"But we took you to Stately Homes!" Survivors of Dystfunctional Families

[Meerka]

It's May 2015, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
March 2015

Dec 14- March 15

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

wondering I agree with Bailey lots of great parents don't spend enough time with their kids and the messy house..........that's just part and parcel of having children. You cannot have a show home when there is a little person making a mess faster than you can tidy it up

They are trying to hit you where they know it will hurt. I know how you feel, my own mother kept her house like a show home and growing up it was like living in an army camp.....regimented. We were always on edge, I made my bed perfectly, smooth with no wrinkles or creases, had to dust and polish twice a day, we were forever doing chores yet told we never did them properly. I even got told off once for putting dishes in the sink 'untidily' .
Yes my mother had a perfect show home but us kids were as miserable as sin and that is no way for children to have to live their childhood.

Having a happy, loving home is far more important. Don't be ground down, you are not alone.

Thanks Bailey and Mampam. I'm feeling a lot better now. Was wretched yesterday, but much more positive now. I know you're both right, and that these were attacks specifically chosen to hurt me. I must remember that next time I feel my resolve wavering. These visits have to stop

Hi all,

(Long post warning)

I've been lurking on MN for a while and finally registered today after doing a lot of processing of my past and my childhood etc.

Firstly, big support to everyone who has posted on this thread and others, it is great to see people receive such heartfelt replies and understanding and why I have plucked up the courage to post (I just hope I get all the MN acronyms right!).

Secondly I cannot tell you how much this thread title resonated with me. I soon lost count and forgot the names of all the stately homes I got dragged to as a kid.

A bit of background:

I'm a 42yo man who suspects that DM is a narcissist or at the very least exhibits a lot of narc traits.

Nothing was ever good enough for her. I did well at school, got a degree in engineering and have a good career now although I did have some wilderness years after leaving uni.

It is only something I have come to recognise quite recently how much I was put down as a child. My dad was a real pillar of the community type, councillor, mayor, school governor etc. and was often out at 'meetings' which usually involved a few drinks. I'm sure he enjoyed being away from my mum.

The reason a lot of this has come to the fore now is that my life has changed a lot in the last two years (for the better I might add).

Just over a year ago my then DP and I separated and I moved out. We have 2 DCs together, 8 and 3. I was with her for 16 years. I realised I was in a relationship with someone who treated me just like my DM, no matter what I did, it wasn't right or good enough. In the end I plunged myself into my work because I was very good at that and was the only aspect of my life I really gained any satisfaction from. I turned into a workaholic and a perfectionist. I wasn't a particularly good dad at the time, quite distant, despite the fact I have a great bond with both DCs but especially DD as I left work to look after her when she was 6-12 months old.

When I was a child I did loads of chores round the house, hoovering, washing up, hanging washing out, getting it in, dusting, stripping and making beds etc. but no matter what I did DM would just bemoan her lot and say yes but you haven't done such and such....

I have tears in my eyes just writing this. I felt crushed. And still do to this day. I am so angry at DM for making me feel so worthless for so long. I am angry at myself for burying it too. My elder brother has suffered with depression quite a lot (me too, but not so much) and has had counselling and CBT. I still think he is DM's favourite too.

Well, I left my then DP and found myself again. 7 months ago I also started OLD and really lucked out. Second woman I dated, turned out to be the one. We just knew it. We have the best relationship, can really talk about anything and everyone can just see how in love we are and how much we love each other. Even both sets of DCs are on board with it, probably because it is just so right. She is the woman I was meant to be with but only now are we both ready for it. She is the woman I will spend the rest of my life with, I am so sure about her. She has inspired me to come on here too. I have a great relationship with my children now, they open up to me if anything is bothering them and I am really involved, relaxed and in the moment. I don't ever want to be how DM was with me and make them feel shit and worthless.

I know many of you have suffered much worse childhoods than me and I feel for you. I am going to get some counselling as I do not want to let these feelings hold me back in my relationships with my new partner (and future wife), DC and at work. I know now that I will never have a great relationship with DM because she is not capable of it. I feel now is the time to start moving forward and be strong, be aware and at last be loved.

(Sorry about the long post again, but I have left stuff out!)

Wondering A bit of mess or dirt never hurt anyone. My DM spent many a visit telling me (as she looked down her nose at the toys in the sitting room) all about how you wouldn't know that there were children in my sister's house.

When the DC are older they won't be talking about how lovely it was to live in a tidy house but they will remember their mum spending time with them.

Sure Welcome.

It is difficult not to dwell on things and I do all the time. The positive thing is that you are aware of your mum and your ex's behaviour and will not be repeating it yourself. You have your new partner as well.

With counselling as well I hope you will be able to move forward. Your mum won't change but with everything else in place it will help you deal with it better.

How much contact do you have with your mum?

Hi They....

Thank you for the warm welcome.

My new partner is so supportive and understanding and has worked through similar issues herself.

I see my mum about once a week on average, although she looks after DS one afternoon per week too and my ex does the pickup on that day.

DM will invite me and the DC around for dinner at the weekend, and then proceed to be a bit of a martyr about it. She also gets all stressy if the DC aren't eating 'properly' with a knife and fork, sitting at the table etc. and I defend them and deflect the comments to reassure them that it's okay with me. I hope I'm doing the right thing.

She also gets stressy if they play up in public yet was quite happy to let DS run off towards a busy road on his own saying he knows to stop when he gets there! He's 3 FFS!!! I had a go at her about that and made sure my ex knew about it too.

I think the fact that I have upset her model of a perfect family is getting to her and she relates to my ex in this way.

She isn't/can't be happy for me now that I'm with my new partner who makes me REALLY happy. I know my dad understands how unhappy I was with my ex and probably has a lot of regrets for staying with DM. Every family holiday was spoilt with them arguing. My brother told me that we used to take turns in crying in front of them to make them stop. How sad is that? That was a big reason for separating with my ex after she hit me because she got so mad (on the arm but in front of DD).

Wondering I can so relate as DM's house is immaculate and I used to think that's what a house should be like. Now I'm happy, my flat is a tip. I so don't care any more. I'd much sooner let the DC relax, feel at home and spend time with them than have a tidy place.

Hi Sure

Welcome to this thread.

It is NOT possible to have any sort of a relationship with a narcissist and what you have described is not untypical of life within such a dysfunctional family of origin structure. It was also of no real surprise either that your ex partner was very similar to your mother (she is probably narcissistic in terms of personality also). We after all learn about relationships first and foremost from our parents.

Unfortunately women like your mother always but always need a willing enabler to help them and your dad fulfilled that role. He also failed completely to protect you and your sibling from his wife and sacrificed your happiness at her altar. He was basically her hatchet man.

She was not a good parent to you and narcissists in particular make for being deplorably bad grandparent figures. Its painful to see a narcissist interact with their grandchildren mainly because there is no interaction (take my word for it).

I would now curtail all the visits to your mother and these weekend visits need to cease. Its not doing your children any favours to have their own selves and see their dad treated like this. Narcissists tend to over value or under value the relationship with their grandchildren and you may well find she is doing this too. The golden child/scapegoat dynamic may well be playing out again with your children this time around.

I would now find alternative childcare re the one afternoon a week your mother has your child also.

One of the best things I have ever done for my DS (who is somewhat older that your children now) is to keep him well away from such people as much as possible. I am very low contact with MIL and I hardly saw FIL anyway.

I also think that counselling would be an excellent idea but bear in mind that the first person you see may not be the right one for you. Counsellors are like shoes, you need to find someone that fits.

It may be an idea for you to read "Children of the Self Absorbed" written by Nina W Brown. There are plenty of books and websites and this is a good one to read as well www.sonsofnarcissisticmothers.org/sonms.html

(My late FIL was a narcissist. He was on all sorts of committee meetings and such like primarily because he had some expenses paid, he had more to eat and lapped up the power and recognition that he never got at home).

My best wishes to you and your new partner. You deserve happiness.

I would also read Light's house as this can also be informative.

www.lightshouse.org/index.html#axzz3ifshbzOp

Hi guys, I've been reading this and just wondered.....am I allowed to tell my story? Or is this just the place to offload how you're feeling now?

I'm recently(ish) back in contact with my mother but I have up and down days about it. Most days I ignore all that's happened but I get days, like today, where I feel the need to spill. Except I don't have anyone here to do it to.

You can write as much or as little as you like.

What's happened Breadstix re your mother?.

Yes of course you can bread. Anything goes on this thread and you won't be judged at all. We all have a story.

Sure much of what you have written about your mother resonates with me. No matter how well I did at school I could always have done better, no matter how much housework I did it was never up to my mothers standards and so on and so on.
And the arguments on holidays, Christmas day.........hideous. Usually started because she wasn't receiving enough attention.
My mother also used to pick on my DC, they weren't allowed to touch this, they weren't allowed to touch that, they had too much on their fork, they didn't put their knives and forks together on the plate properly.......it became ridiculous and the DC themselves got fed up and didn't enjoy seeing her. One of the many contributing factors to the beginning of the end for me with her (I have been NC for nearly 5 years) was when we were invited over for dinner as was my older brother (Golden child). His son had the most atrocious table manners and was spitting food into his lap, my mother did not bat an eyelid.

My mother also provided childcare for me and I eventually changed my job so that I didn't have to rely on her. She did not take kindly to this however but it was one of the best moves I ever made. I realise that changing your job may be too extreme but is it possible for you to find childcare elsewhere?

Can you cut the weekend visits with her down to every other weekend and gradually even less than that?

You do realise that you deserve the happiness you have now found with your partner? Any 'normal' loving mother would be so pleased that their son had found true love but unfortunately toxic people do not think in 'normal' ways.

I'm really struggling at the moment. I feel like I am on the edge and am about to crack. I can't sleep, eat, my heart feels like it is in my throat and feels like it is doing irregular beats. I'm shaky and jumping at every loud noise. I just get a sinking feeling all the time and am thinking "what's next?".

What am I supposed to say to my 5yo DD when she asks why she can't go next door to granny and granddads house?

FIL has sold the first piece of work machinery from under DH's feet, god knows what will be next. DH did have 2 lots of work lined up with that particular machine which he has now cancelled, it does steer his work in a different direction but he can live without it for now. There is only one machine really that is imperative to DH making a living so we just need to work out how much money we can get together or whether we can get a loan to buy one so that he will be totally independent.

DH has also found himself on the mailing list of a particular estate agents that specialises in prestige/extremely expensive properties in our area. Funnily enough when he went NC with his parents and we moved out of this house 8 years ago he found himself on the same mailing list.
What on earth is that all about? Why on earth would they add him to the mailing list of estate agents that sell those kind of properties?..........Very odd

House hunting not really going very well. There is very little on the rental market at the moment and nothing in our price range. We are waiting to hear about a house in the same parish as we live in already so fingers crossed for that.

I just want to run away and never come back. I feel like I'm trapped in my own home.

Has anyone read Toxic Inlaws? I'm rereading Toxic Parents but have ordered this as I thought it may be helpful.
I wish there was a quick solution to this.

Sure and mampam The DC are young now but children can be very perceptive and it won't be long before they notice how they rank in the family and notice how stressed your are when seeing parents.

My mum told my DD (in late teens at the time) she was disappointed in her. I am a huge disappointment to her too. Haven't got the sort of job she boast to people about. So it seems my DD in following in my footsteps as far as disappointment is concerned!!!

My DC were fairly young when they started commenting on how my niece was the favourite.

My parents are due to do something for my niece (will out myself maybe so won't go into details) and I heard my DC saying to my sister (not my niece's mother) that their grandparents wouldn't have bothered for them. Feel very sad for them.

mampam,

re your question:-
"What am I supposed to say to my 5yo DD when she asks why she can't go next door to granny and granddads house?"

This excerpt may prove helpful to you (this is from a lady who has a narcissistic mother):-

"Young children are not known for their long attention spans. This works in your favor. With younger children you have the advantage of distraction. It is easy enough to get the child's mind off onto another track. Every parent has done the distraction routine at one time or another. "Mommy, I want to see NastyGram today!" "Honey, we aren't going to see NastyGram today because we get to go to the park and eat ice cream." (Make up fun time on the spot if necessary for this distraction.) "Yay!!" sez the kid and off we go. Subject changed, kid distracted. In time, NastyGram will fade from memory. Any bonding that may have occurred will dissipate in the process of time.

Remember, you are the parent. You're older and therefore more experienced which is the point of being the parent. The child is dependent on your good sense and protective wisdom. You're smarter than your child; use that to your advantage (such as using the distraction method). You are the final authority. This is not a negotiable issue. Kidlet doesn't get to decide on this one because they lack the understanding, wisdom, experience and good sense that, hopefully, you have. So don't look like you're unsure or open to quibble. You'll undermine yourself if you look anything but firm and resolved on it. Use your advantages as parent to smooth the effects of the cut-off. Over time this will all quiet down. Kids tend to accept what is".

Thanks for the advice Attila, mampam, They, I think it's time to start reducing contact. Problem is DC adore their granddad, he is really chilled, lots of fun (he's 80 now!) and is the master of the distraction technique. I don't know where he picked up his parenting skills from because he was barely around when we were younger.

Another complication is I believe the ex's dad to be a narcissist as well (with small man syndrome to boot). He cannot take any criticism at all and is prone to sudden rages. I think the ex suffers from BPD and possibly NPD to some extent after her own childhood. They live a bit further away though so ex relies on my mum and dad for support more. This also annoys me because sometimes I feel like my mum is taking her side a lot of the time and still inviting her to family stuff.

My mum is really subtle in her emotional abuse too. A disapproving look here, tone of voice there. And she is all smiles and sweetness in public or with friends and other relatives.

Your children may well "adore" their granddad but all your ex's family and your mother in particular are simply not decent role models to their grandchildren. Problems also tend to occur when the children are older and start noticing more; they do not like this at all. You need to keep yourself and them well away from such people as of right now; these people may already be choosing a favourite amongst your own offspring.

It will also only take a disapproving look from your mother or some barbed comment to emotionally harm your children and it will happen right in front of your very eyes. Never leave them alone with your mother or any of your ex's family particularly her dad.

Narcissists as well tend to seek out other narcissistic or other disordered people; it is of no surprise to me whatsoever that your ex wife and your mother seem to get on well. They are really one and the same; your mother sees that woman as an extension of her.

Abusive people can be quite plausible to those in the outside world but their mask does slip (they cannot keep up the act forever) and they do not fool everyone.

Sorry I had to 'pop out' which ended up taking all day

What inspired me to write was the op. It got to the point where the mother denies anything ever happened and states I must have made it up.....that statement is so, so true!

This may be epic, and probably garbled time-wise.

My bio father exited my life when I was 4 months old. I met him for the first time when I was 13. He wasn't overly nice about me, said I wasn't the kind of daughter he envisaged having. Admittedly I was.....difficult....but he had no idea what I had been through and, of course, my mother didn't tell him that for the past 3 years I had been batted between her and my foster carer. I don't think she told him why I behaved the way I did or, if she did, the bloke had no heart.

You see, the man she left him for (or he left her when he found out but I get conflicting stories so can't be sure) ended up sexually and physically abusing me and my sister (his child also). I was so much more angrier than my sister but I think that's because of mothers reaction when we told her (I was 7 and my sister was 9). When we told her my mother embraced my sister, told her she was sorry, that she would tell the police for her.....I didn't get any of that, I was pretty much ignored. My sister gave a statement to the police, I was never asked so I can only assume my mother never reported him for the sexual abuse or beatings I suffered at the hands of that man. She also got 10k from the courts (or whoever gives victim compensation) when she turned 18. I got nothing. I didn't want monetary compo, just for someone to actually acknowledge and believe me.

Throughout my teen years my mother was vile to me. Whenever she had had enough of me I was shipped back into care. She regularly beat me up but said it was my fault for being a 'problem child'. When I was 14 we had an argument before school about my then boyfriend. It was a pathetic argument, but it ended with her punching me in the face and I walked into my science lesson with a bleeding lip. Because I was late in I couldn't go in unnoticed and everyone saw the state I was in, it was humiliating. That was the last morning I ever left my mothers house, that night I stayed at a friends house and spent 2 weeks sofa surfing before I found the courage to phone my social worker. I was then put into several foster homes over the next 18 months, until, at 16, I was placed in supported lodgings.

During all of that I managed to pass 10 GCSE's. Ok so they weren't the best grades (6 D's, 3 C's, and a B) but I was so proud I had managed to pass any. When I told my mother she asked when I was going to re-sit them. I felt crushed by that.

From the age of 16 I was in a mentally and abusive relationship. This lasted 11 years. My mother was very much on his side, said I must have been a total pain to live with. He knew this, whenever I did something 'wrong' he would always say 'I wonder what your mum would say'. That sounds harmless enough but I knew what it meant. At 18 I made a very serious suicide attempt following unceremoniously being kicked out of the care system on my 18th birthday. I kid you not, the morning of my 18th my social worker showed up with a letter outlining that their responsibility to me had now ceased as I was classed an adult. I seriously hope they have changed the system since then.

Anyway, just over 6 years ago, something snapped. She had been really rude to me and my new boyfriend (who is still my dp). I cannot go into the previous weeks of abuse from her, not because it was awful but because I'm sure it would seem ridiculous. It was all small things but that's how she worked, drip drip drip of abuse. Snide comment here, openly grotesque comment there. But I snapped after she scowled at me (I had been waiting outside her house for nearly an hour, even though the visit was pre-arranged) and slammed her door in my face. Even my poor dad (well, step dad but has always been dad since I was 7) had no idea what. The issue was. I told him there and then that I was cutting contact, I had had 27 years of being made to feel like a waste of space and I'd had enough.

Cut to now.....I've been in contact for nearly a year. I've tried to talk to her about it but all she says is 'I don't remember that' or 'no, bread, that never happened' or she plays it all down. Sometimes I think 'fuck you, I'm off again' other times I just feel like I should let it drop as the past is the past. The good thing is that, just as contact resumed, we moved 100 miles away so all contact is on my terms.

i also have a younger brother. His bio dad is the man that abused me. My mother did horrendous things to him too, before putting him into care at 9 years old because he reminded her of his dad (he was a child ffs!) he was left and had no contact with mother until he was 19. I adore my brother and have never associated him with my abuser. I still cry when I think about the things he was put through and more than 20 years have passed.

So thank you for letting me off load and well done if you ever got to the end of this. There is much more to my life but I think I've taken enough time of yours.

Breadstix welcome and

I am a bit low and tired today but didn't want to read and run. You have been through a lot.

Sure and Wondering, hello to you too. Wondering, your mum sounds like mine. I have been NC for about 6 months now. I feel so much calmer and my mood is generally miles better day to day. (This time last year I had several days where I struggled to even bother getting dressed.)

Hi bread, thank you for sharing your story. I am in awe of how you've come through so much. I currently feel like a veil has been lifted and am now able to see just how toxic some of the people in my life have been and are continuing to be. The worst part is that one is my own mum and the other (my ex) is the mum of my DC.

She (the ex) seems okay with them, and quite encouraging and loving but she just looks and talks to me like I'm the evil one (read piece of shit) here, tries to guilt trip me all the time about me abandoning my kids (which I haven't and don't plan to) and having broken her heart.

I can't exactly go NC with her if I want to see my DC as much as possible.

I had a 'family' do tonight at my DC's house and my parents were there as well as ex. I spent as much time with DC as possible, didn't hardly speak to my mum, ex was just horrid and scowly, lots of bitter utterances. DC were great :)

Couldn't wait to get DC out of there and back to mine. DS is now asleep, and just about to have usual bedtime chat with DD.

Thank you everyone, I think this is really helping me.

I can't possibly reply to everyone in this thread, but I'm so sorry for the mental, physical and emotional abuse you have all had to go through and for which you still suffer.

A few things I think bear repeating...

Yes, there will always be other people who had it worse. This doesn't mean your abuse wasn't serious. One major reason I kept my father's abuse mostly secret was because I thought it wasn't really that serious because I wasn't being locked in cupboards or starved or beaten senseless with belts. My abuse could have been worse, but it should not have happened at all.

But we took you to stately homes! Yeah, like above. Abusers will often bang on and on about perfectly normal, ordinary things they do that are just normal adult responsibilities. You are SUPPOSED to feed, clothe and house you children. You are SUPPOSED to take them on outings. Anyone who thinks doing such basic elements of childcare makes them saints of parenthood is showing how low their standards actually are. My father liked to wibble and get all emotional about how wonderful he was because he never hit me with an implement, but only with his hands (flat handed slaps across the face, punches in the mouth, kicks to the legs, hurling books at my head, raising fists, telling me he'd knocked grown men down before and would use the same force on me, telling me to jump out of the window so I'd die - but he didn't hit me with a belt so he was a wonderful, caring father!).

There will always be some good times too. Nobody is just one thing all the time. Abusers are complicated and contradictory like everyone else. They may even take you to stately homes! My father took me to the park to fly kites and to museums, but he still went on to call me a fucking parasite and a piece of shit and attempt to chuck me out of the house when I was 15.

It wasn't your fault. You were a child for God's sake. Or maybe you were like me, a teenager who was sometimes a bit mouthy and moody. That's what kids and teenagers are like. Abusers generally have a self image that doesn't even faintly resemble who they really are. In their minds, they are the victims, the ones struggling with a hard past, the ones for whom everything is just so terrible and they can't be held responsible for abusing others when those others so steadfastly refuse to reflect the identity they claim, the person they think they are, when the world doesn't behave the way they believe it ought to. My father steadfastly blamed me for his unwillingness even to attempt to control his anger or not escalate situations as the adult and parent. It was my fault for making him angry. I knew he'd hit me if I didn't just nod and cry and go away, so it was my fault he lost control and went to strangle me (luckily kept back by my mother). The abuser's motto is, "Look what you made me do."

Ok, so had an awkward conversation with my brother tonight when he rang me. He thinks I'm reading too much into it and and am guilty of projecting my feelings onto our mum. He knows our mum is fucked up but doesn't believe she is a narcissist. Reckons I've been reading too much pop psychology and should just get on with things.

What I am most gutted about tonight though is that he told me about my dad's reaction when me and my mum had an argument about 3-4 months ago.

Basically my mum was starting to be pissy with me on the phone, really cold. So I went round there and said 'I thought I'd better come round and talk to you face to face because you've been really cold and crappy with me on the phone'. Cue blazing row with me getting angry at her and her patronising comments and eventually we argued it out and she broke down and made up. Then my dad appeared, told him what had happened, to which he said maybe it needed to happen.

Only my brother tells me tonight that when he spoke to my dad about it, my dad was really angry with me for shouting at my mum and said 'he would have decked me if he'd arrived on the scene sooner!' Like WTF!!! He's 80yo!!!

I don't know what version of events my mum has spun after the fact but I am so angry at him for taking her fucking side. I think you guys are right and he is enabling her behaviour. I previously thought my dad was okay, and just trapped (too late) in a loveless relationship, but now I just feel betrayed by both of them, and even my brother to a certain extent.

I just thank my lucky stars that I have such a wonderful new partner and my two beautiful, lovely, lovely children who are sound asleep in my flat right now.

I know I just have to focus on the positive things in my life and minimise any future emotional damage to my children. I know the breakup with my ex has been hard for them to deal with but I so didn't want to end up like my own father. i am sure he is miserable and wished his life had been different.

I had the strength to leave my ex and forge a new life (I never cheated on her btw even though I was desperately unhappy, I have morals) and I know I have the strength to get through this somehow. Everyone on this thread is an inspiration, just for being able to talk and share and listen.

People from dysfunctional families end up playing roles. Your brother is probably still the "golden child" in this scenario and does not want to rock the boat. He may well see his position as being threatened hence his words towards you. Denial is also a powerful force and there is perhaps an element of that here within him as well.

Ultimately I would go low or even no contact with both parents (and perhaps your brother as well).

Unfortunately women like your mother always need a willing enabler to help them and your dad fits the bill. He like many weak men also need someone to idolise. This man failed completely to protect you and your brother from her, he was really her hatchet man and could never be relied upon. He made a choice and he chose her above his now adult children.

Sure,

re your comment:-

"I know I just have to focus on the positive things in my life and minimise any future emotional damage to my children. I know the breakup with my ex has been hard for them to deal with but I so didn't want to end up like my own father. i am sure he is miserable and wished his life had been different".

I do not have a lot of sympathy for your dad. He perhaps is indeed miserable but he still made a choice and he chose his wife at your and your brother's overall expense. He has stayed with her for his own (selfish) reasons, he gets what he wants out of this relationship with her. He perhaps is narcissistic himself.

The best revenge here is to live well, indeed focus on the positive things in your life and keep away from people including family members who suck the very joy out of living. You won't end up like your dad (its a big fear amongst adult children of toxic parents that they themselves will turn into their parents) also because you have two qualities that he lacks; empathy and insight.

Attila, quite simply, thank you

You're welcome :).