"But we took you to Stately Homes!" Survivors of Dystfunctional Families

[Meerka]

It's May 2015, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
March 2015

Dec 14- March 15

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

I'd like to join in but am not sure if this thread is for anyone who has issues with their family and how they were parented, or just for people who are NC or want to go NC? I don't want to break contact with my family but I do have issues with some things that my siblings seem not to be bothered about and am finding it hard being the only one who sees things differently. Don't want to barge in if I'm an imposter though!

Lemonica

I think this thread is ideal for you actually, do feel free to post as and when you wish.

What's the issues with your siblings; have you felt that they have always been more favoured by your parents?. What role are you playing here within your family of origin (from the little that you have written you may have been assigned the scapegoat role).

Lemonica Your situation sounds like mine. Because of distance it is easy to go LC.

I have two siblings. One is the favourite child. The other can see this but doesn't have the same issues although I often wonder if this is because she does not have children.

You will find on here that no one judges and that it's not a competition so no one will say that your problems aren't bad enough to be on here.

And the other thing (unfortunately) is that it is going on a lot more that you thought.

I hope the thread helps. It has helped me as I now know that I am not the only one

Hi I'd like to join, my mother is a textbook narc. My life and the lives of my DS and DB have been blighted my her and still are.
My wonderful Dad was her enabler in that he would explain away her behaviour, she ruined his life.
He died a few years ago and if anything she's gotten worse, wringing every bit of sympathy out of his death, she treated him terribly but all her was worried about when he was sick was her. He asked us to look after her when he died, I'm not doing my bit and the guilt is killing me. I just can't bear to be near her these days.
I Dont have the energy to write about the relationship, but she's a horrible horrible aggressive, angry, manipulative person who never takes any responsibility for any of the train wrecks she's created.
I truely despise her but feel sooooo guilty at the same time.
I want to move abroad but my DH says this wouldn't help

Thanks everyone. Attila and Toxic I saw your posts earlier and my jerk reaction was to want to reply saying no, we had the same experiences and I just feel differently about them. But you've really got me thinking. Sorry if this is a stupid question but can scapegoating be quite subtle and insidious? I guess I imagined it to mean something quite extreme. I don't think it's as overt as in Friends but you may be onto something.

The issue that made me want to post on this thread is smacking, lots of it, by my DM. I have heard DSis say we were smacked when we needed it, it taught us to behave, it's no big deal, but I feel differently. I think it was excessive and humiliating and it did do me harm. Wooden spoon on palm of hand or bare bum, pulling pants down to smack me in front of other people (I don't recall the latter happening to my siblings but I always assumed it must have). And threats like "if you don't stop crying I am going to smack you". Theymakemefeellikeshit that's interesting about not having DC, my sis is in her late 20s and doesn't have any yet. I think I have been more bothered about this stuff since having my DD.

I don't want to post elsewhere on mumsnet and get the usual parade of people claiming it didn't do them any harm. I used to think DM was harsher on me because I'm the oldest (of three) and therefore the experiment, but I feel like she didn't like me very much when I was a kid. She's quite cold and subtly critical, and I think as a kid I spent a lot of time trying to get her approval because it was unpredictable and hard to get. I think I was materially provided for but not really emotionally supported or nurtured, although it's hard to explain why I think that. I don't think she's a horrible person but she's not been the mother I wish I would've had.

My dad and brother are very laid back. Supposedly the women in our family are more feisty. I love my dad but I feel like he used this bs about headstrong women as an excuse to stay out of things. I am actually quite close to my family now but the childhood stuff is bothering me and I'm not entirely sure why I can't just leave it in the past.

If there is a favourite it's DSis who is the baby of the family.

Lemonica Over 20 years ago since on announcing my pregnancy my mother told me that I was wasting my life and if she had her time again she wouldn't have children. Since then there has always been things that bothered my but it wasn't until recently after talking to someone who told me about her narc mother that it really dawned on me what was going on in my life which is when I started coming on this thread.

To be honest I have been finding it quite difficult (although I think that is because I am trying to deal with this as well as work stress)

We know who the favourite child is and now the DC know who the favourite grandchild is and guess what it's not them.

Toxic Re this: "But what people outside of my family of origin don't understand is that I'm not dealing with rational people here."

Who is it that's putting you under pressure aside from your sister? Sorry if you already said and I missed it. You are right: they don't realise. I think any advice I give will depend on who it is.

Poppet I'm so sorry to hear that you have been put in this position. I wonder if it would help to consider that looking after someone has many meanings? Personally I think you can take care of someone by refusing to tolerate awful behaviour and preventing them from abusing you. I think your DH is right actually, because you will feel FOG (fear, guilt, obligation) wherever you live. In AA they call this 'doing a geographic': moving to a new place in the hope that things will be better. If you feel FOG, it's going to come with you. And it might get worse as you'll potentially make yourself feel guilty for moving. You deserve to have an actual solution. Would it be possible to have some counselling?

One thing to realise is that dysfunctional families follow a script. Everyone has assigned roles. Your dad asked you to keep playing your role. If you resign from that role, you are no longer obliged to do anything you agreed to while in it (you aren't anyway, but you don't believe that yet). Think of it like quitting a job: you no longer have to do the projects you were assigned before you quit.

Your DF played a role too. He kept following it because he didn't know how not to. But his request was not a rational or reasonable one. Things change. If you promised to care for DM and you did and she tried to murder you, would you still hold yourself to the promise? It's not so different as her behaviour towards you is a form of soul murder.

Lemonica I'm glad you posted here. I know what you mean about the 'didn't do me any harm' brigade as people get incredibly defensive when asked to question the way in which they were parented.

"I think I was materially provided for but not really emotionally supported or nurtured." You have definitely come to the right thread. I'm sorry you are struggling with this right now. Have you read any of Alice Miller's books? I think you might find them helpful.

When we can't leave things in the past it is generally because we are traumatised by them and we first need to honour our feelings and work through things. It's bothering you because it is a big deal and the fact your sis feels differently absolutely does not invalidate how you feel. And it sounds like what you experienced was very shaming.

I find that Friends scene very painful to watch. My brother was/is in the golden child/hero role where he makes the family look good. I'm the scapegoat. It's a self-perpetuating thing, like a merry-go-round I was born onto. I was treated less well than my brother and I reacted and objected and acted out so I seemed to behave less well and round and round it went. In my family my job was to be in the wrong.

There was a thread recently about being the golden child. I am starting to feel really sorry for DBro as he's never going to escape and clear the FOG. Would I like to have had his parents? Nope, I'd rather be in another family altogether. He did get better care and support though. But it was just a lesser shade of shit really.

Buttons that makes so much sense, thank you much for posting that.
I live with FOG on a daily basis, I feel like it's going to kill me.
I just can't deal with her, my stomach is in knots at the very thought of her and the touch paper atmosphere she brings everywhere she goes. I feel the lifeblood drain from me when I have to visit her. It's getting worse.
I often wish it had been her instead of my lovely Dad, he could have gotten a few years of peace being the person he really was.

Poppet the way you feel - not wanting to be around her, wishing she was the one who went - is completely rational, reasonable and understandable.

I went NC because the FOG was affecting me similarly and it gave me space to clear my head. It is too late for your DF to get that peace but it is NOT too late for YOU to have it (or unreasonable to want it).

The fact she is related to you by blood does not mean you are required to suffer in this way. You are not able to look after her. It's a shame that you can't but it's not your doing that this is the case.

You don't have to visit her. You really really don't have to. You won't lie on your deathbed and wish you had spent more time with her.

I have posted on here before and coming back to check in really.

My mother has yet again made my DC birthday about her. We are very low contact and any opportunity she has she will point score with passive/aggressive behaviour.

Last year she came to the DC birthday party in our home, ignored DH and I (fine)..... Then as she left, said goodbye to everyone except us in a very dramatic fashion as way of punishment.

This year, she refused to come (again fine), as apparently she didn't feel welcome. She did this to create drama.

I then had the dancing monkeys (DF/DG), asking telling me to sort it out with her. How she wants to have a conversation with me, without DH there because he won't put up with her shit She's ill and apparently she talks about 'us' all the time.

This time I let the prancing monkeys know, really what I thought.

I said that I would not go to see her, so that she could give me a verbal bashing to make her feel that she had 'won'. I said that I had done this in the past and would not do this anymore. I also pointed out that I had called/emailed, but she took the opportunity to make horrible digs.

I said that her point scoring and verbal bashing effected my self esteem as I grew up; she did not do this with DSIS (the golden child), probably due to me being more sensitive.

I said that her their behaviour at a family celebration a few months back, demonstrated that they are ok for me to bare the brunt of her behaviour..DH and I had to sit in a specially devised table plan (sat next to DN who are teenagers), were ignored the whole evening and made to feel very unwelcome.

I don't think she's a narc, but definately has a personality disorder.

The guilt is hard, but this I can manage as fundamentaly I'm better. A better wife. A better mother.

Thanks for reading.

Phoenix did you post about the seating plan at the time? It's familiar although I don't remember if I saw it here or another thread.
Either way well done for doing absolutely the right thing to protect yourself and your family. Your post - especially the last couple of lines - is so strong, if you waver in the future please come back and read it again as reassurance.

love

I did post, although it may have been on the previous stately homes thread.

Hi everybody :)

I've been away for a couple of years due to MN addiction that needed to be broken!

I haven't been on the SH thread before but knew of it and, having posted today about a toxic mother and getting huge support I've decided to come join you. Hope that's okay.

I can't remember how to link my thread to give background but will figure it out soon I'm sure and post it.

For now if it's okay, I'm going to read through the thread to help build me up after deciding NC from today.

Chat sometime hopefully :)

Hi Forty, join away - glad you found your way to the thread. Here when you are ready.

Thanks Button :)

Going to see if I get the link right. If it doesn't work I'll write up a new background.

Think this is it...?

It worked, great! :)

Forty you are absolutely not a bitch or a bad mother. She sounds like my gran, I wish DM hadn't just pandered to her all the time.

Toxic, how utterly utterly draining they sound.