BDSM/abuse situation around an affair - help me help my friend!

[shovetheholly]

This is a post asking for help in dealing with the breakdown of a friend's marriage. I posted about it yesterday, but got no replies . I am struggling to know what to say and could really use some help. (I also want to emphasize that this is not one of those 'about my friends' posts that is actually about me! I'm pretty open about my issues on here, and I swear this is genuinely about helping a friend!)

Basically, my friend who has been married for nearly 20 years found out her husband has been sleeping with all kinds of other people - so-called friends, prostitutes, anyone who offers, the works. He is basically following The Script line for line: (www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/a1527705-Midlife-crisis-this-is-the-script)

She is very hurt, obviously. However, their relationship is BDSM, so she is inclined to see this in terms of that dynamic, instead of as abuse. I do not know what to do or say about this. There seems to be some strange, subcultural thing about BDSM, where proponents of the lifestyle believe they are superior in adventurousness and insight to what they term 'vanilla' relationships. The model of personal identity seems to be very strong even if it is rather simplified, like that of teenagers ('I'm a goth! You're a plastic!')

So while on the one hand, she is devastated, on the other she is almost seeing this as confirmation of their unusualness and of her role as the submissive. I believe that the second perspective comes largely from him and is part of a highly abusive situation in which she is being manipulated in all kinds of ways that she hasn't consented to. (As a feminist, I am struggling to deal with the whole consenting-to-submission thing anyway, but this goes way beyond that - he's manipulating her in ways she hasn't consented to).

I am frustrated by this and I do not know what to say (or even if there is anything I can say) to help break her out of this way of thinking! HELP!

It sounds as if your friend needs to work on her self-esteem and counselling would be a good place to start. She also needs to get checked for STIs.

If she's only just found out about the other people he's been having sex with, then perhaps you can discuss with her whether she's happy for him to continue to sleep with her and others at the same time, the fact that she's putting herself at risk and the damage that this will do to her confidence generally.

There are support services, books etc available to her of course, but she has to acknowledge that she needs them.

She's very lucky to have you supporting her - keep holding her hand through this. It sounds as though she'll need a lot of help.

Thanks whattodo. I just want to scream 'RUN FOR THE HILLS!' at her, but coming over all feminist and assertive is not working since she identifies as a submissive. I don't know how to 'break in' to her way of thinking and question it in a way that will connect.

She has been to the clinic to get checked for STIs once, but needs to go again since the infidelity is very current.

He may be dominant in bed and she obviously consents to that.

He may also be dominant in their general lifestyle, e.g. he tells her when she's allowed to go out, how to dress, what to cook, etc etc... This set up is unusual even within the BDSM community but there are people who find it satisfying. It's usually called "Lifestyle D/s" I think. (Personally it makes me want to hurl.)

However a "proper" BDSM relationship is based on negotiated consent for all acts. Him just deciding he's going to go off and bang loads of other people should not have just been sprung on her as a fait accompli.

Lots of kinksters are also poly, but that needs to be agreed and negotiated in advance.

The fact you said she "found out" he has been doing this seems to indicate he's been keeping it secret, which doesn't fit the BDSM or the poly scene at ALL.

Does she have any contact with the BDSM community? Is she going to munches, etc? Is she on Fetlife? Being around other kinksters who are in stable, consenting relationships acts as a kind of reality check.

I have a suspicion from what you describe that the husband is a bit of a One True Way type.

The major ground rule of BDSM is that it should be safe, sane and consensual. It doesn't sound like this relationship is meeting those (very basic) standards.

Well, she seems to think that letting one person have all the power is ok?
But someone in power eventually abuses that power - as she has found out.
she can paint is as a sub-culture identification but basically he is selfish and believes he deserves sex with anyone and she is just one in a long line - but she also gets to do his laundry as well, so gets less out of the relationship than his causal sex partners.

She has handed him power and he has abused it - why is she surprised? He is manipulating hte situation so he gets all the fun and she gets a bit of him sexually when he hasn't anyone else and all the housework. Voluntary slavery really on her part.
What positives does she get here?
However, if she is conditioned to be totally submissive in all things then there isn't a lot you can do, she may crave being a victim as it's easier than asserting herself - she may be scared to actually acknowledge she has any feelings.
Finding out he has random sex all over the place may be the first time she has ever questioned the relationship dynamic - she will find it hard as she seems to think he would be monogamous - why? Men with high power needs and high self exteem think they are entitled to many sex partners - the two things go hand in hand as has been shown many times.
She has been given a role - does she want to fulfill this role without question? Does this role make her happy?

She may not be able to cope with how she is being used, but the main issue she currently has is - there were implicit terms within their relationship (him dominant, her submissive but she also assumed monogamy) now she sees he didn't think monogamy was part of the deal, is this the angle to talk to her about? Or is that she was lied to? Or that he clearly thinks her feelings are worth nothing?

This is a difficult one that even psychologists are currently not agreed on - when there is a clear abuse dynamic but the victim is colluding with the abuse and even encouraging it...is this then true abuse.
She has given the power in the relationship to him - how far does that powerlessness extend? How little will she have to matter to him before she realises being submissive involves basically not being acknowledged as a human with feelings? What is important to her?

There are so called 'kink positive' counsellors who may be able to help her make sense of things. You could try suggesting that.

pocket - I have no idea about munches. I do not even know what that is! vanilla bemusement

Yes, it is definitely a lifestyle for them. Both of them talk about people who keep it sexual dismissively, as 'bedroom BDSM'. She has clearly been brought to believe that living a life of submission is more true to the BDSM ideal, and more 'enlightened'. I find this profoundly depressing.

I suppose what I am asking is:how on earth do I connect with her in a way that she will listen to? It is genuinely like speaking to someone in a cult! I could do with advice on this.

Yes, they got married and the marriage was very strongly based on a monagamous model. He tried for poly, but she wasn't having any of it (and good on her). I think he has basically presented her with it as a fait accompli, and I am scared she is going to go along with it for fear of losing him.

miggsie - thank you for your post. The trouble is, I think the BDSM lifestyle cult model gives her an easy template into which to slot his behaviour, so rather than really questioning it, it offers her a way of accepting the abuse He shows clear narcissistic traits in my opinion. I also think that part of the trouble is that he's actually very weak as a person in some ways - like a lot of narcissists he is very reliant on the estimations of others - so therefore the dom thing is very much a front rather than a reality.

Perhaps asking about her happiness/wellbeing is a good way forward?

Ehric - how do you find out if a counsellor is 'kink positive'?

Just because BDSM's involved, and she's submissive, he's still been having sex with people behind her back. Unless they'd agreed an open relationship? From reading your post, it doesn't seem that way. In that case, he's still cheating. And feeding her some bullshit line about him being Dominant Master Who Must Be Obeyed, so I have the right to shag others and put your health at risk. He sounds like an abusive arse tbh.

How did your friend find out? Was he honest and upfront, or did she find it out by herself?

I second the STI check. Regular ones for them both if he's got her so under the thumb that she'll accept him shagging other people.

Also agree with counselling, around self esteem issues, looking at why she finds it acceptable this man deciding (without discussion apparently) to dictate the new rules of their marriage re. fidelity.

LOL, a munch is just like a meet-up, usually at a pub or coffee bar, for kinksters to meet and mingle with other people "on the scene". Usually it's just a social occasion but there are also "Play Munches" where there's both socialising and some people may pair up (or threesome up or whatever) and do a scene.

I have no idea why it's called "munch"!

Yes, they got married and the marriage was very strongly based on a monagamous model. He tried for poly, but she wasn't having any of it (and good on her). I think he has basically presented her with it as a fait accompli, and I am scared she is going to go along with it for fear of losing him.

OK, in that sense, is it much different to a typical arrogant non-kinky man who's been catting about for years and saying he's not going to stop and if his wife doesn't like it she can shove it?

Your friend may be rationalising his infidelity as "but he's my master so I must accept his behaviour". Other women might tell themselves "Well he's a good dad so I'm just going to pretend I don't know" or "He's a good provider though and I'm worried he'd stitch me up financially so I'm going to put up with it."

I suppose the point I'm making is not to get hung up on the BDSM thing, just go right back to basics. Is the marriage making her happy? Can she accept what her husband is doing? If not, what is she going to do in order to change things?

I think there isnt anything you can say, but im not sure why she is talking to you about it, she would be better talking to other people in the lifestyle.
As long as she is aware that just because she has this dynamic, she can withdraw her consent at any time. Suggest they talk and renegotiate their boundaries. Remind her that being a dom and sub doesnt mean her needs as a sub are unimportant. Remind her of safety

pocket - absolutely. I don't think this is ANY different to ANY other man who wants to have his cake and eat a bit of it on the side as well. He has cheated. The agreement between them was monogamy, and he lied and lied. He has fessed up only to the things that he thought she might find out about (sleeping with one of her friends) and not to anything that he thinks is hidden (she went through his emails and found messages booking sessions with prostitutes).

The problem is how to break down a rationalisation which places her as submissive, which she is using to say that she should just put up with this! (I am far from sure that others in the BDSM community would agree. It sounds quite rule-based, and he has broken the rules of their agreement. But I also wonder whether being submissive can become habitual in ways that this community doesn't acknowledge, thus opening the way to abuse).

Branleuse - I, too, have wondered why she's talking to me about this. I wonder if it's because she does know my feminist views, and is actually seeking that perspective at some level? That is part of the reason I do not understand how to react.

rubbish - I agree 100% with that!

I think you've hit the nail on the head there Holly -"the agreement between them was monogamy." Then he decided to sneakily change the rules. Without telling her. Does he even see her as a thinking, feeling human being?

He's cheated, plain and simple. Numerous times. Been found out. And rather than being contrite, he's being a cunt. He dictates she must accept his behaviour. Has he said he's going to stop shagging other people even? (Whether he stopped or not would be immaterial to me. I'd be legging it to the nearest hill)

How dare he be so entitled to treat her like that!

Freedom Programme for your friend maybe?

I think maybe ask her what she wants from you when she is telling you all this stuff?

If monogamy is something previously agreed/ negotiated on and hes just changed that without discussing it with her, then he is not cherishing or respecting her as his sub, and meeting her submissive needs. He is abusing her trust. She might think shes a special flower and they have some amazing passionate that other squares just don't get, but theres a fuckload of people in the world that very much enjoy bdsm and if they want to do it full time then it is NOT easy, they are both going to need to work hard to not be a total headfuck and actually dangerous to each other. The relationships like this that work are the ones where either of them can stop at any time and its actually ok.

Rubbishmantra I think he is entirely selfish and sees only what he wants. They are at the phase where he repeatedly threatens to leave, and instead of letting him go, she's fighting for him. She even sees it as a victory that he 'picked her' (i.e. came back to her) after shagging these other people - even though he's made it clear that he's not going to stop.

I think in his mind provided that he tells her he's having second thoughts, it's all okay. He clearly doesn't have the strength to leave, and I suspect is a bit emotionally reliant on the idea of her as a backup plan, in case other relationships don't work out. (Some dominant type, huh?) So I think what he's doing is saying 'This is how I am going to be, and you can shut up or leave' - basically throwing the decision onto her. And instead of leaving or seeing him as weak, she's thinking he's all sexy and dominant.

The question isn't so much 'is this wrong' as 'how do I get through to her that it's wrong'?

I'm googling the freedom programme

I don't know much about lifestyle D/s. (I'm not even in the kink community, but a relative is and talks to me about it a lot, so I suppose you'd call me an informed observer!)

But yes my view is that although it's a valid choice for some people and if they choose to consent to it then fine, but it does leave the door open for a potentially abusive person to use that lifestyle as a kind of channel for abuse. It doesn't meant that all those relationships are abusive, but it can be used to cover up and normalise abuse, if you see what I mean.

Any relationship should be positive and satisfying for both parties. Both of them need to be getting something out of it. It's not about the dominant getting everything they want and the submissive not getting anything. If anything, from my observations the sub often gets more out of it than the dom...

The fact that she's talking to you would seem to indicate that she's got her doubts, even if she's trying to tell herself it's okay.

I really think it would benefit her to speak to people in the kink community.

pocket - I wouldn't listen to most people who said that she should speak to those who advocate submission, but I trust your advice so much. Can you recommend a site where she can post and get the views of others in this lifestyle on what has happened? Maybe if she hears from BDSM people that this isn't normal it will help?

I slightly think that there is a kind of subculture identity that is 'oh, we're so far out there and unusual'. And I am possibly in danger of becoming 'another vanilla who doesn't get it' to her. And that would be true, though I happen to think that empowered feminism is a lot more radical and far out than submission!

the whole community is fucking rife with abusive wankers who just want to find a poor girl with daddy issues who will do anything to please. Those girls are chewed up and spat out. There are however many people who do it all properly and consensually, but it aint all of them. I feel sorry for your friend. I think the way to go is not dismissing her wish to be submissive. It will be letting her know that its him thats abusing his privilege that she has honourably given him. Talk to her about even if she needs that dynamic in a relationship, then thats fine, but maybe not with an abusive cunt

"'how do I get through to her that it's wrong'?"

God, I wish I knew the answer to that Holly.

Does she have children? You could ask how would she feel about a child of her's in such a distressing relationship? But not in an accusatory way, obviously. Help your friend to look at the situation from a different viewpoint.

Also, if there are children involved, what are they learning about relationships? I think you need to be really gentle. (which I'm sure you will be) Don't want her to just nod, smile and agree with you to "people please"(which I'm sure she's got very good at doing with H) or scare her away, because H thinks you're a "bad influence'.

Some in the BDSM community talk about pushing boundaries as being good, and I suspect if she said anything to him about consent around having sex with others, he would take this line.
You say it is like talking to someone in a cult. Don't use the framework of the cult i.e. BDSM to talk to her. Instead talk to her about is she happy in the relationship, that her needs are important too, that she deserves to be happy. The fact she is telling you this suggests she wants you to be critical.

There is nothing you can say to make her wake up. I think him being unfaithful is what you should deal with. Him hiding that behind a cloak of the lifestyle he is living is a form of abuse and that is clouding her judgement.

I think she should speak to Women's Aid and do the Freedom Programme - you can't force her to do anything sadly. I would agree with counselling for her self esteem, sti testing too. He sounds hateful and I hope she finds the strength to kick him to the kerb.

shove i think the best bet may be to try to find a Dom or Domme who acts with integrity.

In the lifestyle the best ones are highly respectful of each other's limits. This man is not doing that, he's completely overriding his promises and he's being a shit.

I think that arranging for her to meet a proper Dom/me on the quiet might be a way to get through to her. If he/she could reassure her that her upset is absolutely justified and that there are much better ways of living the BDSM lifestyle, maybe that will give her some strength.

How to do that? ouf. There are a few people with direct or sidelines experience of BDSM on this site or ... well actually Im not sure where else to start looking but maybe find some BDSM forums close to your own area, observe the forums a while and then contact someone you think sensible and grounded.

From the bits I know of that community, people who do it 'right' seem happy. Fulfilled. it isn't most people's cuppa tea but it is theirs. Your friend doesn't sound happy at all. Maybe not in that lifestyle with THIS particular man, and certainly not as fundamental promises have been broken. BDSM isn't about shitting on people.

Abuse in the BDSM community is very common.

"As I reflected on the number of times I’ve had fingers in my cunt that I hadn’t consented to, or been pressured into a situation where saying “no” was either not respected or not an option, or said that I did not want a certain kind of toy used on me which was then used, I’m kind of horrified. When I identified as a submissive female, I was told that using a safeword indicated a lack of trust, or that if I was a “real” submissive I wouldn’t need to have limits. I had a guy drive me home from a munch who refused to leave my house, insisted on sleeping over, and then wouldn’t sleep until I gave him a hand job. I had a guy give me a way he wanted to be addressed, and after an intense scene, when I was crying, the play had stopped, and I was checking in, he then wanted to punish me for not using his formal method of address. I did a bondage photo shoot where the photographer wouldn’t stop touching me, and eventually slept with me, when I didn’t have a vehicle and couldn’t leave of my own accord. I took up the offer for a massage and ended up realizing the price for that massage was allowing him to play with me. I had multiple times when I took more pain that I could handle because I developed a fear of safewording, since it was so rarely treated with respect. And that’s just a sample."

[Warning from MNHQ - not safe for work]
kittystryker.com/2011/07/safeward-i-never-called-it-rape/

I dont think that should be linked to Lucy.