"But we took you to Stately Homes!" Survivors of Dystfunctional Families

[Meerka]

It's May 2015, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
March 2015

Dec 14- March 15

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Too much

Quick reply as am typing on phone but all I can tell you is this

I have been NC for 4 months

I can't tell you the relief that it has given me

I didn't give my parents a reason. I just one day decided not to reply to the latest email telling me everything that I had done wrong

My DCS are 7 and four. I don't know how old your DCs are. Apologies if it was in your post but I can't check back

What I have learned is that children are brilliantly fickle I promised myself that as soon as they mentioned getting in contact with their grandparents or visiting them that I would make this happen. They just didn't.

I've come to the conclusion that a happy healthy parent is worth more than an occasional relationship with 2 grandparents

This thread has been so extraordinary in making me realise that their behaviour is not normal and that I don't have to accept it

I made the mistake this week of replying to the first email that my DM has sent me in four months

All it has proved is that nothing has changed and I will always be the one to blame.

If you haven't already then please think about reading 'will I ever be good enough' the details are at the top of the thread

I have spent years expecting her to change, walking around on eggshells when she visits and trying to keep my relationship with her going at the cost of my DHs happiness on numerous occasions

I'm coming to realise now what a waste of time that has been

If something is wrong in your relationship with your DM it is extremely unlikely that she will change

Please don't waste the time that I have expecting her to

That wasn't as quick a reply as I had planned!

Thanks guys!

Theymakeme, what does LC stand for? Least contact? I think I might be that already tbh. Once it twice ive shared a few home truths with my mother and as a result we have this shallow relationship where we both just try to get along for the time we have to be together. Trouble is we moved abroad so if we had a normal relationship it would make sense to come for longer. From time to time I forget what its like and invite her over for more than 2 days and its always a disaster.

Somer my kids are 3 so even more fickle! I was thinking till now that I had no right to deprive them of a relationship with their grandma but actually as a parent you are supposed to exercise judgement over these things, as long as its not an attempt to isolate your kids in order to keep them close. Which is what she did with me and extended family. It is hard to escae

LC means low contact.

This excerpt is from Lightshouse that may also be of some help:-

"It is worth noting that the majority of people who choose low contact (LC) do progress soon after to no contact (NC). Low contact often becomes a temporary stepping stone or a kind of trial period along the way to no contact, but not always.

Each person's situation is unique; however, it's common for toxic individuals (narcissists who engulf and borderline people, especially) to rail against your choices and bring out the very worst behaviour of which they are capable as soon as they begin realizing your intention to reduce or stop contact. A number of narcissists, especially, accept decisions to limit contact all too easily; however, many toxic people become disruptive and manipulative soon after in an attempt to regain control. (Typically, after a period of time - usually a number of weeks or months - they do give up and stop soliciting unwanted contact and manipulating.)

Witnessing increasingly bad behaviour has a way of resolving the denial, apprehension and guilt when choosing to limit contact with a toxic person. This increase in unacceptable behaviour typically confirms for the person pulling away that they have made the right decision.

Low Contact is undefined; however, if you are significantly limiting contact in comparison to what would be expected, you are considered to be LC.

NC, however, is very clearly defined, with very specific practices attached to it. Receiving information through third parties, listening to voice mail messages, opening cards and letters, accepting gifts for your children, and attending functions where the NC party is present are not considered NC, but forms of LC".

More Here: www.lightshouse.org/low-contactno-contact.html#ixzz3krao3EZw

Hard to escape the effect a shitty childhood has on your judgement. Blooming phone :-)

Thank you atilla! I will go and have a read of that.

Apologies - I've not posted for a long time, nor have I read anyone else's 'story' but just needed to post quickly in a place where people 'get' the whole narc DM thing.

Nothing big or drastic, just a passive aggressive text from DM that I'm sure an outsider would think nothing of! I'm repeating the phrase "if she's going to act like a toddler, treat her like a toddler" but am struggling... I know that pandering to her is not the right thing to do but I half want to call her out and half want to make sure she's not in a mood.

Argh.

Advice on here nearly is usually to not engage in any communication if NC.

toomuch While your DC are younger they can not see what it going but they will get older and will then start to question why one is favoured more than the other. This will start sooner than you think as well.

Ignore such passive aggressive texts; infact I would block your mother's number from your phone.

It is not possible to have a relationship with a narcissist. They are past masters of, "come closer so I can hurt you again".

Having a narcissist for a mother is a lot like living under the supervision of a six-year-old. Narcissists are always pretending, and with a narcissistic mother it's a lot like, "Let's play house. I'll pretend to be the mother and you pretend to be the baby," though, as the baby, you'll be expected to act like a doll (keep smiling, no matter what) and you'll be treated like a doll as an inanimate object, as a toy to be manipulated, dressed and undressed, walked around and have words put in your mouth; something that can be broken but not hurt, something that will be dropped and forgotten when something more interesting comes along. With narcissists, there's also usually a fair element of "playing doctor," as well of childish sexual curiosity that may find expression in "seductive" behaviour towards the child, such as inappropriate touching of the genitals, or it can also come out as "hypochondrical" worries about the child's health and/or being most interested and attentive when the child is ill (thus teaching the child that the way to get Mother's kind attention is to get sick). Having a sick child can also be a way for the narcissistic mother to get the sympathetic attention of authority figures, such as doctors and teachers.

Do not call her!!

Hi all,

I've read the Stately Homes thread for ages, years, but never posted on it. Now I think it is time to do so.

My parents are normal. I think (hope!) that I have a fairly balanced view of what is dysfunctional and what isn't. DH's parents are toxic. MIL is codependent and has to be in control. FIL is her enabler, and also has big issues with control. DH has come a long way since the beginning of our relationship and we went through a nasty time about 5 years ago with his parents. This resulted in him learning to stand up to them, and we put boundaries in place. After a period of no contact (after an incident which our DD witnessed), they realised they had to behave and respect our boundaries otherwise we would be NC. It's all gone fine for a while. Nice even. DH and i felt that we had finally rebuilt a reasonable relationship with them which benefitted everyone.

So when PIL suggested a big family holiday for earlier this summer (other family too, not just them and us), we thought 'why not?'.

I've read here many times that toxic parents just don't change. I stupidly thought that actually, these ones have. They respect our boundaries and it is ok. I was so wrong...

On holiday, PIL had to be in charge. We decided to get a hire car for the 4 of us. This led to MIL having a 24 hour tantrum. There were many other things that irked me, but the main one was that they basically ignored our DD in favour of our DS. I pulled them up on it on the last day (blazing argument by the pool anyone?). They of course denied it was even happening, then eventually said it was our DD's fault (said she ignored them first). I went into tiger mama mode and lets just say they are very clear about what is ok and what isn't.

I guess what I'm sad that we let down our boundaries enough to think a holiday with them would be ok (and mostly it was, but was it worth the emotional cost to all of us?). And I feel a bit stupid not realising that this would happen. And very guilty that my DD saw what was happening (i.e. being ignored) and burst into tears about it. That's what has upset me the most - that I/we let her get hurt. How could I not see this was going to happen?!?

OK, so that was a mammoth first post!

Sorry to read about that 3leggedcat, that was a hard lesson learnt. Perhaps you thought it would be ok because there would be other family present as well.

What was your DHs response to all this from his parents and are you as a family no contact with them now?.

ThreeLeggedCat You live and learn.

It is heartbreaking when you see these things happening but even more so when it is actually upsetting your child.

I am struggling at the moment as due to certain achievements go without acknowledgement my DC are actually wondering what they have to do to get a well done from their GPs.

I'm getting a lot of pressure to "be in the same room" as my mother.

My Dbro is anxious that his kids (2&3) won't see enough of my kids (7&10) who they adore while they're in town. They're here for 8 days and stay on the other side of the world.

He is being (an inadvertent) flying monkey as narc mother has done and number on him and my DSIL. He's just spent the last hour on the phone begging me to reconsider.

One of the things Narc mother frequently did was say outrageous, disgusting things about my loved ones but if I was to tell people what she said she'd tell people I was mentally ill and needed help, she'd even say it to my face.

When I say "tell people" I wouldn't tell the individual concerned as it would hurt them IYSWIM. I mean tell my DH e.g.

I have NEVER, ever lied or even exaggerated about the things she's said and done.

*say these things to me and me only.

Another thing she did was repeat these things but telling A. N. Other it was me who said it in the first place.

Hello
I’m not even sure if I should be here as I’m a male in my mid 50’s but here goes:
I had what I considered to be a fairly “normal” childhood up until I was about 10 when my father left my mother for another woman and at this point my entire life changed.
One morning while mother was at work he loaded up the car with his belongings and just drove off
My mother blamed me “for my behaviour and being a strange child” and from that point on nothing i could do was right. I was forced to break of all contact with all my friends. Being told at the time that because my “father had left and we were “no longer socially acceptable” (her words)
Time moved a few years on and my father returned home not only because the other woman had thrown him out because his money ran out as I later found out but because my “behaviour had improved”. But the net effect of having all of the blame put on me meant that I became introverted and withdrawn. I failed school in a big way.
Further issues occurred over the next few year augments between my parents mostly blaming me openly for everything they hated about each other pushing me further and further away .dragging my brother and I away on appalling caravan holidays where we just sat for days on end in a field. My father became more aggressive towards me calling me stupid and even at one time pulling the car hand brake on while I was learning to drive and then punching me in the mouth because failed to control the car and dented it.
I finally left home in the early 80’s met a girl, got married and started a family,s1d1d2 my wife’s parents where and have always been massively supportive of us proud of their grandchildren, my parents have just got more and more twisted, laughing at my son when he fell of his first two wheel bike, convincing my eldest daughter that “black people eat cat food”( which took quite a bit of “deprogramming” and generally being spiteful in every way that they could except to my brother who managed to get arrested for car theft “not his fault…. he was led on by the other boys” (he was driving the car! ), get through two marriages and three children with different mothers ( not my place to judge) and still the sun shone !
Last year I went NC with them for several months after my son’s 22nd birthday when they failed to send him a card not a biggie I know, but their reason was because he hadn’t been to see them. This year Ive once again gone none contact with them after I apparently turned up at their house looking for a fight ( I’d been passing and dropped in to say hello) where I’d told them that we were moving house and that I was retiring from work – I was immediately rounded on by my father who yelled at me that I was being selfish and not thinking of d2 and called every me every name under the sun, he then started on a tirade about why did d1 what to do a “ing course in human rights just to defend all them ing immigrants…” and why was s1 living at home aged 23… lazy u* ( he works as a chief min 60 hour week … last thing I’d call him is lazy ! )
At this point I just walked away, that was 12 weeks ago, I haven’t stopped my children contacting them … I can’t there’re adults … my dw is slightly agitating as both of my parents are 80 in a few weeks time and “you should acknowledge it “but frankly I really can’t be bothered as far I I’m concerned they can sit and rot
Am I wrong? … Sorry it’s a bit of a ramble but I really can’t articulate how I feel

Male or female of whatever age are always welcome.

No contact is precisely that; you need to remain no contact with these people who have always made you the scapegoat for their inherent ills.

Do your children have any sort of relationship with them, I cannot see any benefit for them in doing so given their past behaviours towards them as well.

What happened to you was not your fault; the blame lies with them but them being weak and taking the path of least resistance decided instead to take it all out on you.

Have you considered seeing a counsellor? It may well help you. Reading the resources at the start of this thread could also benefit you as well.

NMSA

Ignore flying monkey brother who your mother has clearly leaned on. Such behaviour is common from narcissistic mothers who use flying monkeys to do their own dirty work for them. If he continues, I would consider blocking all his means of communication to you. He is certainly not acting in your best interests here, only his due to his mother pressurising him. He is likely to be the golden child in this scenario; also a role not without price (as he may well discover).

No, you are not wrong. I didn't acknowledge my mother's 60th a couple of years back. I'd have felt dirty if I had.

The trouble with spouses and in-laws who have had good parents is that they can never quite understand the grief a toxic parent or parents cause. They can't imagine being no contact or limited contact with their own loving parents. I don't think they ever quite 100% see the point of view of the person who has been targeted by the toxic parent.

My own narc mother's behaviour got worse after my in-laws died. She thought she was safe because my DH is such a peacemaker and having recently lost his beloved father wouldn't go NC with her.

Sorry you went through what you did and I'm glad that you seem to have brought up lovely kids and have a good other half.

you are certainly on the right thread and you are perfectly right not to see them. being a child of parents like that is like being locked in a room with random strangers and told to love them. those who have been brought up with reasonable parents often genuinely don't get how difficult this can be. the thing is as a grow-up you have the choice to protect your emotional and mental health.Which is what you are doing.

Attila my brother is not toxic and is a lovely, lovely guy. He's been through piles of shit with her too. I love him dearly and wouldn't consider blocking him in any way shape or form. He really is only thinking of the kids who all adore each other not getting to spend masses of time with each other.

He acknowledges totally what my mother has done, but he himself will not go NC with her or any member of his family. Remember he stays halfway round the world so doesn't have to put up with her shit, though she does still sometimes manage to send some his way.

Totally agree with you though that she has been working on him and SIL.

Golden Child is our younger brother. Even he's not escaped her crap though.

Attila apologies I didn't say thanks for your reply.

Indeed he is not toxic and I did not use that word in relation to him. He's playing the flying monkey role in your particular scenario.

He won't go no contact with his mother for his own reasons (most likely being that he is the current favoured one here; the golden child role is interchangeable and your mother will keep moving your siblings roles around as she sees fit). He is still not acting in your best interests by putting such pressure on you to comply with wishes that no doubt his mother has foisted on him i.e. for you and she to be in the same room. He is weak when it comes to his mother and still wants her approval even now.

Its of no surprise me he has stayed halfway around the world, that was his way of avoiding her.

I realise that you do not want to block him but ultimately if he keeps on about this you may have no real choice.

Its also not possible to have any sort of relationship with a narcissist.

Re your post of 15.57 that's quite alright, did not expect thanks.

Hi Attila

I can see what you are saying and agree. He's said he loves me and won't fall out with me whatever I decide. He may well still be seeking approval. My other brother doesn't talk about it to me (he's also very lovely and I have a close bond with him too) but asks my DH to have a word. He's still a student and relying on his parents financially. Narc mother gives him dogs' abuse if she finds out he's been anywhere near me or in contact. Not that it stops him but she does put huge pressures on them.

About 2/3 years ago she tried her very damnedest to split DBro and DSIL and would have succeeded with her lies and muck spreading if they didn't have such a strong marriage/bond. DSIL was pregnant at the time, what narc mother did (made up nonsense stories about Dbro having an affair and putting it all round the family/friends) cooled their relationship with her but they're still in contact/have a relationship with her. DSIL is a saint for putting up with the MIL from hell like that. If she was my MIL the NC thing would have been from day 1

The other thing narc mother does is post very creepy look at my handsome son/s posts on FB. It's as if she fancies them, it is grim.

She's currently in a relationship with one of DBro's mates who is a similar age to DBro and has screwed several of his other pals.

She spent ??20k in cosmetic surgery last year to make herself look younger. SIL says NarcM says "I look soooooo good!" several times a day (NarcM was on holiday with them earlier in the year).

The long and the short of it is that even if they don't always act in my interests, I 100% know it is because they get constant grief from NarcM. My relationships with my brothers is non-negotiable as I adore both of them. We have all suffered in our own way at her hands. If she manages to divide us, she'd have won.