Anyone found the Dr J Gottman approach helped?

[Clarella]

I just wondered if it helped anyone to follow his methods?

When read this: relationshipresourcecenter.com/articles-concerning-relationships/relationship-articles/the-four-horsemen-of-the-apocalypse/

I can CLEARLY see where we go wrong, and always have. Not had dhs opinion on it yet (kinda both 'stonewalling' since last spat) but he's keen on counselling.

We've established its mostly communication issues. I've had awful debilitating health issues which haven't helped and he works long hours. Plus a very night clingy 2 year old. Plus DH is housework phobic if he can get away with it. Still a bit stuck in his young professional ways.

For a little while I questioned if he was a bit of a bully / ea but I feel he's had/ got mild depression and lashes out. And is often afflicted by the 'four horsemen' - well both of us are.

And it makes much more sense to me as he isn't ea, just been unable to get his head round quite a lot of very difficult stresses we've had over the last few years, particularly my health which at times has meant I rely on him to do more in the house - well basic stuff really. The house had to go to pot! So it's been extremely stressful, he's not good with illness and has a lot of anxieties about various things which I don't. Eg current 'worry' is our two year old now claiming he's a baby! Cue daddy disagreeing, disapproving and cue toddler hysterics from both!

On my part - I confuse the complaint and criticism from him. He can be critical but often its a complaint, but I react as if it's a criticism. And this then makes me feel low and angry.

Has anyone found it solved lots?

hi, i'm just marking my place as interested in this too. I have read most of the Gottmann book and identify a lot with it. My marriage is in real trouble so would be interested to hear if this book helped anyone out there .

Hi foresmewitove, sorry you're having a hard time. Is your husband receptive to the ideas in it?

I'm answering your OP from a slightly different angle, because I came across Gottman's work briefly for study, and thought it interesting.

However: back then I had not heard of EA, and did not understand the nature of domestic abuse.

These days, I still think the approach in the link is valuable: but the four horsemen,as he styles them, would ring loud alarm bells.

Contempt, for example, doesn't belong in any caring relationship, however annoyed you might be. I don't think there is any way back from true contempt. Repeated criticism, turning arguments round, and extensive stonewalling also shade quickly into EA.

So if there are minor difficulties between two essentially caring people, I'd absolutely give the ideas a go. If one thinks they're entitled to behave as they choose and all their aggression is justified, I'm not so sure.

TrackrBird is absolutely spot on especially with the final paragraph.

Also agree with TrackrBird.

Thank you trackr that's really helpful.

I've talked to a friend who clearly has been on the receiving end of ea. my DH differs in many areas and would never say some of the things hers has said eg "who'd want to enploy you? When she's been a sahm for 8 years."

I feel my DH wants to change, has quite rigid thinking about some things, not much clue about psychology or sprituality and wants to be both a patriarch and a teenager. He has slightly succumbed to 'the influenza virus' and very fixed ideas about child rearing apparently swallowed from Gina ford - but it's not, he's just built up an idea in his head from what he sees on TV etc. He listens to ideas he's built up in his head rather than looking at what's infront of him.

My parents have hit several nails on head in that - he has high expectations of everyone and himself (but then gets disappointed). He's found it difficult to deal with the realities of a baby plus my illness, and lacks security in my child centred approaches to child rearing as its not how he was brought up.

He's also admitted he didn't trust me postnatally when I was becoming ill with thyroid issues but clung on to breadtfeeding and cosleeping to cope - he thought I was 'unhinged' as I'd had anxiety during pregnancy. I've seen a temper I wasn't keen on - but I've seen a very scared and angry boy too, just not understanding or coping with stuff. He's been irritable - but I'm irritable when I've been depressed.

He says he hates the fact he says stuff and I cry - he tries to try different tacts which upset me more. For a while he fully believed that his opinions were true and I was stubborn for not agreeing, till I worked out that I needed to be more assertive and say "that is your opinion, it's not fact. I have a different opinion."

Honestly, at times, I think he just isn't bright enough or too exhausted by work to know what he's saying. And he reverts to toddler tantrums.

I'm not blameless though which is why I found the Gottman stuff interesting. If he understood why certain tacts he takes aren't helpful (eg he things avoiding an issue - stonewalling, though he doesn't understand it like that, is valid and indeed sensible as then there's no argument, to give people a chance to calm down. what he doesn't get is how I feel then completely ignored and left with a load of painful unresolved shit.)

I'm not getting from the book that contempt is ok in the relationship?

I feel we've both shown contempt. I became so hurt by some things I felt I had to distance myself from loving feelings in order to cope but probably bred contempt. I have found it difficult to like him when drunk or hung over. But he likes to go out, he doesn't have any other real hobbies or passions. It's how he unwinds - he's very sociable. Plus his work is in an area where they often go to the pub or out.

TBH it sounds more like he has something else going on to me, almost like possibly being on the ASD spectrum? I am really loathe to suggest this TBH as it's often trotted out as a lazy excuse to cover bad behaviour on this board but firstly I don't think that ASD makes people into shits (it just doesn't) - it's the little things you've written about not understanding, having a rigid idea of what is right which doesn't take into account the actual situation in front of him, and finding it difficult to cope with a situation which is unpredictable or undefined (illness, child centred parenting when compared to routine + rulebook based parenting).

Or the other alarm bells it is ringing is almost narcissistic stuff - just the impossibly high expectations and being a bit aloof/not really aware of real world stuff but almost living in his own head - but he doesn't sound as nasty as your average suspected narc.

Ha I teach ASD children. No it's just growing up a part of 3 boys, son of prison warden and both very religious baptists though accepting of the fact he's not religious. I just don't think there's much to replace it for him iykwim? He's traditional in the sense of his very stable, simple background but doesn't want exactly the same.

The high standards - it's more the 'affluenza' thing - he is an architect, set up his own successful business with a friend (who he was at uni with so easy to regress!) obviously sees and works for people who have lovely houses etc. He's had pictures in his head of what he wanted to achieve his whole life, found each bit quite easy and matches his vision, but was not prepared for a clingy, regularly wakes, breastfed baby! Oh and his brothers baby sleeps.....

I however work with children who seen utter deprivation and/ or never fit any model or follow any plan I set! So I go with instincts.

There is a leetle ASD in his family though. I look at a father who chose prison work and was very religious :/

Yep fair enough - sometimes these things just come together through chance :)

I think your original post must have autocorrected "affluenza" - I'm not familiar with the term but can guess the meaning, but was wondering what the flu had to do with anything!

Yes I think it did :)

There was a book written on it. Effectively feeling like you have to keep up with the joneses.

I do think it's unhelpful to go down the AE route until he's had a chance to realise or with through some things. Plus I know I've been pretty nasty back when feeling like he's been unfair or will not listen to my point of view. This is where understanding some of the types of reaction and how they affect one another could help. I know I'm just as guilty of a lot of it.

I'm very aware of his nonverbal stuff sometimes, - esp showing a type of contempt (not exactly that) which he doesn't realise he does, maybe im extra sensitive to it, but the hostile humour bit I recognise quite a bit.

He's freely admitted to being a bit of a bully / teasing other children at school, he also picked on his younger brother till he got old enough and bigger than him. He's admitted that often and feels bad about it. No sisters. So I feel his default arguing mode is linked to his childhood. Not much emotional intelligence basically.

Oh dear. He doesn't sound very nice... why are you with him again?

Um, OP, I really hope I'm wrong here, but I'm getting the feeling from your posts that some of the terms you're using are essentially masking the more problematic aspects of his behaviour. I translated some of them in my mind while reading: "succumbed to the affluenza virus" = materialistic, "lacks security in my child centred approaches" = does not respect or support your choices; "wants to be both a patriarch and a teenager" = sexist and immature; "Not much emotional intelligence"= cold and uncaring. And I always get a sinking feeling when women describe their male partners as a "scared and angry boy". You say he isn't emotionally abusive and obviously I can't judge that, but the only reason you've given is that he isn't as bad as your friend's ea DP. Personally, I'd second Top's "not very nice"

You spend a lot of time thinking about what he says what he thinks how he behaves how things affect him what problems he has to overcome don't you ?

blah blah blah

What about what you think ?

I don't know. Sometimes I do wonder. He wants us to be happy together.

But I feel I don't know how to get across small attitudes which actually aren't too nice. I sort of feel we can be happy if I don't make a fuss!

It's affecting our son, 2, who heard us arguing this morning - he said "what's going on? Stop it!" I think we managed to get through it.

He often doesn't get why some things he says and does are upsetting. These things are a bit down putty and disrespecting.

The thing is at my absolute worst ever I was so upset at something he said about me I did spit at him with myself. I felt extreme disgust and couldn't believe what he was saying. So I'm no good either

I think a lot of it is learning to be assertive on both our sides. If he feels something he isn't very good at just saying it. So it spirals.

He keeps saying he knows he's a good person and not a monster and not the things I say he is - I'm at a loss as to how to communicate when I feel he's been unfair or mean.

I did hit on - you wouldn't say that infront of your parents (which he wouldn't) so why say it to me? This does seem to stop him.

When things are good they can be very good.

It doesn't help that I've had mh issues. I'm unsure if some of it was a bad patch we went through. When we had an argument id end up having a panic attack. I'm sure it was to do with not being heard properly. This got worse till I'd have one just coming home. This is in the past though.

I do think he wants to change.

It doesn't help we've ended up sleeping separately for a variety of reasons. Lo is coming in any time from 12 till 4. He can't sleep hearing lo, I often wake him up. I've also had lots of illness and he needs his sleep. However he stays up late watching TV and finds it hard to go to sleep. I need to go to sleep around 9 at the mo. I suggested lying together earlier on, cuddling etc. I suggested during Los nap times. I suggested getting a bigger bed.

Oh gawd we needs lots of therapy!!!

MNHQ. Please delete my thread, thank you.

Thankyou for your thoughts posters, I think I'm getting into things which I doubt are fully the truth. I worry I am getting dragged into suspicion about things when it's quite deep personal things mixed with petty things both of us are aggrieved about. I think he's handled things badly since our son was born but I also think he's been depressed. Yes he couldn't respect my babying choices, and was shocked at how much some babies wake, believed it was something we could 'fix' but has learnt to respect my choices and what my views, so it's still work in progress. I haven't a clue how to delete a thread but posting this for now!

Hi OP, click report and ask MNHQ to delete your thread (not sure why, but that's up to you).
Does your DH do any of this agonizing about your needs and feelings? At all?
"I sort of feel we can be happy if I don't make a fuss!" This is bad, OP. And it's affecting your son.

You can't delete threads. You can message MNHQ but they don't always do it. I think I am with others, you're doing a lot of explaining, teaching, fixin? You say he wants toc change, but he's not being really proactive at all, is he? What books has he read, (and how many of those did he pick up himself?) what websites has he sought out, what counselling has he looked into, couple or single. Or is he just going along with you?

I understand if you want to hide the thread and leave it for now. We'll be here any time you want to talk, in anycase.

And BTW - not one of us is judging. Most of us have been there. Asking the hard questions, pointing out the patterns in your posts - it's for you personally to reflect on, we don't expect or need a reply, we are not gleefully cackling away running a pool on which thread starter will break up first. I would imagine that most if not all of us dearly wish we could have a magic wand to wave and suddenly you'd both understand each other and your relationship would work perfectly. It is hard to ask these questions, it is hard to question whether the relationship is feasible. But it's all part of a bigger question which is something like can you be happy in the situation you are in?

Good luck, anyway. I hope things work out for you.

Thanks Bertie.

A few things have happened - one of which is I took some advice from the book. I was able to turn a situation around that meant I was able to prove to him I do listen etc and I do empathise- I just don't agree. We were able to go away for a night and leave ds with my parents. My mum didn't get much of the bed but it was fine! Consequently this has strengthened things and I've felt more back.

I guess - as many women say- me often do need that modelling etc. Or is it mothering?! Either way, generally 5 years behind the women.

He clearly has no idea what counselling involves either! I know he wants to. I can't take that and my own counselling at the moment, and facing a return to work when I'm not sure I'm ready. So I'm hoping he'll engage in the book a little.

He has clear anxieties about a lot to do with ds, worrying about little things like ds saying he's a baby (not even 2.5 yet), still having bm (I have found I so much easier to manage ds when I was weaker. I researched if it could hinder getting well. My experience was it was helpful day to day. DH has worried about bm affecting height and weight since he started weaning - wasn't too into food and he blamed me/ accused me of hindering our sons development) (no height or weight issues, follows line exactly, DH thought/ hoped he would be taller)

We do need to do counselling to go over some of all this. He thought some of his actions and attitudes were reasonable.

I've worked out in my head why as a mother I get the right to make some decisions at this age and stage. Especially if I'm to work too.

But the book has given be pointers to spot why I get upset (criticism - he thinks it's absolutely fine to call me stubborn when I don't agree) and how to mirror him, and how to sooth him and how to sooth myself.

It really is giving me strategies a bit like CBT to guide our (stupid inconsequential) arguments to reasonable dimensions.

And as I'm getting better it's generally all better for him too. I think he found the responsibility of feeling like my carer too much to bare, with our son there too.