"But we took you to Stately Homes!" Survivors of Dystfunctional Families

[Meerka]

It's May 2015, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
March 2015

Dec 14- March 15

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Thank you all for coming back to me. I must say I was a bit unsure about posting on here.

I've left it up to S1 D1 and D2 as to whether they want to be in contact with my parents. I've given them all the info about it and been honest about my parents abuse (*for want of a better word) telling them "its up to you, I wont judge or comment on any decisions you make" so far only D1 has and afterwards she told me she felt that "was one the whole a mistake" as all they did was repeatedly tell her it was all my fault and that I'd all ways been odd. No mention of S1 or D2 who had just gained a GCSE B grade in year 10 with the first paper she had ever sat... just he was an odd boy

On a sideline two of my brothers adult children went NC with them several years ago ---just typing this has made me wonder if there's a common thread here....

DW really doesn't understand ( no that's not a clich??!) due to her upbringing in a supporting nurturing home, she does her best to make the peace and i cant fault her support over the past 30 years - after all she s the one who's had to put up with the toxic legacy of my parents - I d have probably walked out on me at times to be honest

I did try counselling a few years ago but didn't really find it much use other than it allowed me to say a few things in a non judgemental environment that I couldn't say at home to DW

I'm fully intending to keep up the NC now ... I tried to make it work and just got more of the same, no point in going back for another kicking is there ?one good thing that has come out of all of this I've never ever subjected my DCs to a holiday in a caravan once again thank you It really doe mean a lot to find out it;'s not just you and that other s do understand

kackel Your parents your decision. Your wife may find it hard but she needs to support you. My DH does not get it and think I should just let it wash over me. I can't forget things - it really hurt me and still does.

Sorry if I missed it in a previous post but how far away do you live from them.

@they make you

She does supporte ...just doesn't really understand which is fair enough .... I can't fault that .... currently I'm about fifty miles away from them ... I pass the house on a fairly regular basis as part of my job but once the move goes ahead it going to be nearer 300 miles ..

Often think I should have made it many years ago ...but then I wouldn't have has the job I'm in which I love.... and make a difference to many children in a similar position to the one I was in ... so I spose in a way good things have come out of a horrible childhood

Kackeldackel, your parents sound vile. You and your wife meanwhile sound lovely. Even after being with my husband for 13 years it still amazes me how many toxic people are out there and the horrible webs they weave around their families.

Atilla, we have gone back to low contact. It is our DD birthday today and rather than lots of pressure from PIL to see her, FIL just texted to say they would drop round a card but not visit unless we said it was ok. We said no visit and card would be fine. I think he has realised what will happen now as a result of their behaviour and isn't fighting it ....yet.

They are going on a long trip from this weekend so won't be around til nearly Xmas. Thank Goodness.

Had a good chat with my husband last night about PIL. He tries to minimise it a bit and smooth the waters but that is how he survived as a kid. I will never know how he turned out to be so lovely. I told him he was my hero last night for standing up to them on holiday about 2 incidents that I didn't put in my original post. Anyway, we agreed on the seriousness of it all, that low contact is the way forward. I love that now, after years of being together and dealing with PIL my husband can stand up to them - he hates doing it, and it takes him a long time to do it, but he will protect our little family. He is fab.

not sure about the lovely bit for me i can and have been pretty vile at times , i just rub along with my poor self esteem hidden behind a front...I've learnt to be confident on the outside but in side I'm still very much a frightened small boy, afraid of what other people think of me

kackel Distance does help with reducing contact so it will easier when you move. Even 50 miles would normally help if you weren't driving past. I remember my DM getting arsey as I didn't pop in when I was in the area (in the area meaning 30 miles away!)

Everyone is vile at times but you don't stop loving your children because they are going through a vile stage.

They have made me find it extremely difficult to accept compliments. Why would anyone want to say anything nice to me?!!

Hello all, here I am again :)

Still NC with smothering mum, last month felt a bit wobbly as it was her birthday towards the end of the month. The old familiar feelings of guilt and wanting to please just keep welling up. But the day passed fine and since then I've rarely thought about her.

Just want to check in with a few posts I missed.
toomuch My mother has just gone home after 9 days staying with us. Given my upbringing (of which more later) I have NO idea why I thought this was a good move
Been there! I had a horrible habit of inviting my mum to stay, and then after the stressful visit was over, it was like some kind of amnesia set in, and I'd forget how shitty it was, and invite her again. At one point she moved in. I'll leave you to imagine how that went

I think it's because there is this primal need to have a loving mother, and so we keep trying and trying, thinking that if we just try hard enough, she will change, and it will all be okay.

Of course, the only way you can ever have a semblance of a relationship with a person like this is to completely suppress any aspect of yourself that the toxic person doesn't like. You can only exist as narcissistic supply for them. Stepping out of line will just produce anger, rage, threats, emotional blackmail, wild sobbing, or professions of how they are afraid of you!

NMSA Is there any reason why your brother and family can't just come over to your house to spend time with you and your DC? Or that you could all meet up at the park or similar? If your M is putting pressure on your DB and DSIL then they would probably be glad to get out!

Hello Kackel :) I think exploring counselling again might be a good move for you at this point, but you should make sure to choose a counsellor/therapist who has experience of abusive families. Unfortunately some therapists view things through a filter a bit like your DW's, where they cannot really understand toxic families and instead want to work towards "resolving conflict", which is just not possible with a narc.

Have you read any of the books in the first post on this thread? I recommend Toxic Parents and particularly Homecoming. You might also find Alice Miller's work helpful, although it can be a little bit technical with psychiatric terms. The Drama of being a Child is a good one to start with.

3LeggedCat sounds like your DH is a good'un :) You might want to have a read of Toxic In-Laws to further your understanding of the dynamics at play. LC (if not full on NC) sounds like a good deal. Bear in mind that the way they have treated your DC is probably a carbon copy of the way they treated your DH when he was a vulnerable child. So other things that he remembers and reveals to you, may act as a horrible preview of how they will treat your DC if given the chance :(

pocketsaviour Thanks for the book suggestions, I'll have look - strangely enough DW commented a couple of days after I started posting on here that I seemed a look more at ease about discussing my parents / not as het up about it - ( she is unaware that I have posted on here) - so may be this has acted as a bit of a pressure valve.
Something that i hadn't realised is just how many people are in a similar circumstance...which as I'm ploughing though the tread I now do ... It's quite horrendous ... hopefully our generation will be the ones who start to break the cycle of abuse that we've suffered in the past and start to make a difference now we're standing up to it.... but i fear it will take several generations to do this

they "Why would anyone want to say anything nice to me?!!" because they can see what sort of a person you are even when you can't, it's taken me years to realise that I'm not the ogre that I believed I was and to come to terms with being in my own skin. If i'm correct in reading your postings then you are a kind and caring person - you just need to see that in yourself.

Yes there's pressure from NarcM.

We will see them every day though, pretty much. I'm very close to my DSIL and she's finding it tough not seeing us all the time.

I called NMSA bluff by saying to DSIL I would attend the ladies day thing if NarcM didn't touch alcohol all day. No response what a surprise.

Kackel, I think we can all be vile at times, toxic parents or not! Just makes you human. Your comment about being a small frightened boy inside resonated with me. I think sometimes my husband feels like this when his parents are acting up. Can't think of a specific example, but it just rings true.

Pocket. We have the Toxic Parents and also Toxic Inlaws. books. I haven't read either of them since when it originally all went wrong, about 5 years ago. I will dig them out and re-read. And something that happened when we were on holiday made me think - this is what they did to DH when he was a kid. AGain, can't remember exactly now, but it all had a horrible moment of clarity.

Our kids will now only be seeing the PIL with one or both of us present. Until such a time when they are old enough to decide if they want to see the PIL at all.

"Our kids will now only be seeing the PIL with one or both of us present. Until such a time when they are old enough to decide if they want to see the PIL at all".

I would keep this current decision you have made under review and rethink this as and when necessary.

Do you want to see these people at all, what are they like with you and DH?.

Can your DH stand up for himself fully when it comes to his parents though?. Can you do so, do you have your DHs full backing when it comes to his parents?.

If they have not or cannot behave decently to either of you as parents then I would think twice about allowing them access to your children even infrequently. Toxic parents more often than not make for being toxic grandparents and such people do not change.

Emotional harm can be done right in front of your very eyes; a snide remark, a look of disdain etc. Children need positive and life affirming role models, not those who suck the joy out of life itself.

Hi all
I've been lurking and finding everything that's written so supportive, thank you. I've taken to reading this in the middle of the night when I can't sleep. I'm going for therapy and it's been a revelation, albeit horrible. Initially I went to get help with several years of sexual abuse from my older brother, when I was very small. I haven't even got to that as I'm overwhelmed dealing with the emotional neglect by my narcissistic parents.
My dad died 2 years ago. I would say he was completely self interested and neglectful. I think he was jealous of me/boasting as I did well academically and that's what they cared about. When I was 40y I had a severe episode of depression, was diagnosed as bipolar as I'd been depressed so often. I had to give up work as a doctor at which point I became an embarrassment. My mother, now 88y, is a covert manipulative narc, so it's all about the sly digs, getting me on her side against others etc. I thought I was the golden child but I can see now I've been the scapegoat desperately trying to be accepted. I have an older sister by 10y and she's the favourite and won't discuss it.
I've cut my interaction with my mum right down in the last three months, previously spoke most days. Prior to that I was very involved with her care following her hip fracture. Since telling her how angry I am that they did nothing to protect me from 8years of abuse she has stopped calling me and has not mentioned it since, although I have visited a couple of times. I did disclose when I was 40 but she told me not to tell my dad and never spoke about it again. ( my brother died when I was 26y).
Today she rang for the first time since March to ask how we are. I was very noncommittal and after a while said I had to go. As she said goodbye she said "don't leave me..." Made me cry .
Sorry if this is very long I just thought I could share with people who get it

Hello threads welcome to the Stately Home :)

So sorry to hear about what you suffered growing up. I was also abused (by my dad) and my mum's reaction was very similar to yours. She has never really forgiven me for "breaking up the family" and "making a fuss over nothing" and is still convinced to this day (well, to the day when I stopped talking to her) that "he would never have abused your sister, don't be so silly" - that being my main reason for disclosing when I was 15 - I could see him grooming her as plain as day

Have you read any of the books mentioned in the first post? Toxic Parents is a great place to start and has a chapter on sexual abuse within the family. Homecoming and Recovery of the Inner Child are also really good for comforting and nurturing that frightened little girl who is still inside you. Homecoming is recommended to be worked on with a therapist so do discuss with your counsellor first.

Do you have DC? Do they have any contact with your M or siblings?

threads123 Completely understand, and don't let her manipulate you with the "I don't want to be a burden on anyone" routine, that's as much abuse as every thing you went though in childhood and later.

Thank you Pocketsaviour. I have read Toxic Parents, Alice Miller book and others. Devoured them actually! I haven't read the inner child ones. I read the reviews on Homecoming and seemed a bit scary. I'll have another look at those. I'm 53y now and I usually see my sister twice a year. Since my dad was ill and died and my mum broke her hip showing off in Pilates (! At 88y) I've seen my sister a few times but mostly I get informative texts asking me to visit etc. I'm saying no to these now but I'm seeing all of them on sat at my nephews wedding. I'm dreading it because I don't know whether anything will be said. This is the feeling and worry I've had all my life! I've got 3 DC's, 20 to 25yrs old. They know about it all and are supportive especially the youngest DD who has been the scapegoat. I just never saw any of that when they were younger . I wish I'd gone NC years ago but now with her 89th birthday next month it seems too much hassle. I'm on the verge though, so let's see how Saturday goes.

Thank you kackeldackel. You are right I know. I thought I was doing so well but today is the first time she's trying to get me to come back. I was getting used to being ignored so it threw me

a one day set back isn't a failure stand your ground :)

kackel thanks for your kind words.

threads she will try and draw you back in and when just as you things all is rosy she will revert to form.

Are any of your DC going to the wedding?

Thanks theymakemefeel, all 3 are going to the wedding. They are primed to manage the situation!

Thanks Kackeldackel I feel better this afternoon and able to detach from her again. Any isolation she is feeling doesn't compare to being an abandoned little child.

All the best to everyone x

If you get grief off anyone at the wedding, have a prepared phrase to use. "This day is about Nephew & Wife, so let's not discuss this now." then move away and talk to someone else.

If you get cornered, just call a taxi and go. Bride and groom probably won't even notice, I was pretty distracted on my wedding day and couldn't have told you who was there and who wasn't!

Thank you pocket. That sounds like a good plan and I will leave if there's anything out of order.

Hi All,

Long time lurker and some time poster here... Hope you are all ok.

Wondering if you have any advice on how to get someone to stop talking about the past?

Basically my DPs had a very acrimonious divorce and both remarried. My DM has spent the interim years slating my DF at any available opportunity. Even though DM had the affair, she is desperate to be seen as the victim and makes stuff up / embellishes the truth to make sure she is seen as the one who has been hard done by.

DF in comparison would never say anything detrimental about her, even confirm that she had an affair (which we all know anyway) and kept a dignified silence about the whole thing.

The latest episode my DM has told me that DF had an affair that produced a child when they were together but before they got married and that the reason they got divorced was because of him womanising. I have met this child and she is much younger than I am so the timescales in DM's story just don't add up. She tried to convince me but after years of being manipulated I see through it like a pane of glass.

I just don't understand why she can't just let the past go. I also don't understand why she thinks it is acceptable to let me think I have a half sister to cover up her own fabrication.

I have no doubt that she has told herself these things are true so many times that to her they ARE true and that she only does it because she is so insecure about the way others think and feel about her that she has to create and maintain this perfect persona - it must be exhausting.

I know I can't change it, I just want her to stop taking about the past. It's none of my business for a start, even if the whole thing were true it she isn't going to change the way I feel about my DF and it is frankly, a bit disrespectful of her to continue to try to manipulate me as an adult in the same way as she did when I was a child.

It also hurts me as I keep thinking that we have moved past this bullshit only for another shitstorm to hit when she has been drinking etc and gets resentful / sentimental. God knows what state I would be in if I believed everything she says.

Hi Gollum
I have to confess I don't know the best thing to do but I wanted you to know I'm reading your post. It sounds as though she has to escalate the story all the time in order to keep attention on her. i assume ignoring her is impossible. I hope you get an answer from the wise people on here

Thank you threads ... Yes - she does. She always needs attention and embellishes / makes stuff up / creates drama to make sure she is always the centre of attention. Which is strange, because she hates the thought of anyone saying anything unflattering about her so I would have thought he would have dodged the limelight...