"But we took you to Stately Homes!" Survivors of Dystfunctional Families

[Meerka]

It's May 2015, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
March 2015

Dec 14- March 15

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Hi forty, just read your thread. I'm sorry you have to deal with that. Have you decided on NC? I didn't really understand from your post or maybe I'm just being dim
If not maybe this is the time to remind your mum of what you said in the letter and start cutting down contact.

I think you need to protect your dd. Especially if, as you said she's quite sensitive, and she's young enough to be impressionable. Even, for example, you explaining in her earshot that she's just a teenager and can be like that is, to her, confirming that she has been selfish but she just can't help it. If you don't believe that then I would be making sure she hears you disagree. Obviously that's not your fault - it's your mother's doing by suggesting it in the first place and putting you in this position - but I think it's very important that your dd doesn't hear things like that about herself go unchallenged, and not in a 'oh she's just in that phase' way, in a 'no, she's absolutely not selfish, she just won't commit time to somebody who treats her badly' way. In the long term, it's going to be good for her to see you not allow yourself to be treated that way.

Welcome to the thread, and welcome back to mumsnet for what it's worth you sound like a lovely mum and your dd is very lucky to have you.

Thanks for the lovely welcome everyone :)

Toxic, I haven't quite grasped your situation yet (not had time to read the whole thread yet) but I'm glad to read you've found such great support here and I look forward to chatting you upthread when I've caught up.

Button, thanks again. I've been very wobbly today about doing this but I finally feel the strength to do it because it's now moved to my DD and that just won't happen, ever. That said, I couldn't have done it without the support MN has given me today. My mothers actions and words have always been invalidating, today, here, I felt validated x

Loveheart, thank you for that post. That's really made me think. I didn't say anything in front of DD but I know I could be inclined to say something like that directly to her without realising how counterproductive it would be. Yes, I have decided NC. I have given in so many times. Tried to talk so many times. Wrote that letter. All I ever got were replies identical to those in the OP/sticky at the top of this thread.
Enough is enough. I'm not looking forward to what I am sure will come but on the positive I'm not looking back or over my shoulder either. I'm in the present and I'll take it a day at a time.

Will pop back tomorrow. Night night all x

Forty please don't think I was saying you were doing anything wrong. I think you're responding like a normal person but you're reacting to an irrational person who's putting you and your dd in a horrible position. Because of that it's so much more important that your dd understands she couldn't do the right thing if she tried. Good luck with NC. Staying in the present sounds good. We're all here if you need a chat.

LH I didn't think that at all :)
I was grateful that you said it because I could have easily said those things to DD thinking I was saying the right thing.

toxic I totally get the 'could I be enabling' thing! I think I've lived just accepting as normal though not very nice, all the things M said and did. When someone actually says 'that's not right, it's emotional blackmail, cruel, narcissistic etc' it feels ... I don't even know a word to describe it but just wrong or shocking or something.

Today, I don't really feel anything but perhaps it's because every time I've thought about the whole situation, I've deliberately changed my focus to something happy. Avoidance? I don't know and I don't really care either. I know I'm not in a place where I feel capable of dealing with huge emotion so for now I'll have to settle for escapism and hope for the best.

Hope you all have a lovely day :)

Hi everyone, it's been a while and just checking in and really need some advice. My narc mother is in her mid 70's now and is getting very forgetful, she's doing her usual attention grabbing and self pitying telling me she thinks she's got Alzheimer's - she forgets things like times most of all, I've had to start texting or emailing things with dates and times to her in writing or she forgets or gets it wrong, but apart from that she's not really forgetful in other ways that I can see.

She has always conveniently forgotten or denied certain conversations so that's not new, then last week she babysat my 4 year old dd while I had a hospital appointment. She's usually very over the top wonderful Grandma and putting all the love and cuddles into my little girl that she never gave me, she saves all her toxic behaviour for me and my dad adores her, she lives close by and dd is the only reason I see her weekly.

Anyway, I came home to find dd upset and with bad grazes on both forearms and her forehead, dm said dd had fallen over in the garden when my neighbour had invited them round to play with her grandchildren next door. Dm said she didn't see how it happened but made a big thing to my dd in front of me about hoe brave and grown up she'd been about it. She hadn't bothered to wash or treat the grazes which were pretty deep and told me I should do it, I said next time please could you watch her she's only 4 and wash any grades straight away in future, she was over the top oh I'm a naughty Grandma to my dd then left.

She never calls me, she refuses to phone me because once I didn pick up and didn't call back til the next day. My dd wanted her weekly visit so I called to arrange it the other day, when we got there she was gasping at dd's scabs on her grazes, asking how she did it?! I reminded her of the previous week and what she'd told me, plus what my dd had told me that Grandma was chatting indoors to my neighbour and having a cup of tea, while she ran around on the concrete outside with the other children. My mother completely denies remembering it happening, she says she must definitely have Alzheimer's. I can't tell if she's putting on an act in some kind of weird self denial over what happened, or do you think something is really wrong??

moochy1

What are your own boundaries like with regards to your mother?. They seem too low and they need to be raised sharpish (stopping the weekly visits would be a good start).

I would consider lowering your contact even further with your narc mother with a view to going no contact with her as soon as you can do this. She has you well trained and will inflict similar damage upon your DD if this continues.

I would no longer leave your child at all in the care of your mother and instead use a properly qualified babysitter instead. She is still a narcissist and cannot be at all trusted. Your child was injured in the course of her (non) care, she was likely too busy doing other things like chatting at the time. She did not even bother to clean your DDs arms.

Your sweet little innocent children are all too tempting targets for your narcissistic parent. Children, especially young ones, are trusting of grandmas and grandpas. They’ll listen to the lies your parent tells them about you. Lies about how terrible you’ve been to them. Your parent will weave tales about what a horrible child you were and how they gave you nothing but love while sacrificing their own welfare for you.

What he will do is turn your children against you.

But that is not all the danger. Children learn by watching and listening to the adults in their lives. Your child will learn from their narcissistic grandparent how to be manipulative, deceitful, and selfish.

And, unless you’re present every minute your parent is with your kids, you will not know it’s going on. (Also this can and does happen right in front of your eyes). Not until your children start to defy you and call you the same names your parents called you as a child, that is.

You should consider your parent to be a well of toxicity. Just as you would protect your children from a toxic spill, you should shelter them from your parent.

And you should feel no guilt. It’s purely good parenting.

You know your parent. They never do anything unless there’s something in it for them. So why, you may be wondering, do they want to spend time with your kids?

One reason—as detailed above—is to get at you. By manipulating your children, your parent can carry on the emotional abuse that he has pummelled you with all your life. What better abuse than to turn the children you love so much against you?

Young children who have been turned against you will not understand your efforts to rationalize with them about how grandpa lied to them. Grandpa already told the children that you would say he lied. You’ll be playing into his hand. Getting your children’s minds back could take a lot of time and effort.

There’s a second reason your parents are interested in your kids. Kids adore and love grandparents—even narcissistic ones. The love kids tend to have for grandparents makes them never ending sources of narcissistic supply.

Narcissistic supply is the attention, love, admiration, or even fear and hatred that non-narcissists show towards them. A narcissistic individual needs narcissistic supply to keep their false self in place. See here for more information on the false self.

Narcissists pick unwitting individuals to guzzle narcissistic supply from. Young children are wonderful sources of narcissistic supply. Ensuring a good source of narcissistic supply is the main reason narcissists have children. They are not looking to start a loving family. The love in their family will only flow from the children to the parent.

The narcissistic parent is like a vampire that keeps a victim on hand so he can draw blood from her each day. Similarly, narcissistic parents draw narcissistic supply from their children daily. With guilt, rage, and sudden, short-lived shows of kindness, they manipulate their children to show appreciation, love, or tearful apologies toward their narcissistic parent.

The narcissistic parent drinks this in and has their false sense of grandiosity, greatness, and admiration fortified.

This is what your parent wants your kids for.

Narcissistic grandparents often over value or under value the relationship they have with their grandchild. Infact they do not really interact with their grandchild at all; its like watching a rerun of a tv show you've always hated. She is being used here purely by your mother as narcissistic supply, your DD is too young to realise that she herself is being manipulated by her toxic grandmother.

I would suggest you read the website entitled Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers. Keep her well away from your child as of now.

Must be honest, I can't read the rest of the thread. Is that really bad? It's so overwhelming that I've spent all the time since my last post crying. I can't believe what people have been through especially as children :(

What I've managed to read so far has brought back so many sad/bad memories but it's also made me deeply upset for the posters too.

I hate being this soft! I really do. Sometimes I wish I couldn't feel happy or sad just to be sure I'd never feel sad.

Maybe I'll try again tomorrow.

Had a bit of a meltdown and it landed me back here - in a good way though it's hard to explain. Not important though.

Anyway, I decided to have a read of the first link in the OP - daughters of narcs - BLOWN AWAY already. Like, I am actually sitting at the screen, mouth wide open and the revelations are hitting me square on!

She's a bloody narcissist! And I'm doing all the things she 'trained' me to do!

Sorry for the random post, I'm just in disbelief that everything fits together.

Surreal.

Argh! Son has recurrent bladder infections as he needs to be circumcised (he has BXO). Being 11, with Aspergers syndrome, he finds the whole matter very embarrassing.

I had to tell my mother in the end and son spent 3 days in hospital last week with a nasty kidney infection.

Told her not to tell anyone. Told my sister the date of the operation. Had a cup of tea with mother and she said "sister says you've got to stop being secretive and silly about your sons' medical problems".

Demanded to know the date of the op (she drives me and siblings mad by writing all OUR appointments/holidsys etc on her calendar). I haven't told her but sister may have done.

tonight in sainsbury, met a friend of mother's that I've met once or twice- i didn't recognise her until she told me who she was. Then she said to son - are you better after your hospital stay? Son nearly crawled under the shelves! Turns out mother texted all her friends as soon as son went into hospital, for maximum drama. An elderly aunt of mine has also asked how he is!

Anything i should say or just par for the course?

Ah yes, and when my son was in hospital (he spent several hours in resus so pretty ill), i asked parents if they would visit and bring my other son in. I phoned a few times and my mother just kept repeating "when we have your say-so". Which they did!!

Sorry, pressed post, can't write properly from my phone.

Anyway, eventually they visited. Mum and my son came in, stopped 15 minutes. I was totally alone otherwise for 3 days and could barely leave son's room to get a sandwich. Mum didn't bring anything with her. Dad refused to park because of the charges so pulled in somewhere then circled the hospital before picking them up. :-/

Frith2013

That sounds like par for the course particularly if your mother is narcissistic in terms of personality. These people love any type of drama and make it all about them.

Could you consider going no contact; they do not deserve you and your son in your lives. You are both their whipping boy and scapegoat for their inherent ills.

Has anyone done the lightshouse toxicity test? I just did it cost me four quid and it was quite validating. Suppose it didn't fix my main issue which is looking for validation elsewhere and not trusting myself though.

Frith if you're not going NC I'd suggest seriously reconsidering how much you tell your mother. You need to protect your ds's feelings and she's just proven she can't be trusted.

forty hope you're feeling a bit better. You don't need to rtft at all, especially if it's going to upset you. It doesn't make you soft, just makes you a person who's been through shit and can empathise because of that. I'm glad you found some validation with that link

I'm a bit late to the thread but thought I could come here and get this off my chest.

Growing up I was the eldest and had Dsis. My mum favoured Dsis, gave her all the love, friends round after school etc. I got threatened a lot.

She had me by the throat up against a wall once for what I don't remember now but it would be some minor misdemeanour. Another time she kicked me and winded me because I couldn't find my gloves for a school trip and she also done that a second time because I dared to ask if I could go swimming. These all happened before the age of 12, my teens were mainly nasty things said to me.

The usual lines were trotted out of 'no one will believe you if you tell them' and 'I'll just say you're lying' and telling me that to say about bruising.

I've always had a Rocky relationship with her but when I found out I was having DS she just stopped talking to me after a phone call of abuse, all because I dared to have a baby at 25 with my OH. Bought her flowers for her birthday that same year thinking it might smooth things over and left them with a neutral person, she just said 'thanks but no thanks'

I will never treat my kids like that

I had to tell my mother because she had to look after my other son. I have no friends locally.

Toxic I'm glad the helpline put it like that, purely because it can be very validating to have someone call things what they are instead of pussyfooting around and excusing. I think asking if you were enabling isn't a very useful question, because it will just turn into a stick to beat yourself with. I don't know if you were or you weren't, but all of us - even the toxics - can only ever do as well as we can do. Better to look forward and say: right, this is what I know now, this is what is and isn't okay with me and this is what I will do. The fact is that growing up with toxic parents leaves you in this fog and it can take time to find your way out of it. And until you've been outside it, you don't know how different it looks when you're in it. It's okay to be kind to yourself; you are doing your best.

Moochy What an absolute nightmare. I will say this: do not be led by your daughter's feelings as she is a child and is programmed to love the adults around her. Regarding Alzheimer's or not, I would be contacting her GP and suggesting she be referred to a memory clinic, then leaving them to deal with it.

Forty You don't have to read anything! Flooding yourself isn't going to help; it's okay to just look for replies to your posts. Sometimes reading other people's experiences can unlock feelings about your own that you can have about other people and not yourself.

Gosh, you aren't soft at all. You're a human being. And it IS mindblowing when you realise, isn't it?

Frith Unfortunately I don't think saying something will get worthwhile results. I think a good rule of thumb is not to do anything that you can't control yourself, ie that depends on their reaction. I agree with pp who asked why you needed to tell her. I know it's painful, but it's a really good idea to start questioning these beliefs and think: why do I have to do that, who am I answering to, who is saying that in my head?

Misslgl I'm so sorry to hear about what you went through.

I am struggling to get work done right now as all this 'dealing with toxic parents' stuff takes up SO much bloody headspace.

all this 'dealing with toxic parents' stuff takes up SO much bloody headspace.

Sigh, isnt that the damn truth

moochy, frith I feel I've posted past your posts and may have come across uncaring or disinterested. Please don't take my not offering advice as either. Truth is, I just don't know what to say. This is all very new to me and I don't have any answers yet. Just wanted you both to know that I hope the support you find here from the ladies who know far more than I, lifts you up and gives you courage to move forward

Thanks everyone else for the lovely words. I feel much stronger and determined today thanks to all your help and reading the links here

I made a mistake last night which really tipped the balance too. M tried ringing me again just before midnight. Dh rang to say she had also tried his phone and then my brother rang to say she'd rang him to see if he's heard from me. I asked about her demeanor (he knows full well what she's like and feels about her as I do) and he said she was acting worried and never mentioned we'd argued. Talk about feeling hunted!
So ... my heart got the better of me and I worried she was worried so I decided to ring just to say we were okay. She answered with "yeah" in a really nasty tone so I said "you were ringing, is everything okay?".
"yeah" again so I just said "we're all okay" and she said "right, goodbye"

That was the final nail in the coffin for me! I'm so done. I know it will take time to process all the emotion and I can't say I'm ready for it but I do know that I'm not going backwards no matter how difficult going forward happens to be.

Hope you're all having a good day :)

forty be prepared for the 'flying monkeys' - people like your brother and such like coming to you saying how worried your mother is etc.

It can exert a lot of pressure as you've found out!

Everyone finds their own way of dealing with it, but stand fast. Keep using the broken record technique if you need to eg "Im sorry it puts you in a difficult position but I'm not dealing with the situation and game playing again".

Over time, you will come to know if going NC was the right decision. Most people get serious wobbles now and then but if it really was the right decision they find that after 1 - 3 years they feel a lot lighter, much less stressed and generally much much happier.

nconenc welcome

1. His own childhood may explain why he acted like he did but it doesn't make it ok. It can give understanding but it doesn't mean it was ok, at all. There's a big difference.

His way of parenting was very unhealthy, you know that yourself. It's normal to be angry at some stages when you're coming to terms with how bad things were. I'm not sure actually assigning blame always helps; I think it's a natural reaction to be angry and to go through phases of that and of sadness and other difficult emotions.

2. My mother defends his behaviour to the hilt Yes your mother is enabling.

Often the less strong personality of a pair gets ground down and ends up defending / enabling the aggressive person because it's the only way they can make sense of things. No one wants to feel they are going along with bad behaviour. So they end up with a warped, and sometimes rather frightened, tendancy to go along with the dominant person. People want to believe how close you all are becuase the alternative is to face how fragile and false the house of cards is that they live in.

The sexual inappropriateness sounds awful to be around. I mean, a casual kiss on the lips is one thing. But hands down pants and almost dry humping is quite something else. Ugh!

It's clear that you feel instinctively and powerfully that what happened was not normal and not right. You're being told something else, but you know that what went on was not right. Believe in yourself and your instincts, in this case.

nocnenc

Welcome.

Of course its okay to ask such questions here.

My answers to your numbered questions are as follows:-

1. No. There is no justification or excuse for what he has done to you; many people have childhoods which are not ideal at all and they actively choose not to repeat the cycle of abuse to their children.

1. DM is enabling him and they both get what they want out of this dysfunctional relationship. Also narcissistic women like your mother always but always need a willing enabler to help them. Your comment too re sexual inappropriate from your mother is not that unusual for narcissistic women either: I have seen others express similar re their own mother.

I sincerely hope you are no contact with either of them these days and if you are not you are working towards that goal.