"But we took you to Stately Homes!" Survivors of Dystfunctional Families

[Meerka]

It's May 2015, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
March 2015

Dec 14- March 15

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Thanks tinsel! Thank you for being the voice of reason. I've heard her twist the most innocuous comments from other people... who knows what she would do with a letter full of stuff about my childhood.

Ah! At last I've found you lovely lot! Been looking for a while as needed to revisit 'stately homes' thread recently.... Will have a good read and post later. New name but used to be scarletwomanofthevillage.

I have been very low contact with my M for around 15 years. We had got to the stage where we had a very distant relationship (ie don't see each other or speak on phone, just an occasional email, and birthday Christmas cards) This was all well and good, until a year ago when she sent me an email about a month after I'd had a big birthday, to say she had bumped into some people, from the very distant past, who'd asked after me and she had found that awkward. She then went on to say how sorry she was not to have been at my (2nd) wedding or my recent birthday celebrations and sorry I had preferred to keep my distance, and that the fact i had invited my step-M to the wedding of all people, was a slap in the face to her. She went on to ask Why? and state what fun we used to have.

I agonised about whether to reply and was advised by one or two close people including my 24 year old dd, not to respond. But I'm afraid not responding goes against the grain (bad manners)... So I did. Kept it non-blamey towards either her or me, agreed it was sad we didn't have the kind of relationship where she could be invited to my wedding etc. in short tried to be neutral and non provocative. Ended with a short paragraph about my DDs and what they were up to (big mistake)

Her response was nasty. Vitriolic. Pisstaking. Insulting. She said it was unkind (obviously because she wanted a fight and I wasn't giving her one) and asked if I wrote it all by myself. She took the piss out of my giving her news of the dd's saying it was like a round robin where people list their DCs achievements, (it wasn't) was sarcastic and nasty. Ended with her saying I obviously don't like her one little bit so 'now we all know where we stand.' ( I already knew where we stood, years ago!)

Ugh!!! Anyway, my DB1 was livid about her nastiness but asked me to reply (to stop her going on and on to him and DB2 about how I'm 'ruining her old age') and tell her 'why' things are as they are... I told him no, won't do any good, she won't learn anything etc. will punish us all, etc. but then I agonised for weeks, wrote several versions of an answer, but never sent one.

So she's turned our cordial but distant 'relationship' into nothing, killed it stone dead. I had wrongly thought that I was the only person that could have a sort of relationship with her that wasn't on her terms only. I'd thought, after all this time that I couldn't be hurt by her any longer. Wrong. Painful, but ultimately fine.

But recently I decided not to attend a very special evening celebrating an achievement of DB1's, because I knew she'd be there. Made me feel shit as I wanted to go for my DB's sake. And like I should be able to handle seeing her, be adult about it etc. I was going to go anyway, but dd1 reminded me that seeing her after last year's horrible final end to the mother/daughter relationship would be too painful. She herself didn't want to go either, but said if I was determined then she would come with me for moral support. I talked about disengaging and moving away if granny approached and said anything awful but my sweet, loyal, clever assertive, brave dd2 said she could not guarantee she would be able to do that. That she would have to tell granny what she thought of her etc...and neither of us wanted to make my DB's evening about us/my mother. So I didn't go.

My other DD, DD2 did go. (Had not had convo with her about it) She and my M noticed each other amongst a couple of hundred people there, but didn't lock eyes or anything, and didn't go over to speak to each other. My M would not have seen dd2 (21) since she was about 6 or 7.

But I can't stand the thought of missing events of my DBs and their families into the future. Can I never attend family events again? (She's only 72) Feel like I'm excluding myself from my own family (who are lovely) But, how on earth would I manage seeing her again? She is vicious.

I'm so sorry this was so long.

Sorry to keep on but, just to clarify, the 'Why?' question was about the whole situation of me keeping my distance. Not about why my step-m was invited to my wedding, that was just one of the things my M wanted to get off her chest.

FB

I would have advised you not to reply to that missive from your mother either. I hope too that you have now blocked her from your e-mail account!. Harsh lesson learnt there. You need to remember that the "normal" rules of dealing with family members do not at all reply when it comes to dysfunctional family members. Your innate good manners (and there is nothing wrong with that normally) was your undoing; your mother saw that as a weakness.

Unfortunately the outcome in your third paragraph was of no surprise to me at all; narcissistic rage from your mother came to the fore there methinks. If she is a narcissist it is NOT possible to have any sort of a relationship with such disordered people.

I would be wondering why other family members would see it at all fit to invite her to any family event. I would not be bothering therefore with such people.

I am cross with your brother number 1 (his role here being that of flying monkey) for even suggesting that you reply to her as well; he only acted in his interests here (he did not want to hear his mother going on and on at him) and certainly not yours.

Your mother wanted to be there so she could behave badly but also importantly be the centre of attention.

Any e-mail that you send her no matter how neutral it is will be turned against you. This is precisely how such people operate, also they never apologise nor accept any responsibilityfor their actions.

"I had wrongly thought that I was the only person that could have a sort of relationship with her that wasn't on her terms only. I'd thought, after all this time that I couldn't be hurt by her any longer. Wrong. Painful, but ultimately fine.

My DH thought the same of his (narcissistic) brother and he kept on being hurt as well. It was painful to watch.

Thank you Atilla for your response. You have helped me in the past when I've waivered (when I was scarletwomanofthevillage) and I have heeded your advice.

I think I felt that I could reply in a neutral polite way that would not be at all confrontational. However, I was wrong!!! And yes, I did immediately block her emails etc. (Though, sadly I sometimes wonder if she's sent a conciliatory one, especially since getting a glimpse of my lovely, now adult, dd2)

I'd like to stick up for my brother though. Yes, he admitted that he'd just wanted me to tell her once and for all what she was like for his own reasons, but backed down quickly from that stance. He then cancelled her coming to his for Sunday lunch as he couldn't trust himself to be in the same room as her because he was so so angry about her treatment of me and felt he would lose control of his temper. He then took himself off to a support group type thing, shared the fury, went on (scheduled) holiday and was calmer when he got back. He is a peace loving family man who has decided deluded himself that he can 'manage' his relationship with our M, and that's his choice. When he has an event he invites whoever he invites and any of us are free to choose not to go. My step-m always declines if my M is attending. By the way I'm not close to my step-m particularly but she is family and she isn't toxic so she is always invited. My DB's do not want to cut our M out of their lives but respect and understand why I have. They could not handle the guilt. They suffer. They love their sis, and fear their M.

Hi everyone. So I've read bits of this thread and I have nodded my head in agreement to a lot but of course I'm another one who isn't even sure it was that bad, am I being a parent blamed.... (my mum actually shared a link to blog post about horrible parent blamers) so basically my dad has a drink problem and I grew up on a violent house and my mum had no interest in me at all, I never really felt like I belonged in the family. My mum would never come along to anything and always blamed my dad for everything which was easy to believe as he was a drunk and was a more obvious problem although I always felt like things weren't right It wasn't until I had my own children that I started to see a problem with her, the saying goes that you'll understand your mum and how much she loves you when you have kids but it was the opposite for me. I'm not really sure where to start or what to say and I don't really want to put too much detail on here incase someone sees it. I just wanted to reach out to people that will understand. Sadly it seems there is a lot of people on here xxx

Presumably you have told your DH about his parents behaviours today; what was his response?.

Stop trying to help them; they do not want your help. Give that instead to people who will appreciate your efforts.

Toxic people are toxic even when they become old and or ill. I would not bother with either of them any more and I would certainly keep your children well away from the pair of them.

Presumably as well you will not get any apology nor will they likely accept any responsibility for their actions. If this does happen that is par for the course with such toxic people.

Re this part of your comment:-
"silly things like I suspect Dd is autistic and he won't hear it).

It is not a silly thing at all and I am not at all surprised that you have clashed. You do realise that controlling behaviour on his part is actually abusive behaviour.

If FIL cannot or will not accept that your DD may be on the ASD spectrum then that is his problem and not yours. Leave him to his denial.

happybubble

From the start of this thread:-

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You are not a parent blamer (I would always look for the missing truth from such people like your mother who rewrites reality to fit their own perceptions and beliefs and have their own denial); what happened to you is not that untypical of a now adult who has grown up in a dysfunctional family where alcohol and violence featured heavily. Such people never apologise nor accept any responsibility for their actions; your mother's link is further proof of that.

Are they still together?.

People from dysfunctional families end up playing roles; your mother was amongst other things his enabler, used him as a convenient scapegoat and put him and her own self interest well above yours. She stayed with him for her own reasons of self interest. Both your parents failed you utterly here.

Re this comment:-
"the saying goes that you'll understand your mum and how much she loves you when you have kids"

Have never heard that particular saying and its a lot of crock particularly when it comes to such toxic, disordered and dysfunctional parents.

It is NOT your fault that your parents were like this and they never sought the necessary help.

Post as much or as little as you want on this particular thread. The chances of someone you actually know reading this is very very small indeed.

Where are you re a relationship with either of them these days; are you low contact?. I would certainly keep the two of you well away from your most precious of resources i.e. your children. They were not good parents to you and they will not be good grandparent figures to your children either.

Greener sorry you had this experience today. Has your DH talked much about how his parents were when he was growing up? (Is it his dad and stepmum? Or is that his mum?) Does he make much effort to see them or is he not bothered? It sounds like you are more bothered than him or that you feel you should have a relationship with them. If your own parents are loving and kind, it can be a real shock to come up against a pair like this who are not. I would echo Attila that it's a good idea to keep your DC away from them.

Happy I was in a similar position to you about realising my mum was bad once my dad, who was obviously abusive, was out of the picture. I have read that for a child, it's so painful to believe that we don't have even one loving parents, that we will overlook and whitewash the shitty behaviour of one of them, and blame everything on the other. Because otherwise we feel so utterly alone. Realising that in fact my mum was also a first class shit was something that only happened after I had my son and realised that how she treated him was wrong, and by extension that meant how she had treated me was wrong. Thankfully she never spent much time with my son as we lived far apart. But she was there to "help" after my husband died and she was an absolute twat to a little boy who had just lost his dad. I won't forgive her for that and I can't forgive myself for not seeing it sooner :(

I think your DH has got the right idea, here. Why should you try to be nice if it's going to be thrown back in your face?

Do you think is it possible you are trying to "do over" your relationship with them as a sort of substitute for your own parents?

A read of Toxic In-Laws might be helpful for you.

Hi greener

re your comment:-

"Dh was upset they had treated me this way and rang up. Spoke and calmly said he knew it was stressful but wasn't nice to speak to me that way, they then started being nasty about me and they then put the phone down on him
What do we I though fil will die in a few months not a great way to say bye and I feel terrible"

You are not a "bad" DIL. I was not either and my late FIL still did not want to know. He never did throughout the entire time I knew him. When it dawned on me that the only person he ever cared about was him (narcissist and very much a product of his own upbringing) I completely backed away and only saw him if I went there with DH. That action did me a huge service.

I also wrote a letter after he died and shredded it immediately after writing, that was also a very cathartic exercise.

You feel terrible because you are both a nice and compassionate person. Those feelings in this case are entirely misplaced; his wife chose to shout at you instead (you're an easy target for them by trying to be nice because they see that as a weakness). These people have never fundamentally altered in terms of personality. You would not have put up with that from a friend either, family are no different.

Unfortunately your DH has had a lifetime of these people and knows all too well what they are like. TBH your FIL could go on for some time yet. They are not nice and neither will never be nice as long as they are alive. Its not you, its them. I would ask yourself why you have persisted in trying with these two at all; your DH and by turn his family are the scapegoats for all their inherent ills.

Atilla, thank you so much for taking the time to reply, I have noticed that a lot of people don't think their story was as bad, life time of having your feelings minimised does that to you I guess. It's times when I see an nspcc advert that reminds me of my childhood and I'm like yep it was a problem. I was emotional and physically abused I'd say, in all honestly I know I need help as sometimes the anger boils up inside me and the kids know about it. So worried I have damaged their little hearts already. I had my first so young for the wrong reasons (I wanted a loving family) I didn't really know the extent of the problem and I wish I had sorted out my head before I had kids (although I wouldn't change them for the world) I have a great life, amazing husband, great kids, lovely house, really landed on my feet despite it all but I have such an ache in my heart that won't ever let me fully be happy. Yes my parents are still together, still unhappy, my dad still drinks and I rarely see him, my mum I see a lot of but she rarely makes an effort to see the kids. I always feel angry after I see her even if she hasn't really done or said anything. We've had a few blazing rows as I've become an adult as she just doesn't respect me or my opinion which always lead to he typical narcissist dialogue. Tbh I can imagine you know exactly how the argument goes as I've read similar time and time again in an attempt to believe I'm not going crazy. She has managed to make most around her believe she is a wonderful mother and I'm just ungrateful and a nasty bully.

Pocket, yes that makes a lot of sense, a way or surviving through it i guess, I also saw how my mother behaved towards my kids and saw the pattern of neglect as they grew and got their own minds. She also sulks if they don't give her attention on demand! Xxx

Also thanks so much to you both for replying, just having what I said about it acknowledged has helped a huge deal. Thank you so much. Xxx

Hi happybubble

Was wondering if you have ever talked to NAPAC (National Association of People abused in childhood); they may also be helpful to you now. Heal that little girl still inside you.

It is indeed to your credit that you are seemingly and on the outside at least so sorted.

I would also seriously consider keeping your own self as well as your children well away from your mother as well. It is not possible to have a relationship with a narcissist and she could also use your children as narcissistic supply as well. (Am also very familiar with narcissist argument). Both your parents have utterly failed you here.

Hi, I haven't heard of them, I will definitely look them up, obviously feel like my childhood wasn't bad enough to waste an organisations time though....

It's a credit to the amazing unconditional love from my husband, I don't know what he sees in me but he's been put through a lot and loves me regardless.

I feel like going no contact would be a whole lot of grief I'm not ready for, atm she's being seemingly pleasant although the digs and the little things to hurt me but not enough to get mad about are still there, I'm just waiting for another explosion though and I'm thinking with that one I will cut contact. I have siblings I don't want to lose as well but also don't feel a bond with them. I do wonder if she's completely oblivious to the pain she causes me and thinks I'm the hurtful one. I always remember in our last argument I tried explaining how despite everything I have I still hate myself and she responded by posting a quote "if it makes you happy then why the hell are you so sad" now I get upset if I hear that song. Sorry if I'm rambling just writing exactly what is on my head xxx

Hi, I haven't heard of them, I will definitely look them up, obviously feel like my childhood wasn't bad enough to waste an organisations time though....

Do contact them. Your second sentence that starts, "obviously..." is uttered by so many now adult children of dysfunctional parents. You keep writing that your childhood was not "bad" enough; well from what you have written about it, it was more than "bad" enough. I put it to you that you did not really have a childhood and your parents utterly failed you, they should never have been together in the first place. Heal that little girl still within you now.

Your DH sees in you a good and kind person; you are worthy of love and of being loved by another. Your parents to their eternal shame never told you that you were worthy; well you bloody well are worthy and are worth a billion of them.

I've already posted this to you and it bears repeating:-

"Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth".

Your mother is a toxic person of the first order; any contact you have with her damages you and by turn your children (who see their mother being treated like poo by their nan).

What sort of storm are you expecting to hit if you do go no contact?. It is likely that some of your siblings could act as "flying monkeys" sent in by her to do her bidding for her. They could be ignored too.

Is no contact really that fearful, if you really cannot do that currently then at the very least raise your all too low boundaries and watch how she reacts to that as well. Your relationship with your mother is deeply unhealthy and one that your children see as well. You also can choose not have to read any of her witterings online by blocking her from your e-mail inbox. Ignore her self serving quotes she writes to you. Its ok to do this, you have a voice which these two between them completely tried to squash and deny.

Do any of your siblings have any sort of relationship with either of them these days?.

People from dysfunctional families end up playing roles. Your mother knows that you are hurt and she really does not give a shiny poo about the fact that you are hurt.

I recognised those words your mother sent you. That Cheryl crow song is complete shit as well!.