"But we took you to Stately Homes!" Survivors of Dystfunctional Families

[Meerka]

It's May 2015, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
March 2015

Dec 14- March 15

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Maybe I should post in here. I have decided not to spend Christmas at my parents. I just feel sick thinking about it. DF makes us walk on eggshells. he is the sunshine and the rain to himself. If he is tired he will shout for a trivial matter making it onto a big ethical or moral campaign. He will blame DM : "why can't you get your DD to..." Then DM will come to me and say: "you better be quiet and not do this or this because your father is tired and you know what he is like...".
Last year me and DB decided that we weren't going to make our children sit still on a chair on a day where the storm was brewing. We had to put up with it all our childhood so we do not want to start blaming the DCs for DF's anger.
I am missing out on great food and sis. And sadly they are better GP than parents so my kids love them. The Dcs will be sad we are not going. (it is not in England so it is not like I can send them over for the day). Feeling very guilty and torn.

Im sure your children will enjoy a family Christmas at home with just you DH and them. It can be very freeing to not have to do things the way your parents want. Very freeing.

Blodss I am sure you speak of experience!

I would like to join this thread having been encouraged by some nice people who posted in reponse to my thread.

I have had no contact witg my family for 15 yrs and only the occasional telephone call in the 10 yrs prior to that. So in the immediate sense my family is history but I niw struggle a lot with my husband's family. They have become the "dysfunctional" family I need to deal with. I am not equipped to deal with them.

I just wonder how people deal with the family of their spouse given you may have few or no family members of your own to act as a counterbalance.

Just venting my spleen.

Went to visit my parents this evening. I have cut down visits hugely but wanted to go as my mother has just been put on the donor register for a new cornea so an unpleasant time coming up for her.

I had 5 minutes first of mum ordering dad to turn the tv over, up, down and eventually off. Like it was his fault for not knowing what she wanted. Dad went out into the kitchen in the end.

I asked about the surgery and understood she would want to talk about that at length. Then I had another 30 minutes or so complaining about ailments and other people. After an hour I realised she had not asked a single question about me - not was I looking forward to half term, how my children are - nothing at all!

I wanted to tell her that my older son (year 10) has been put into a special English group for being in the top 6 in his year. She said, "Oh, you know who he gets that from!". I felt quite pleased for a minute, thinking that was a vague compliment. Then she said, "Yes, I was JUST like that at school". But she wasn't! Me, dad and my siblings have 6 degrees between us. She failed her O levels, tried again, passed a few, left education. She was always in trouble.

I said no more about that. I told dad that son wants to do his Duke of Edinburgh award and she was off again - having a go about dad (who was standing right there) about he would never volunteer for anything and of course no one in dad's family would have done the sporting part of it. Then apparently her sister HAD done DofE - which she hasn't because it she is nearly 80 and it wasn't even invented back then!

Then she mentioned that dad had seen MrB (one of my colleagues but dad has known him for years). She said wasn't it nice that Dad had seen MrB after so many years and then asked how many years it was since I had seen colleague. I was totally thrown by this. I said, "Well, I was working with him on a project yesterday" and she said "Oh, well of course, yes". It was so odd, as though I haven't got a job, or perhaps I have a job that isn't worth mentioning?

So no questions were asked of me at all, no interest shown and when I volunteered two pieces of information (and I mean, literally two), those ended up being about her.....

Frith

I would consider further cutting back on visiting your parents; your mother is completely self absorbed (narcissistic) and your dad being weak goes along with her out of his own self preservation and want of a quiet life. He cannot be relied upon at all either to protect you, he is really her hatchet man here.

They are and will never be the nice parents you want them to be, you are still seeking their approval which they will never give you.

Would you consider now being no contact with them?. They will not change, you can only change how you react to them.

Oh Juliajuliajulia how unfortunate that, having dealt with your own dysfunctional family, you are now having to deal with someone else's! That really stinks.

However, you can choose how much you engage with these people. As you have chosen with your own family.

What does your DH think? Does he understand? If you have freed yourself from your own family and managed to protect yourself from them, then does he and do you understand that you don't have to take any shit off anyone?

These people do not have the power to hurt you as your own family have. Do not give them the power.

Thank you Fantastic. My husband has never wanted to upset his parents, it appears as if he is close to them but it is on their terms, so even when his father (now deceased) spoke nastily to his mother, my husband would not say anything. He very very rarely spoke sharply to his father and he was forgiven all of his behaviour "he is old and not going to change, so you need to be mature" is what would be said to me. I cannot say the number of times we would end a visit (always lived too far away to visit for an afternoon) and I would be told what i had said or done that they did not like. it would either be said directly to my husband or by the look of their faces or from knowing them as he did, he would "know" they would not like something and i would be told. it would almost be as if i was getting a score out of ten as to how i had behaved.

An example of what my FIL would do, one day we had fish pie for dinner (food was always fantastic at their house) and he made it "MIL I have given you lots if fish as you deserve it". Everyone (DH, FIL and our 2 children ) got a normal portion - i was given a plate of mash. I was so upset and i said something about it, but of course later my husband said his father did not do it deliberately when of course he bloody well did.

It is all pyschological stuff with them, nothing gets said out in the open to someone, it is all done behind your back.

My husband could see fault in his father, but he cannot in his mother. She is perfect, there can be no criticism of her, especially now she is a widow (i understand it is very hard for her). He cannot see her as a normal, flawed human being who sometimes says or does the wrong thing. His sister was recently very nasty to me on more than one occasion - his mother? She has brushed it under the carpet and said "Jane sends her love and wants to Skype with us whilst I am visiting you" only because the little coward would not dare Skype without her mother being present.

You are right that they do not have the power to hurt me as my family did, but they know how to push the buttons and they all know I have no one else so I am graciously allowed to be in their family. i am held up to a far higher standard of behaviour than any if them and then am the scapegoat.

I am disengaging myself, learning to keep my opinions to myself, not get drawn in when MIL talks about any of her children, stay neutral, stay calm and stay out of it.

In your position I'd explain to your DH that you have managed to disentangle yourself from your own toxic family, and you have no intention of continuing to put up with this behaviour from his. Perhaps he can visit them on his own. Just don't put yourself in the firing line any longer. Self preservation is important. Explain that to him.

Hello Julia

I agree with FB that you should remove yourself from their presence. They're cunts, they'll always be cunts, and there's absolutely no reason for you to put up with it.

Unfortunately your DH has been brainwashed since childhood to believe that he's not worthy of his family's respect. In this sense, you are miles ahead of him, having seen the measure of your own family of origin years ago.

This book might help you: Toxic In-Laws

Do you have DC? If so I would strive to keep them away from this atmosphere.

Frith

What a horrible visit. She sounds so draining.

Have you ever challenged her lies? What is her reaction if you do? Full on narc rage, or tears and tantrums and pretended illness?

Oh Julia how awful to have to put up with it from your in-laws too. Sending strength and hope you can find a way to deal with them.

Frith she sounds just like my mother. She talks about herself constantly and who has upset her and if I try to venture in with anything she will just change the subject.

I have been NC with my dad for a month now and my mum has not tried to contact me since last weekend. Last Saturday was three self absorbed messages saying she was heartbroken that she wouldn't get to see my DC any more and how I hadn't even asked how she is and she's my mother. It has been quite lovely not hearing from them, very freeing and I wish I had done it a long time ago. I still fear for the shitstorms they will try to create in the future but I must protect myself and my family from them.

I have been reading back over the threads a little and can relate to so much. I know exactly what my future will be if I let them back in and it is too depressing to contemplate.

thank you for your messages. They are not bad people, but flawed like the rest of us, but nothing is talked about to anyone directly, no honesty. I am told that both of my husbands parents liked me but how can one know? I need straightforwardness and cannot deal with things being said behind your back. They all really dislike BIL (he is awful) and say horrible things about him behind his back but no one will challenge his unacceptable behaviour and I find this way of doing things very unsettling. And the problem is it just builds up resentment. I resent my MIL now because she has just let her daughters behaviour towards me stand - she has said nothing to me and I don't think anything to her daughter and has just completely condoned it.

I beat myself up endlessly for things I have said and done that are not acceptable and I try to apologise and make amends, but they don't.

Ultimately we can only change ourselves and I have to keep saying that. They are not my family and that does give me the opportunity to stand back.

So after not hearing anything from my parents for over a week they have sent a package of presents for my DC. No note in there, nothing showing any concern for their pregnant daughter. They are trying to buy my DC's affection (completely their style) and don't care at all about the stress that they are causing me. What kind of vile people do this? I'm really trying not to let them mess with my head. I just wanted to enjoy this pregnancy with minimal stress but they just have to do whatever they can to bully and control me.

Have you told them not to contact you, tiredandbeaten. If so they may think that you would not want them to send any note for you. Have you told them not to send anything for the children? I don't know all your history but just a thought.
It could be that this is to control you I don't know.

Is it ok to join please? Lurked here a bit on and off. Have just had a massive bust up with my mother and need some advice if it's ok.

I'm in the middle of divorcing a man who I married young and was sexually + emotionally abusive. My parents, but especially my mother, cannot accept that I am divorcing. I had countless remarks at the beginning. They wanted me to fix the relationship rather than throw it away. I didn't tell them exactly the nature of the abuse and just said my stbxh had been violent. My mother thought he had hit me in a rage as I had infuriated him. She justified it by saying I was infuriating. Since then I've kept minimal contact with them. They are abroad so only by phone, Skype or email. My mother wanted me to send the dcs to stay with them in the summer but I didn't do it as I feared she might treat them the same as she treated me if she wasn't supervised and also she had tried during skypes to criticise me in front the children. She is very bitter about this.

My father in all this has been pretty silent (as usual). He hasn't openly criticised me, neither has he really tried to support me in front of my mother.

A few months ago my stbxh sent an email to my mother. He wanted her to write about how crazy and irresponsible I am. All part of a campaign to frighten me regarding children arrangements. My mother basically taunted me with that email, refusing to say what the content was or whether she was going to reply. It took my sister and my dad to intervene for her to relent and promise she wouldn't reply to what it asked her to do.

However, I discovered by accident the other day that my mother is still in touch with stbxh, discussing me and the kids. I asked her about it and she admitted it and said he was the son she never had and she couldn't forgive me for breaking up the family. She said she felt sorry for him having been driven away from his children because of my crazy accusations (He's chosen to move abroad and also chosen to not contact the children recently - all totally his choice btw)

Basically I lost my shit when she said this and asked her if she realised what she was doing betraying me like this. I got so mad I told her what ex had done to me (ie rape). I never wanted to tell her because I knew she would just use it to beat me with and she did. She said I didn't have a clue what being married meant and that a man has needs, and all sort of shit like this.

After this, I don't think I can speak to her ever again. I don't even want to have to justify it. I just want to close the door and that's it. Her rant was just so awful and bigoted I can't even describe how I feel about it. I've had so much on my plate I just can't deal with that too and knowing she relays stuff to stbxh when I've worked so hard to stop that happening. But there's my father and my sister, and my other relatives. I don't know what to do. My mother is the one who is technology minded. She answers the phone. My father hardly ever does. He doesn't do email, let alone Skype by himself. I don't know how I can keep a relationship with him separately from my mother. I feel incredibly guilty cutting contact with him.

Both sister and father will eventually side with mother for upsetting her because this is what she is going to say and sister will start pestering me for news too and start telling me how worried my mother is.

Is it possible to be NC with just one person in a situation like this? I'm really worried I can't do it successfully and will end up making a fool of myself. Short of that, what else could I do?

So sorry it is so long.

in haste

Often it's not possible to keep in touch with the main family when you need to be NC with one.

If people do manage it, it's usually because the other people 'know what she's like' and are able to think for themselves and stand up to her.

If it is possible for you in your situation, then you probably need to accept that your relationship with your father is going to be at a lot lower levels :/ . You will also have to say to your sister, over and over and over, "the subject of mother is not for discussion. She behaved really meanly and until she is willing to apologise and not tell me to put up with rape and physical abuse, I will not have anything to do with her" Then change the subject.

if your sister refuses to allow that to happen, draw the conversation to a close.

Either your sister will get the hint, or you will end up talking less to her.

If you can, try to imagine yoru mother as a stranger and step away from her emotionally. It helps a lot, but you have to go through some hard, hard emotional waves first. It's a grief to go NC, especially when it means loosing all your family.

But you are absolutely right. Your mother's ideas are wrong and you need your children to grow up with positive influences, not bad. It's probably not a coincidence that you married an abusive man, given your mother's nature :/

Good luck and post here whenever you want or need to.

Hi guys. Sorry I've not posted, not got long so haven't had chance to read but just need a rant! How do you get past the feeling that it's you with the problem? That the reason she treats you the way she does is because of things you've done so she's just reacting to that? I know full well I'd never treat my kids the way she does but what if in my relationship with her I'm just as bad as her? She's got so many people who think she's wonderful so it must be me.....

Thank you OnceAMeer. I wish I'd kept my dignity and not lost it and told her.

In the past I've tried going NC or very low contact over smaller incidents but never managed it for long, mostly because I was pressured by both sister and father to go back to status quo. Everything was then always brushed under the carpet as if I was an oversensitive tantruming toddler. That's why I worry about trying it again as it's quite hard and almost makes things worse when it fails. She never apologises and I doubt very much she'll do now as she seriously outdid herself.

Her own sister is practically NC with her so some relatives know what she is like and would understand.

The dynamic with my sister and father would be much harder to deal with though. They don't challenge my mother on anything. My sister has mostly golden child status though it's come at a cost for her too. We speak but she sides with my mother and uses the guilt card too. My father shrugs off everything she does for a quiet life. All I get is 'You know what she's like', 'Don't upset your mother'. Ultimately I think I would lose touch with them if I refused to hear their pleas to talk to my mother. It's always where I fall because I end up feeling guilty.

I don't feel up to policing an NC situation or dealing with the guilt I'll feel right now as I have other things going on that take a lot out of me, but I can't face talking to her either which is why I'm in a pickle. I think she senses things are actually better than they were only a few months ago and she just can't stand that. It's like she wants me on the floor in bits! She's always had digs and been critical but she's been increasingly so in the past few weeks over my job, my childcare arrangements and she tries to get the kids to say they're not happy when actually they're doing well. I've tried to ignore as much as poss, but I can't ignore what she's just said to me. Challenging would also require a big discussion and actually, I don't think she deserves that either. It would feed her drama seeking too.

Adorably - could you write a letter to your dad explaining that it is detrimental to your health and well-being to be in contact with someone who says your husband should have been allowed to abuse you for his 'needs' and who also says that your stbexh's violence was caused by you. Say you cannot be in contact with your mother but do not want to lose touch with him, your dad, and ask him the best way to keep in touch. You could also say you understand he wants a quiet life etc as far as your mother is concerned, but that you're sure he wouldn't value that over a relationship with his own daughter.

Thank you Fantastic a letter is a good idea if he manages to open it before she does (only half joking). I'm not sure whether he knows what I told her either and if he does it'll be through what she said. I'm worried how he will be told this actually and how he will take it.

He's very traditional and strict but has been less judgemental in front of me than her, some of his comments have come from concern, not anger and contempt. But he so often lets my mother have the final word that I'm not sure how effective it would be. I guess at least I would have tried to establish a dialogue...

Type the envelope so she doesn't know its from you

Thanks everyone, for replying to my post. x

Blodss, I don't just dislike my parents, I feel no love for them. I can honestly say I don't think I'd feel anything but relief if they died. My middle sibling has put my F on a pedestal, she doesn't see that he enabled my M to treat my sisters and I horribly over the years. Like somebody says upthread, "anything for a quiet life" was his mantra. He's cut both my sister off at varying times.

I only resumed contact with them after DH died, that feeling of, I want my mum! kicked in. She was nice in one phone call, and an email or 2. Then she ramped it up to what I can only call vicious. She's probably rung 4 times in the 3 months DH died, apart from when she wanted me to do something for her, then she was ringing 4 times a day asking if I'd done it yet. Not once did she even mention DH, or enquire as to how I was coping.

Greenleaf, I am at your M! But sadly, can relate. Mine would do the same or ignore it, as if I was making it up. Everything has to be about them, doesn't it, and they'll do their utmost to make it about them. "Poor me" syndrome. The complete lack of self awareness is outstanding. Thank you for the link, I ticked almost every question... There's another one similar I've come across, will see if I can find it. Eldest DSis toyed with the idea of getting it made up into a Moonpig card for M last mothers' day. Or this picture I've attached.

I'm happy that you've made a recovery from the cancer, long may it continue,