call. You're right not to be guilt-tripped into more contact but to take control offering only what you can manage.

Sorry movin I didn't mean to seem judgey. Its CBT she's having and as you probably know they tend to ask for evidence for feelings. Have you tried mindfulness meditation.?
It has been helping me a lot with accepting feelings as just feelings not who we are. Not saying its easy though.

Thanks .Yes, I've investigated it a lot. Agree it's powerful. Struggle with actusl meditation (monkey mind! And bad back) but try to walk/exercise mindfully ifykwim.

Logically, i know you're right, Staffie. But that's the root of much (most?) of our pain on here. We want mummy to nake it all right still.

God, if she weren't so dysfunctional, cant help thinking i'd have had a better, more confident stab at life- made a better choice of dh based on true love and affection not timing and not a little desperation and with that as my foundation could have better withstood the ups and downs of life including her failings?? It's a double whammy, isnt it? And i hate her and myself for it.

Good luck with (rightly )resigning from that role, Staffie. Not easy but v healthy. To be a family scapegoat is just awful. You sound v brave...
Yes, i have been MC and felt i suffered the more because of it. Established alighky better LC boundaries which kind or work. But evidently not fool m)mother!) proof! ! God, what am i teaching/moddelling to my sons about how to treat me when i am her age? Karma and all that. Cross fingers!

I dont know, Staffie, you're human, a daughter, albeit not a mother. Still have a right to a view!

I have wrestled with NC but having enjoyed the company of at least one if my dgparents greatly i didnt want to stand on the way of my own kids with theirs. My parents arent 100% awful, especially df whom i love dearly, though he is chronically weak. I find it hard to justify in MY case only continuing NC. If that makes sense, but for some people on here- and clearly you, Staffie, it is very necessary.

Sigh.
Have mentioned my mother here before.

She seems to suddenly have a bee in her bonnet about gay people, asking me lots of questions (I'm not gay, btw) and told me in all seriousness that "paedophilia will be legalised in 20 years. They've legalised being gay so that'll be next".

My son (14) went to visit with my brother in law last week. He's just told me there was an episode of the Simpsons on with some vague reference to a character being gay and she had a freakout over that! Son said he and bil sat in silence as they were so shocked. Then son talked about proms and mother said, "You can only go if you're NORMAL".

For goodness sake. Should I bring this up with her? She's getting odder and just sat behind me sighing last time she invited me round. I was tempted to tell her I'd have to open the window for oxygen if she didn't stop it!

Frith

Your mother is as mad as a box of frogs and bringing this up with her will achieve precisely zero.

Who decided to visit your mother, was it BIL?. I would refrain from sending your son over to see her even with your BIL present. Its not going to do him any favours hearing his nan talk like that.

If she is too toxic/difficult for you to deal with its the same deal for your son as well.

Moving

re your comment:-
"I still want her to validate me, am in my 40s. How the hell do i ever fet over myself?

This wanting her approval is commonly seen in adult children of such toxic people; she will however, never give you the approval you still seek. You're going to have to let that go. You do not have to get over yourself, infact you owe your mother precisely nothing.

Your father is indeed weak and likely also her enabler to boot. Narcissistic women always but always need a willing enabler to help them. Such people like your mother lack empathy, infact they have no empathy at all. (My MIL is insular, secretive, entitled, has no insight and no real comprehension of how others feel. Social niceties are alien to her. Also such women are friendless, they really do have no friends but acquaintances who they use).

It is NOT your fault she is the ways she is. You did not make her that way (her own family of origin did that).

Mother is acting like a child. Was my anniversary so I am expected to say thank you for card. She can't possibly say 'happy anniversary' first (same applies on birthdays). We were away so didn't get cards until we got back so text straightaway (but few days late). She is now ignoring me.

So pathetic.

Frith in normal circumstances I would say of course, she's being unkind and intolerant and should always be confronted. But this is the stately homes thread so it's pointless I think. It's different but similar, my mum has really strong opinions on LOADS of things, albeit slightly less damaging. For example food; food colouring, additives, what's related to what disease or cancer, and if you accidentally eat one of these things she'll quickly inform you that you shouldn't have and there's no arguing, because she's so convinced she's right . It's very difficult in your situation because it feels wrong to leave homophobia unchallenged.
It's just about having strong opinions that are constantly discussed and because they're so overwhelming it feels like a defeat to ignore them and yet another way you're allowing them control. But it's not. It's just not engaging because it's pointless.

Hello all (again), and sorry for thread dipping (again).

The validation thing is really, really hard, but I do believe that you can get there eventually.

Now I am lucky enough to have a dad who doesn't contact me except by brief texts to tell me he's there for me, which I know is not true, so I'm able to ignore them. This makes my life significantly easier.

I've been low contact for I'd say about 2 years. There was a flurry of texts in January but nothing since, and then I did put a card through the door (just said 'love Pincushion') for his birthday and got a thank you (I'm here for you) text back. Which I ignored.

I was invited by DB to Dad's birthday, but got no hassle from any sibling when I quickly declined.

So I'm largely ignored, which is a massive blessing.

Anyhow, I'm looking at the turn my life has taken in the last couple of years, and I've done a lot. Some of it is small stuff that only really matters to me (managing the bipolar disorder) and other stuff is big that has made friends and family proud too (published a book. Self-published, it's true, but I did it).

At no point for either of these things or any other did I wonder if Dad would be proud of me. Mostly because he wouldn't be. He'd grill me about the book thing so that he could publish his, but that would be it. The bipolar shouldn't be discussed out loud. I didn't even think about him in relation to any of this until weeks later. It literally didn't occur to me to even scroll over his name in my contacts list - there was no dallying, he just wasn't in my mind at all.

I kind of feel a bit liberated. He's just a person who exists in the same world as me, but nothing more than that. I think I have a greater connection to Judge Judy.

So, this is a bit of a chins-up. I'm not saying I'll never return to that desperate desire to please him, but at the moment, I'm not feeling it. It's nice to have that relief. I just wanted to say so that those of you who are stuck in the thick of it, that there is, sometimes, if you're lucky, that sense of relief.

I hope you all feel it at some point.

(Now all watch and laugh as I come crashing down next week.)

Hello

Sorry to dip in but need hand holding please

Been NC for almost a month due to nasty email from DM which I've chosen not to reply to

DCs have no idea

They adore their grandparents and I am careful not to mention in front of them

Parents don't live nearby so not unusual to not have seen them but they would normally have spoken with DCs at least once a week by phone

I wouldn't stop telephone etc contact with DCs if they tried

Yesterday DD was 4
They sent a card
Was I expecting too much for a present or phone call or a voucher in the card?

Or was I naive to think that they would want to keep a relationship with their only grandchildren going even if they have written me off?

And yes.... I know the answer

It just hurts .....

Oh, gosh, Somer. Yes that is hurtful, and I think you just have to let it hurt without responding.

My instinct is, though other people might have better wisdom, that it's actually a good thing that they're not in contact with the children. If they're going to be mean and petty to you, it's not out of the realm of possibility that they're going to be mean and petty about you to your children.

I've told this story before, but I endured and awful visit with my grandmother (dad's mother), where she sat me down and explained to me that Mum didn't love me, that she was incapable of love, that she's a nasty, bitter woman who used Dad, that she shouldn't have had children at all...

It was awful. I didn't want to hear it, and even though I knew that it wasn't true, I still ended up in tears.

The thing is, she and Dad have been NC on and off for the past 35 years. We were occasionally sent to deal with her anyway, despite the fact that my parents knew exactly the sort of woman she was.

I wish I hadn't been exposed to that really. Yes, on the surface she loved us, and she let us do messy crafts at her house and took us to the beach, but right underneath the surface was this utter hatred for my parents which could sneak out at any moment.

I'm NC with Dad now. He's taken her abuse then dished it out to his children, and I'm determined to break that chain.

My children noticed that he hadn't been round in a while maybe a year ago, and I just fobbed them off with 'he doesn't visit' or 'he's busy'. A while back I worded it as 'No, Grandpa was unkind to Mummy, and we don't have to tolerate unkindness.'

More recently DS has wanted to know more details and we're very slowly discussing certain aspects of it. I haven't told him about the violence. I have told him that I grew up not knowing whether he loved me, and he was genuinely confused by the concept of a parent not loving their child. There will be other conversations over the years, and it may be that after they've listened, they want to see him, but for now, I see it as my job to protect them from what he's capable of doing to them.

Somer I think that was designed to provoke you into getting in touch. Which is a really manipulative and shitty move on their part.

All children adore their grandparents. But there are other questions to ask, like whether they are fit to be in your children's lives. I'm sorry they have done something so appallingly hurtful. But I wouldn't take the bait.

Pincushion I think it's great that you've achieved what you have and that you're able to be so level-headed about things. I hope I get there someday.

I had this weird revelation yesterday actually. I realised I'm not in pain because of the estrangement from my so called family but because of what I didn't have; it's pain I was already in, all my life, and I haven't actually lost anything by going NC. I know some people would think that's an awful thing to say, but it's true.