"But we took you to Stately Homes!" Survivors of Dystfunctional Families

[Meerka]

It's May 2015, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
March 2015

Dec 14- March 15

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Can I join?
I have been slowly realising that my 'D'M is a narc.
I was NC last year for a few months but gave in
She thinks she is mother of the year and needs constant adulation for this. Actually she is controlling and engulfing. She thinks criticism and control are helping
I will leave it there for now as thinking too much about this stuff is overwhelming.

Oh at the cat though. Mine would turn her nose up at me and raid the cupboard for the gourmet treats.
My family definitely view my demise as being alone with said cat

ofc you can join in butterfly. Sadly, the stately home is huge and there's far too many rooms in it, there's room for everyone!

Hello, been reading for a while, wanted to post as the DM now back in the country - lives abroad most of the year. Which means visit is now imminent - I've already started cleaning!! Wish I could relax about it all, but just can't. I'm a calm and fairly "sorted out" sort of person about pretty much everything else I do - just this one issue. Makes me anxious, stressed, can feel a bit panicky as I type this - what if she reads it!! Can't bear the criticism, false jollity, favouring of various grandchildren over others, hugely unhelpful comments. Bizarrely before I even found this I had managed to work out to go LC. Though feel the guilt when haven't phoned. Have learned to say NOTHING about anything - I occasionally slip up when in the midst of some sort of big "Thing" in my life, then immediately wished I'd kept my trap shut. No point to this post really, I'm just in an impending panic!

Good luck, Bluesnow. I hope the anxiety doesn't built too hight.

Hello to you butterfly and bluesnow

Bluesnow is your mum due to stay at yours? Or will she be staying in a hotel or with others? Maybe you can come up with some tactics now to minimise the time you have to spend with her?

Thanks for replying. No she wont stay with me, as my house is apparently too small (!) so I know she's in a hotel (somewhere near, I have no idea where) from Friday to Sunday. I've offered her a choice of 2 slots to see us, I know this is not what she wants, and inevitably she will then be late / need food / different food / not need food when I have made food, etc etc. I'm dreading it, have lined up the lovely in laws to help if they can (they know most of this) but if I do invite them too that causes extra issues as of course she would rather be here solo. Frankly feel like hiding in a cave until Monday. That though is feasibly not possible.
I've also got a couple of things to get through including not (for the first time in years) going to stay with them this summer, I decided partly from reading this thread that it makes me feel so awful why on earth would I, and the fact that we've booked a holiday during the summer that means we are away for 2.5 weeks. This will not go down well. Really I should have mentioned all these things ages ago, but head in the sand option seemed preferable. Feels v odd to be discussing this openly (even if anonymously) have always only had poor OH to go on at, he does his best but his family are so lovely and easy going that it's v hard for him to get his head around.

Blue it sounds like you've thought it all through and balanced things well so good luck. I can imagine it will be really hard to tell her about the summer but you're definitely doing the right thing and then you can look forward to your summer
I agree it feels weird to be talking about this all openly, I too only had dp until now and writing here has definitely made me realise the world isn't going to explode if I say things out loud. I'm glad you have lovely in laws. Hope it all goes okay

Hello, can I join please? I have been a lurker for a little bit.

I'm wondering whether I'm being silly. I'm 43. The scales fell from my eyes about my family's behaviour about a year ago and I'm full of fury and sadness about their behaviour when I was growing up, and since.

I keep thinking that maybe I'm being stupid though, and that I should just accept it and not stir up trouble?

Having read a little around the subject, I think that my mum is narcissistic and my dad is what is described as a bystander. My younger sister is the golden child and I'm the scapegoat, I think.

My mum has a vicious, spiteful tongue and when she lost her temper, when I was a child, would say things like, "you're not exactly over-burdened by friends, are you?", "everybody in school is laughing at you" and "isn't it time you made some friends?".

At other times, she'd be very solicitous and affectionate and call me "her precious child". I never knew which way she was going to be. She'd lose it over the most trivial things and launch into a vicious, screaming fit during which she'd savage me with cruel words, then sulk for days and be deliberately cold to me but warm to my sister. Naturally, I assumed that it was all my own fault, because she told me it was.

When I was upset she'd sometimes be very kind and understanding, but she'd save up the thing I was upset about and throw it back at me during the next savaging ("no wonder the girls in your class don't wait for you at lunchtime if you behave like this, I wouldn't either") and mock me for crying by pulling a distorted face and going, "oh, boo hoo!". So I never felt that I could really trust her.

My dad is very mild-mannered, and he loves me more than he loves anybody, i think, but he would just stand by and watch her. He never tried to protect me. I use to think that it was normal, and that he and my mum had some sort of agreement that he wouldn't countermand her, or something. However, I now find it really strange that he never helped me. I wouldn't allow my spouse to say such awful, spiteful hurtful things to a child, so I don't now why he did, either.

My mum was quite the martyr. Our washing machine broke down and she wouldn't replace it for four years, preferring to laboriously hand wash things, even bedding, in the sink, sighing throughout. We weren't poor; we could have afforded a new washing machine. At other times she'd insist on going to a launderette after finishing work then come in moaning about how tired she was and how much she did for the family.

I moved away from home after I finished university (when i lived away, so i was only home during the holidays). I visited them often, and still do. I used to dread going home for Christmas, because I knew that after the first few days when she'd be delighted to see me, she'd suddenly find a reason to start picking an argument with me. Which she'd always win by intimidating me. It would be something stupid, like I wasn't smiling enough, or I'd asked whether we could put the fire on, almost as if she'd stored up resentment against me that she couldn't wait to release. Cue vicious insults, sulking etc. My sister never got any of this, and she used to blame me for creating trouble and 'an atmosphere'. She and my mum always side with each other and my dad pretends that nothing is happening. I don't know why I put up with this for so long, but I thought I deserved it. It never occurred to me to stay away at Christmas, even though I had my own house from the age of 27.

I got married when I was 37, very happily, and my mum seemed to get worse from that point. She doesn't like my husband much, as if he deserves to be treated with contempt for having married me or something. I've found the strength over the past couple of years to move away from them; I no longer tell my mum much about my life and I do less for my sister, to whom I was always very generous with time and money despite knowing in my gut that she didn't like me much.

They think that I'm strange for withdrawing from them and my mum says goady things like, "I was telling Jean, everything I say, our Violetapple disagrees with. Everything I say!". I've tried to engage her in a discussion about her behaviour a few times over the past couple of years, including saying, "if you carry on behaving like this, the only thing you will achieve is driving me away", but it didn't stop her. Both my mum and my sister refuse to even discuss their own bad behaviour, or acknowledge that they might have behaved badly towards me. My mum even denies having said things; outright denies it, even though we both know that she's lying.

I'm so full of anger towards the three of them. I know now why I expect people not to like me, or to poke fun at me behind my back, or to be deliberately cruel.

Should I just try to let go of it? I rehearse things I would say to them f we ever had an open conversation, but they just won't entertain it. My mum is 82 and I'm still a bit scared of her.

I'm sorry that it's so long.

Hi violet. That sounds horrible. Parts of your story I could have written word for word and our mothers sound very similar. I'm sorry you had to go through someone treating you like that. I'll come back when I have a bit more time to type but I'm glad you posted and hope you feel a bit better for doing so. And in answer to your first question, I definitely don't think you're being silly

Thanks Loveheart.

Violet - only quick post from me too but bottom line is you're definitely not being silly!

Your mum and mine may have been to the same parenting class as parts of what you've written are so similar
To how mine has behaved over the years

It took me 40 years to realise her behaviour isn't 'normal'

We've now been NC for a month

Take care, and I hope posting has helped

Hi.

I don't think I've posted on one of these threads before. I might have done many months ago (I've certainly thought about it!) but found it too overwhelming. Largely because I don't feel in a position to support others as much as I feel I need some support at the moment.

I tend to just start my own thread when it all gets too much, but have often been redirected here.

I have to go to work now. But I thought that if I posted this, it would be a foot in the door and ensure I come back later.

Thank you

Oh and I've just read violet's post. Yep, I think your mother and mine were parenting from the same book

Mine too :)

I looked in on here because I'm feeling my unit is a bit dysfunctional right now. I have broken my ankle. We are about to move house. My DH is behaving like a complete dick because plans will have to change - it won't go as smoothly as he imagined, giving the impression I have basically fucked up and shouldn't have and have created a massive inconvenience.

Deep down I know this all stems from his own dysfunctional parents and cold mother who has massive issues about illness being a weakness and that he doesn't know how to deal with this sort of stuff. I know he will come round in a few days and all will be well but sometimes it's just dealing with the hangover of dysfunctionality. He gets it too because my mother was a classic narc so I have my little ways too.

Just hope my children never feel the need to post on anything like this.

Apologies for brief hijack just a bit pissed off right now.

That was meant to be a sad face. Sorry.

Hello all. I think it's interesting that the 40s seems to be the age when you finally realise that it's not "quite right" and that other people aren't scared of their mother's reactions.
Violet - I don't know if open conversation is worth it? I've thought about it with mine, but frankly can't see that it would get me anywhere, so I find it easier to grin and bear it.
I'm only this year, finally realising that I have to let go, try to not let it bother me. It needs to not matter what she says to me. (Of course it does matter, but I am trying hard to see that it's only her opinion.)
I think the anxiety created is very hard. I felt like I was going into melt down earlier in the week due to my mothers impending visit on Saturday. I still feel a bit sick, and it's already off to a bad start as apparently I'd said I'd be free Friday night (I didn't).
Sorry, not sure of much use, just really to say there seem to be a lot of us, and the "letting go" might be easier than the confrontation and to try and look at your friends and other half/kids as the barometer of the real you, if you are at all like me (you may not be - sorry!) you will not be your real self around your mother anyway, but a stressed and generally less happy person than you would be otherwise. You are definitely not being silly. Take care

thanks Somermummy, Folkgirl and BeaufortBelle. I can't tell you how reassuring it is to know that I'm not alone (and that I'm not pathetic for still being scared of my mum).

I was surprised that you all had such similar experiences. Although I thought that our family was normal for a long time, now that I realise that it wasn't I'm comforted to know that I wasn't the only one.

I don't think that my family will ever change, even if I did ever get them to talk openly (which they wouldn't). I think you are right, Bluesnowdog. It would just be even more grief and guilt ("all we have ever done is love you!", "Don't be so stupid", "I'd never say anything to deliberately upset you", "we're in our eighties, why can't you give your mother some leeway?", "my friends' daughters never behave like this")

violet I'm nc with my mother now. For many reasons.

I was fearful/anxious of her reactions to things, but not scared of her. But because she was so unpredictable and itrational that she said some awful things.

Not sure I can bring myself to put it all down anyway. There's jiust so much of it! Went nc 3 yrs ago. That's a lot of years of shit...

I'm at work at the moment, so can't say too much,

folkgirl that sounds awful. I hope you are doing better now.

Violet do you need to have much contact, can you limit what you do? I have found divulging no personal information (ammunition) to be a useful tactic. I do find I have to talk a lot about the weather and books though to maintain it. Can anyone help you when you do have contact. I have made other half promise to not leave me alone, or leave her alone with the kids, as that helps.

Hi Folk please don't be worried that you can't 'give back' at the moment. I think it was meerka (maybe ) who said to me when I first started posting that I would give back when I could so not to worry about that yet. That was really helpful, give yourself the benefit of the doubt, come and offload and either you'll have the energy to support others at another time or if not we're still all happy to listen.
violet you're definitely not alone, and tbh I'm still very scared of any confrontation with my mum and very intimidated by her. She just makes me shut down somehow. Fwiw with an open conversation, I REALLY really didn't want to go NC with my mum, for a number of reasons, most being fear obligation guilt, but also because when she's lovely, she's lovely and I want my mum! I genuinely did just want an open conversation. However, she shut down the idea of an open conversation so strongly and painfully and repeatedly that we're just NC anyway, purely because I stuck to my guns pursuing an 'open conversation'. I suppose what I'm saying is from your last post, you already acknowledge that they won't talk. You can try, but all paths probably lead to the same place. Also your being able to 'predict' what they'd say is another way of shutting you down - I do it too. You're probably right that they'd say those things but it's easier for parents like this if you can talk yourself through the argument before you even start.
So sorry this is so jumbled. I'm in the last minute of my break from work and can't really get what I'm trying to say down along with the right amount of empathy - but I really do empathise, I've been there too and it's horrible.

Hello sometimes lurker here. Story very similar to Violet too. I am SP living in mother's house though - it is owned by her but she lives elsewhere. When she visits, sometimes for weeks at a time, it is hell. I know I should move but don't want to destablise DC in terms of schools and friends right now. I have family support but partly they do not see the extent (butter wouldn't melt in her mouth normally) and partly don't know what to do. Recently they said we should NOT move out and just stick it out. It is really really really hard. Any advice hugely appreciated.

And yes, my penny dropped early 40s too ...

It was earlier for me - it was early 30s after I'd had children for a couple of years. There wasn't an epiphany or anything, though we unearthed a lot in counselling. I think that it was just after an amount of time of being a mother, I was thinking more often, 'How could he have felt this way about me, and still have done the things that he did?'

I couldn't imagine doing similar to my children - the love is too strong. I don't understand where he was coming from at all.

Violet, it's the other way around for me. Mum was the bystander, or at least, there was some stuff she protected us from, like when we were toddlers and refusing to sleep, standing in front of the bedroom door to keep him out. I was too little to remember that; my older brother remembers it.

More recently when we've talked, she's told me that she wishes she'd done more. She admits that a lot of our lives revolved around keeping Dad calm and happy. But we were kids; we shouldn't have had that responsibility.

Anyhow, it was good to hear that, even if it came late. It's one of the things that makes me a bit too LTB on here sometimes. I hear about destructive people and I think, no, save them now; don't regret not having saved them later.

Thank you meerka and pocket
My mum was actually offended earlier because my cat looked at her 'disdainfully'. [hmm