"But we took you to Stately Homes!" Survivors of Dystfunctional Families

[Meerka]

It's May 2015, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
March 2015

Dec 14- March 15

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

zorian

I you can do CBT courses online.

I have just started it myself face to face and even after one session it really has opened my eyes. When you said that you were 'really shocked parents can create feelings like this in a child'; when I had my session, I was told that we create rules to survive and these often stem from family life....dysfunctional family life.

Could you take DC for a walk on your own, so that you can get away for a few hours?

Zorion,

So your mother is a narcissist and your father is an alcoholic. You really do owe these people nothing although I would think the FOG (fear, obligation and guilt) within you is very much present. Do read the resources at the start of this thread as well.

Your mother and father enable each other to continue as they are; they both get what they want out of their dysfunctional relationship.

I would also be contacting Al-anon particularly if they are in your country of residence.

TBH I would leave today, not tomorrow. They were not good parents to you and still are not. They are also deplorably bad role models to your child. No contact would indeed be advisable going forward.

It is often the case when adult children of dysfunctional parents become parents themselves that it dawns on them just how bad their own childhood was.

I would protect yourself and your family unit from these two; no contact is the way forward. They do not and will not bring anything at all positive into your life.

It is also not possible to have any sort of relationship with a narcissist.

Thank you for your replies. They mean a lot.

I have toyed over the idea of NC for a while but have elderly and unwell grandparents who I adore with all my heart, and it would hurt them so much. I know when they go there will be no more duty Christmases, but I don't want them to. They got me through my childhood and are my role models. My siblings are the golden children but I'd miss DBro too. Definitely LC though, we have a trip to England at the end of the month and will not go to them.

Atilla, interesting you mention AlAnon as I have a friend who goes regularly here, but she is fluent in the language. She has spoken a lot about what a huge help they have been. I was always planning to go when I move back to England (and to a counsellor!) but they are a major reason why we moved countries!

When DS wakes up from his nap I'm going to take him to the beach and plan to stay out late and get him dinner out, that way we can go to bed as soon as we get back. He is an absolute delight and I want to enjoy his company.

I left the flat, I told toddler DS a cheery "say goodbye to grandad!" And my drunk father responded "oh sod off you bitch." He also kept asking DS to "ask mummy what noise a cow makes."

I just need to write it down so it stays there in black in white when my Mum tries to minimize it, "oh but you
wouldn't call him a drinker per se..."

I don't want my beautiful, innocent, good DS to hear his grandfather call his mother a bitch.

Now sat on beach. Can't call
DH as will cry and am in public.

I agree, try and get away. These people don't deserve you or your DS

Zorion so sorry you're having such an awful time.

Is there any way you could get back home, with DS, on your own before your DH arrives? Train? Coach? Alternatively, can you brief DH that he will need to pick you up tomorrow evening and then you'll both go straight home (or stay in a hotel overnight if he's had a long drive)?

If you don't want a confrontation, say to the pair of disgusting abusers parents that DH has a family emergency or something? Or work emergency? Whatever, just to get away from them.

You sound so vulnerable and I hate to think of you and your DS stuck there with such poisonous people.

Regarding counselling, GoodToBetter had Skype counselling sessions with someone in the UK and said she found it incredibly helpful. If you look on the BACP website for counsellors and send out a few email enquiries, you can surely find someone who will do Skype sessions.

Zorian I think everyone has pretty much summed it up. I get what you say about your grandparents so LC is maybe the way to go.

I know it is not unusual but it amazes me that parents think it is ok to treat their children this way

Zorian I agree with pocket can you create an 'emergency' as a way of leaving? What an awful situation.

You do deserve better than this and you don't deserved to be treated or spoken to that way especially in front of DS.

Thank you everyone for commenting.

I'm not sure just yet about leaving. I want DS and DH to have their holiday. DH seems to think we can keep out of their way with trips.. He arrives in an hour and a bit. Luckily we can invent a family emergency if we need to. Also, in one week time they will go and we will have the apartment to ourselves, I wouldn't put it past them to change the locks if we did go...

Today was the normal, pretend nothing happened, eggshell walking. Me making polite remarks whilst seething inside. I never argue with them, despite being a natural debater who doesn't back down, so the way DF spoke to me was not retaliation, just out of the blue I think he feels my judgment of his drinking and that makes him angry.

I'm trying to hold on to yesterday's pain and anger. I need it to help me go (and stay) LC. I am so grateful for your messages yesterday.

May I join please? I'm a bit of a lurker, always looked for the answers to my problems with my parents. Basically I've just had another blow-up with my Dad. These have happened with regularity for as long as I can remember. As with most of us with nutty families, my lot are complicated and multi-layered and I wouldn't know where to start with all the history.
But I'm looking for some advice on going NC with my Dad. How do you manage this with children? My two DS's love their grandparents and my Dad is very fond of them. I don't want to stop that relationship but how do I cope with it all? My mum is not as bad, she has her moments but she loves me and tries to manage him and my brother (he is at home, severe aspergers). I've always been her crutch, we always need to keep the peace etc etc. I love my Dad dearly but I can't cope with his anger and rejection any more. When I left him yesterday I think I knew I would never see him again. I'm very mixed up.

MoreEggs It seems like you've had that moment where something just clicks inside you and you know that enough is enough. I had this with my own toxic mother and with regards to the children, at the time they were 10, 7, and less than a year old, not old enough to maintain a relationship with her on their own without intervention from me i.e. me dropping off at her house or answering the door if she came to fetch them. I wasn't prepared to have any type of contact with her at all, not even for a minute or a few seconds.

At the end of the day I think it is more important for children to have their mother happy and healthy than for them to have a relationship with a toxic relative.

It doesn't matter how fond your dad is of your children and them of him, his awful behaviour is bound to rub off on them/affect them in some way.

Whatever you decide to do it won't be an easy ride. I had some counselling to help me clarify things in my head. I wonder if this would help you too?

Zorion sounds like you and DH have a short term plan for the duration of your holiday at least. I hope you can stick it out until your parents leave and then bloody well enjoy the rest of your holiday in peace.

FIL has now changed the locks on the garage door so that DH cannot access. It is not the main place that DH keeps his work stuff but it ensures that DH has no access to the larger machinery. DH just needs to work out what is in the garage that belongs to him. Next goal is to get all of DH's work stuff off of IL's land.

We have looked online and found this website and it has been really helpful to DH. We realise now that he is being "punished" for not "obeying" his parents. Not really the actions though of loving parents who want to have a relationship with their son and keep contact with their GC as they made out in the letters they sent to DH.

Thanks mampam
Yes, this was the moment you describe. I find this very difficult with regard to the children - both my parents idolise them and the children love being with them. In many ways I can see that they have transferred all their parental love to the children. I am a disappointment to them, I'm not playing the role I should be (i.e. being their child and complying with their rules). Since the argument on Friday, my husband has seen them and my Dad is resolute he doesn't want to talk to me again. My mum mentioned something about how "this has been going on for three years now" - which I think refers to my postnatal depression and mental health (which I struggle with). One of the things that really hurt me was that during the argument my Dad screamed at me that I needed to sort my head out. He has a history of depression. I thought he of all people would know how hard it is to recover and get well.
And Zorion - your situation sounds awful. I hope your DH can be a buffer whilst your parents are still there.

MoreEggs So both your dad and your mum are using your mental health against you. What is your relationship like with your mother?
TBH I think that using mental health against you is classic narc behaviour. They see it as a vulnerability and pick on that. It's precisely the reason why I never told my own mother when I had PND or that I suffer with anxiety and panic attacks. Unfortunately FIL knows that I have been for counselling in the past which is why he has issued the ultimatum that I either go for counselling or I have to leave our home.
What does your DH have to say about this, is he supportive of you?

MoreEggs How old are your children?

I am sure that your parents do love their grandchildren as I am sure mine love theirs. It doesn't stop the behaviour and as my DC got older they could see for themselves.

My relationship with my mum is rocky. It used to be much closer. I think my two major depressive periods, a marriage split, a divorce and two children out of wedlock have disappointed her. Plus she has got crabby as she has got older and is very judgemental. I have found motherhood hard and probably have got crabby too. She is a bit of a narc, a nice one, if that is possible. But everything comes back to her. Both her and Dad adore adore adore the children (who are 6 and nearly 3) so I am struggling with the obvious and clear affection they show them but the complete disconnect there is with us. I'm not jealous or envious of that - it just makes me feel like I am bad, wrong, grumpy, awkward, self conscious .
I confided in a lovely friend today and felt suddenly very emotional when I said it was almost a relief to hear how much my Dad dislikes me. I've been craving a better relationship with him for a long time - been through lots of therapy for this - written a letter to my parents about how much I love them, how I struggle with the depression etc. I even managed to hug him last week (I get very little back). BUT this argument and what he said has almost freed me of the fight to make our relationship better.
Does any of that make sense? It's incredibly confusing.

MoreEggs - if it helps - my DCs are 7 and 4. Also adore their grandparents and I had vowed when I went NC that as soon as they mentioned their grandparents or not seeing them that I'd find a way to facilitate contact for them

That was 3 months ago

And even when my DPs just sent a card for my DDs 4th birthday (when they would usually have visited and brought lots of presents) the DCs didn't really raise an eyebrow

Children are so fabulously fickle and self centred sometimes it's wonderful!

And I agree with the PP (can't check- on phone) and they are much better off with a happier mum than 2 extra people in their lives

At least that's what I tell myself!

more eggs please

re your comment:-

"Both her and Dad adore adore adore the children (who are 6 and nearly 3) so I am struggling with the obvious and clear affection they show them but the complete disconnect there is with us."

Your children may well not notice that now but they certainly will when they are older. They may also "adore" these children primarily because they are easily influenced and currently do not answer back. They could well start bad mouthing you to them or in front of them, shower them with gifts and suchlike (they also perhaps have more disposable income). If your parents cannot behave decently around you as their mother, then they should see none of you at all. Bad behaviours should never be rewarded with any contact.

A percentage of the general population is dysfunctional and/or abusive. That percentage, like everyone else, has children. Then those children grow and have children of their own. The not-so-loving grandparents expect to have a relationship with their grandchildren. The only problem is, they’re not good grandparents.

Many adult children of toxic parents feel torn between their parents’ (and society’s) expectation that grandparents will have access to their grandkids, and their own unfortunate first hand knowledge that their parents are emotionally/physically/sexually abusive, or just plain too difficult to have any kind of healthy relationship with.

The children’s parents may allow the grandparents to begin a relationship with their children, hoping that things will be different this time, that their parents have really changed, and that their children will be emotionally and physically safer than they themselves were.

Unfortunately, this is rarely the case, because most abusive people have mental disorders of one kind or another, and many of these disorders are lifelong and not highly treatable. (Others are lifelong and treatable; however, many people never seek the necessary help.)

The well-intentioned parent ends up feeling mortified for having done more harm than good by hoping things would somehow be different — instead of having a child who simply never knew their grandparents and who was never mistreated, they have an abused child who is now also being torn apart by the grief involved in having to sever a lifelong relationship with the unhealthy people they are very attached to.

Why would you want your children to have contact with them when they are awful to you?. Its a mistake partly made out of thinking/hoping that they'll be better behaved this time around to your children. Not all grandparents are nice and loving and yours certainly are not.

Its not your fault your parents are like this and FWIW I think your dad is her enabler/hatchet man. He has also totally failed to protect you from her as well (such weak men need someone to idolise and narcissistic women always but always need a willing enabler to help them).

It would not surprise me either if your parents were either already using your children as narcissistic supply or having a clear favourite with the other being scapegoated. They do tend to over value or under value the relationship they have with their grandchildren. Narcissists make for being deplorably bad grandparent figures as well (for example my late narcissistic FIL barely figured in our lives and his only interest was his own self).

Hi everyone. I have namechanged. Hope it's okay to post here but I need to vent and share what's just happened. My mother has been staying with us on and off to help with my daughter who has ASD. The idea was to give her a bit more extra one-to-one attention, which arguably has been helpful, but it is an arrangement I have been struggling with because I find our relationship very difficult some of the time.

Yesterday we picked my daughter up from nursery and I had to pop to the supermarket to pick up a couple of items. I was carrying my baby, didn't get a trolley because I didn't think we'd be long, but some of the items were quite heavy so I was struggling a bit. My mother took my daughter and wandered off rather than stick around and help me (something she always does. When we're getting ready to go out she will always say 'I'll start down the road then'; it's like she can't bear to wait around for other people. Is this behaviour that anyone recognises?).

So I got what I needed and met them them back at the checkouts. My daughter was whinging, probably because she wanted a biscuit. My mum had picked up a packet of something (I don't know what, but I assumed it was chocolate). We put it on the checkout, DD kept whinging, and I could see my mother was getting a bit worked up, looking around making comments about how the noise goes right through you, she picked up the packet and was holding it, which I thought was making the situation worse because DD was expecting it to be opened and it wasn't. So I pointed this out and suggested she put it back on the checkout. I thought I was calm. I thought I was polite, but the rage kicked off.

"Unnacceptable!" she says, and I know it doesn't sound like much but it's the voice she used and the way she said it. It's the voice she has used through out my life, I guess when she feels I've overstepped the bounds. On the way to the car, I get told I'm selfish, and blah blah blah, but I'm less willing to put up with this bullshit now, so I got the pram out of the car and took the kids off on my own.

It's that feeling that she's using this voice to keep me in line, while she can make any number of critical comments aimed at me, and if I say anything about it, I'm being oversensitive -- the front garden looks awful, for example, or that I look chavvy in a particular outfit and she won't go leave the house with me if I'm dressed like that (admittedly, I didn't look great, but that's not really the point).

Oh, and the last time it went really nuclear is because DH and I were watching Deal or No Deal, and we should know she doesn't like it (We think it's shit too; we were laughing about it together). It would almost be something to laugh about, if I wasn't dealing with fear that's been deeply ingrained in me since childhood.

I confronted her this morning, calmly started to tell her that her own behaviour was unnacceptable, and immediately she started shouting at me that I'm a 'daft twat', and that if I want her to go I should just say so. So I did, and the rest of the morning has been a whirlwind of her packing up to go while attacking me about how little time I spend with the kids, how she's helped us with money to buy the house, how the house stinks and I just sit on my 'fat lazy arse' behind the screen of a computer... Oh yes, and I'm not her daughter anymore.

Apparently she was talking to my husband last night about how ashamed she is of me.

All because I don't want to be snapped at like a child when I'm not being polite enough. And actually, I shouldn't have been treated that way as a child either.

The worst thing is that there is a grain of truth to it. I do feel that I don't always spend enough time with the kids, and the house is often a mess, but I'm trying to do more and keep on top of it.

Sorry this has been so long, and compared to what a lot of you have been through it all seems so trivial. I know I can be difficult, snappish, impatient sometimes. It's just ridiculous how it escalates, and I'm almost positive that I'm not the one escalating it, although I try not to engageand remain calm I still find myself being sucked in. Anyway, I just wanted to get it out and remind myself next time I start to loosen and think about letting her come back. I hope we can salvage our relationship, but I am positive that her staying here is deeply unhealthy for both of us.

Moreeggs the eye opener to me and what made me go LC with my parents was when I figured out my parents were starting the same favourtism scapegoating etc with their grandchildren, it hit me like a ton of bricks and I spent the next few days being a emotional mess and crying and I will admit downing a few glasses of wine

That was at Christmas and it's still so hard I have my good days and bad days but I have to stay strong and while my dd did wonder why we weren't visiting granny and granddad anymore now she doesn't even ask, children are fickle and can be easily distracted it hasn't been easy but it's a lot easier than being around my parents and watching them spread their poison!!

Toxic parents don't change I hoped and believed mine would but they don't they continue it with the grandchildren.

I truly think that my IL's have gone insane. They have started to sell the machinery that DH uses for work from under his feet. This morning DH has received a text from MIL asking if one day this week DC's 3&4 could go around for lunch. She signed the message off with "Mum x". DH has always called his mother by her Christian name and not Mum.

Does she truly think that after all they have said and done in the last few weeks that we are willingly going to let our DC's go around to there house for lunch? Just like that no questions asked? DC4 is only just 9 months old for goodness sake. They have never even shown that much interest in him before. Do they think I'm going to happily drop the kids around to their house, say here's the changing bag, DS has a nap at such a time etc etc.

DH is really struggling at the moment. He never thought that his parents would be so callous as to start selling the work machinery. I think it has knocked him for six. He is also feeling really guilty that once we get out of here that DC3 (who they keep reminding him adores her granny and granddad) won't have a relationship with them.

I'm going to show DH your post Attila as I think you have summed up why grandchildren cannot have a relationship with toxic grandparents perfectly, much better than I can explain anyway.

Sorry their house not there house

Hi wondering. It sounds like you've had a tough couple of days and you're being very hard on yourself. Not spending enough time with the kids and having a messy house? There's plenty of really good and kind parents guilty of that - please don't beat yourself up. You are not perfect, but you are doing your best. Don't let other people tell you who or what you are, believe in yourself and who you are. Wish I had more words of wisdom but hope that helps.