"But we took you to Stately Homes!" Survivors of Dystfunctional Families

[Meerka]

It's May 2015, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
March 2015

Dec 14- March 15

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Thanks Meerka :)

My brother definitely won't be one as he is mentally tortured (sometimes in the weirdest ways) by her on a regular basis. The real problem will be my aunt. She is the loveliest person you could ever meet. She practically reared me. She is a very nervous person and doesn't like conflict. She's a fixer too and will ring me soon (having received a phone call from M telling her how I've abandoned her and really hurt her ) and put pressure on me to contact M and make amends. Thinking about it, I'm actually more worried about hurting her or causing her worry than I am my M.

My mind is made up though. I expect a dip in my resolve but I'm prepared for it so fingers crossed.

I'm accepting what she did was very wrong. As a child, she hit me, slapped me hard at the back of my head repeatedly, beat me with a belt, threatened me regularly, made me her carer because she 'couldn't cope', made me clean the entire house with the threat of "I'll kill ya when I come back if it's not done". I'm a list person today because I used to write lists of what had to be done in each room so I didn't forget anything. She let me smoke pot at 14. I was pregnant at 14 and taken for an abortion. I was called into her room while she had a 'new' boyfriend in there and invited to have conversation (nothing sinister but highly inappropriate) and she would be all giddy and like a teenager trying to make her friend jealous, like seriously weird shit. I moved out at 17 and she stalked me. Couldn't stand that I escaped. I don't even want to write any more of it because...fuck her! I can't. I'm angry. I'll get over it.

nconenc I feel so like you. I get the promiscuity. The weird, inappropriate shit. It wasn't okay. I am only learning that TODAY. For 37 years I believed my M when she told me I was a bad kid. Gave her terrible trouble and she couldn't control me. Bollox, I was a kid! You were a kid. Now were both adults trying to make sense of it all. I think the first or one of the first steps in that process is to allow yourself to say 'it wasn't okay'. I wish I could offer more but I'm just starting this journey. What I can say is, I'm here :)

fortycoats you have a world of mistreatment to come to terms with, I think. She seems to play mind and power games and never to have put you and your brother first. It's no way to bring a child up, ever.

Is there anyone you can talk it over with?

also, is there someone you can practise replies to your aunt with? Something like "I know you want the best for everyone Aunt but this isn't something I can do any more. I don't want to discuss it any further".

If you have to, determinedly change the conversation to something else. If she insists on talking about your mother, if you absolutely have to you can gently say "I don't think we shoudl talk about this any more. I need to go, shall I ring you next week/month/whenever? But I'd appreciate it if we do not discuss my mother". if you consistently change the subject or cut the conversation short, in the end she'll get the message. It doesn't have to be rude.

I actually think your aunt is acting in her own interests (i.e that of fixing because doing that meets a codependent type need within her) rather than your own. She could also now play out the role here of "flying monkey" as well. In the end it may well be that you have to completely reassess your relationship with your aunt because she may well not be a healthy presence around you either.

I will definitely be able to steer the conversation away from M because my aunt is not a pushy person. She's timid, very very timid. I just know that the fallout will hurt her desperately and, though I know I will not change my mind, I feel so sad that I'll be causing that hurt.

What I wrote in that last post is only the tip of the iceberg. I've had many therapists since 14 but always leave them. Today, I'm contacting the last one to tell him I'd like to return and this time I won't be shutting down when M comes up.

Hi Attila sadly, I have no doubt you're right :( She has been M's enabler since as far back as I can remember. She always 'saved' M from whatever crisis she found herself in, excused her behaviour, rudeness and sometimes aggression towards her. She's a very religious lady and believes in being nice to everyone. She's unwavering in her faith.

I am just not ready to face that yet. I know I can stop the conversation and I will but I'm not ready to deal with the hurt that is going to cause. She more or less reared me. She was everything my M wasn't, poles apart. She looks like you could physically break her. I will stay strong though. Well maybe not strong but determined.

Today, I'm contacting the last one to tell him I'd like to return and this time I won't be shutting down when M comes up.

that's a very big step, forty. Hope it doesn't come over as patronising. But to go back, -knowing- that you are going to face the giant black boulder in your past that is your mother, is a very big step when you've not been able to before.

I personally think 'religious' people who want everything to be nice are actually not as religious as all that. Peace at any price = the shits in life walking all over others. Christ stood up to people quickly and very decisively when he felt it was right, according to the New Testament.

On the other hand, by not making waves your aunt could stay in your life and be a good influence. If she'd stood up to your mother, maybe she'd have been shoved out of the picture.

My Aunt has always let people walk all over her. I've fought with her and stopped talking to her many times throughout my life because of the shit she allowed people to do to her and forgave them for without them even apologising. My M is identical to my deceased GM and I truly believe my aunt is a very damaged individual (a daughter of a narc mother) who relies on her faith being 'the right way' rather than confronting her own demons. I feel life has punished her enough for 10 people. I feel she has open wound dressed in prayerful bandages and she's comforted by them. I'm not going to change how she thinks at 69yrs old and I don't want to. I feel that would be stealing from her.

The decision to go back to my counsellor is based, partly on the help I've gotten on MN in the last two days and partly on the DONM link. I read it agape. I had more or less made my mind up at that point but the phone call last night sealed the deal.

I have neglected myself for 15 years and put her needs before my own since I was a child. Now it's my time. I am a good mother but I'm going to try to be a better one by leading by example instead of just word alone and that means showing my DD how to have self-esteem and good self-care.

You folks are wonderful x

From what you say, yes fortycoats your aunt is a casualty of war - the war the self-centred and selfish mother inflicts on her children. And partner. And everyone else around.

Very, very sad. I deeply believe that actually, people need to stand up to narcissistic individuals - I believe it is a duty because it's about the only way that people learn that there are some limits that cannot be crossed.

rather paradoxically I believe that people have to fight their own battles and at the same time, if they can other people should intervene on behalf of vulnerable people. Sometimes it means the world that someone is prepared to stand up for you, when you can't stand up for yourself. I think that's called believing two contradictory things at once!

She is Meerka. She was the eldest girl and all the shit was flung in her direction since childhood until the day my GM died. I've fought battles for her. I've ranted and threatened my uncles after they each physically attacked her when she disagreed with them on separate occasions but the saddest part was her asking me to just forget about it all and be nice and soon after she'd be sending them money or 'saving' them in some way again. They were leeches, parasites to her good nature and loving heart. I hate them, real hate.

How is everyone else doing today?

Hi forty
It's nice seeing you here having such huge revelations what I would say is when you have a dip in resolve and question everything, remember to come back and re-read these posts you wrote while you were feeling angry and powerful. It's like having notes from a best friend who knows everything you've been through

The thing that resonated with me in your posts was this: My brother definitely won't be one as he is mentally tortured (sometimes in the weirdest ways) by her on a regular basis.
I, to an extent, feel the same solidarity with my siblings. Although they're still in very close contact with my mum she tortures them every day. My mum did something so shockingly boundariless and gaslight-y last week to one of them my face has been like this since my fingers have been itching to type it here since I heard but it would out me. Anyway what I was going to say is, even though they understand so well, what you have to remember is that if your brother isnt NC his thoughts do differ from your slightly.
Every now and then my sister will rant that she stopped having an argument with my mum because my mum said she felt suicidal, and add 'I mean I know she didn't mean it, but...' - or my brother will agree with everything I say and shrug and say you just need to let it wash over you. He genuinely doesn't understand why it would affect me if I know my mum is wrong. He's so black and white. When this happens I question why they can do it and I can't. But please know that you can feel the same and do different things. Take the support from your aunt and brother, and leave the suggestions that you're taking things too far now.

I'm sort of typing that to remind myself too. A bit wobbly today, I find it so difficult to trust myself. I suppose as long as I keep doing and saying the right things it doesn't matter how unsure my mind is.

LH, that's exactly how I feel about my brother. He is always on the phone telling me the latest crazy, mean thing she has done but after I've calmed him down he just says things like "ah she's just mad, I mostly ignore her".
I've just today told him he shouldn't have to feel all the guilt and put up with her tantrums but he likes a quiet life so he lets it slide with her and vents to me. He's 8 years younger than me and I feel incredibly protective of him so my instinct is to ring and ask her to lay off him BUT then he'd say I shouldn't have bothered, he can handle her.

I'm out anyway and I've told him as much today.

What I'm thinking now though is... there can't be any coming back from this can there? I've read there is no cure so where does that leave us? NC and no chance of reconcile because she's never going to believe she did anything wrong? Can she really be blamed if it's a disorder? That's another question I've mulled over - did she actually mean it or is she just sick? I know she was aware because she would pull me back in when she thought she was losing me only to repeat the cycle. She definitely knew what she did. Does that automatically equate to accountability?

LH, I really wish I knew how to support you, like you have me but I'm guessing you can tell I don't really know what I'm doing. All I can say is, if you want to talk, I can listen and if I'm shit at that we'll get the stereo going and play some of toxics songs :)

Narcissists are past masters at the "come closer so I can hurt you again" approach. They know the differences between right and wrong. They know that you are hurt but they do not care that you are hurt.

God forty I don't know what I'm doing either, it's just nice to vent and know other people feel the same
I think your question about if she can help it is why I've been so unsure about how justified I am and why I've been pandering for the last four months disguising my NC as 'leaving the door open' for her, because I'm just not sure and can't bear to do the wrong thing. But now I'm going massively simplify things and say one thing; your actions and reactions hurt me. I am only asking you to acknowledge that and change in the future. Then it doesn't matter if it's a disorder or not or deliberate or not or whatever the circumstances. It's very basic, and it's a yes or no question - and a non toxic parent says wow, yes, help me change. I'm just not looking forward to the backlash to my new 'fuck it' approach to NC.. for myself and everyone else tonight, can't wait for this week to be over.

It's the memories of the nice times that are really getting to me. Not upsetting me but making me question if she could really be that calculating and unfeeling when she could be such a lovey dovey, supportive mother at other times.

It's kind of disbelief now. I bet this is an undulating rollercoaster ride I can't really prepare for. Maybe like you were saying LH, not quite sure how you're feeling or what to think but knowing you just need to keep making conscious, deliberate decisions?

BTW folks, I've notice today I write a little different to a lot of people on MN. I'm not sure if it's an Irish thing/sayings/expressions or whatever but just wanted to get it out there in case you were wondering what I'm saying sometimes

You're very articulate LH You put into words so much better what I try to get across. Thanks for the Have some

I like your approach. it's exactly what it says on the tin as they say. Be nice, yes or no. I had thought in the last hour I should ring and let her know my intention but I don't need to. I can't remember who said it yesterday but it was something along the lines of "she's not grasping in the dark for a reason, she knows exactly what she did".

I wonder if she persists trying to contact me should I bite the bullet and take your approach or ignore and be done with it. I hesitate because I've said all I'd need to say before but like Attila said, she's a master and I refuse to let her do that to me again.

I have no idea if any of that made sense but I'm about to leave for work so rushing.

Have a lovely evening all

Hello. I was pointed to this thread by cozitosie, on a thread I had posted.

Anyone fancy handing me a large cup of tea?

Whilst I read. Not just randomly!

forty not articulate, just think too much I wonder if she persists trying to contact me should I bite the bullet and take your approach or ignore and be done with it. it totally depends on what you want to do, as long as you feel strong enough to stick to NC in whichever choice you make. In my case I never got to say all the things I've never said, I've never said that I wanted NC or that I feel hurt or asked my mum to change. I spent my whole life tiptoeing believing that she'd fall apart if I did and she stopped talking to me anyway. I don't think setting things straight will change her at all but it just doesn't feel settled and I feel like I need to say some things. I'm dreading it though and I'd strongly advise against it if you feel you can settle then just walk away. The answer is probably in your phrasing - one is 'bite the billet' and the other is 'be done with it' - fuck it. Just look after yourself. I'm pretty sure I'm doing the wrong thing. feeling a bit weaker tonight than I have in months. Ugh.

disappointed welcome I didn't see your thread but I'll have a look.

Staffie I don't understand how they can think its OK to pressure someone into contact where its not desired. because they've got their head in the sand and need to justify their own contact I suppose. Because they're afraid of confrontation themselves? Or they don't realise the extent or severity of the abuse/hurt. I don't know really but I suppose it's rarely because they're just selfish and cruel. None of it's black and white is it? It's such a mindfuck.

First time MNing from phone, probably make a balls of it!

Welcome disappointed
I haven't read your thread yet but will get round to it in the morning when I get home. For now, I hope you're doing okay, stay here, have a cuppa and know that everyone here is just lovely and so very supportive (I'm only here since yesterday). Just having people to chat to can lift the spirit and cast light where you thought there was none x

LH I so understand that need and that dread! I wrote M a letter a few years ago because she was impossible to talk to in person. Things were alright for a while when we began speaking again but ultimately she didn't heed a word of it. To me though, that doesn't really matter now because I know she read it, and like it or not, she knows how she made me feel. Would you consider doing something similar? It avoids confrontation and interruption.

Hi everyone....been lurking for a while and trying to drum up the courage to post.

Feeling rather down and not sure where to start tbh. Struggling to sleep.

You still there Phoenix? I'm in work and free to chat for a while if you'd like

Hopefully, you've managed to get to sleep though. Come back when you can. There's no time, or structure to stick to so just post as the feelings hit you if you like. You may feel like it's rambling, I always do, but somehow it comes together and once you've made that start it'll get easier. It's safe and kind of cosy here, to my mind anyway, so whenever you're ready, maybe make a cuppa, pull up a virtual beanbag or lazyboy or whatever takes your fancy and chill here for a while. I've found there's always someone not far away.
Take care

Thank you for the welcome.

staffiegirl - I don't know how to go NC. She had 'disowned' me several times when I've done something to displease her (she even went round telling people she only had two children, at one point!) but I always end up going back. I must like the emotional beating!

I'm guessing many people here have experience of going NC? I just don't know how to do it. It will most likely put a strain on my relationship with other family members, as they will feel in the middle. And for some reason, always stick up for my mum.

Here is a link to my thread for those of you that want to read. There might be a trigger in there, for some of you. Apologies.