My DH is estranged from his mother

[ruthboros]

My DH has been estranged from his mother for many years. I have asked many times the source of the rift and never received a satisfactory answer, just along the lines that she was very manipulative and wanted to force him to stay in his home town in Ireland - when he wanted to go to Uni in the UK, which he did, and then moved to London where he has been ever since.
Their relationship has not totally broken down but is minimal, just one visit staying with her a year, plus Mothers Day Cards, birthday cards, the odd letter (she is deaf so cannot talk on the phone). He is now 61 and retired, she is in her late eighties and it looks as though the end is near.
I have never been happy with the situation as I think it is tremendously sad for both of them, but I have never interfered. I have always made clear I will support him in his relations with family. It is not fun going over there, for various reasons but I have always done it with him.
At Christmas, we went to Ireland and a big row blew up between DH and brother-in-law, who is insufferable but DH went well over the top, and called him a stupid little sH**. I was shocked and very upset at DH's behaviour, which seemed to come out of nowhere.
This weekend DH said he is asking my permission never to see his mother or family again, out of the blue. I said it is not up to me to give permission, he must do what he thinks is right, but that I think it is absolutely shocking behaviour to sever even the minimal contact he has with her. I told him flatly I cannot approve of what he is proposing, and I don't think he could find anyone who would think this is an acceptable way for a son to treat his mother. I asked whether there was abuse or maltreatment in his childhood and he just yelled 'why does everyone ask me that?'
He became screamingly angry with me and began accusing me of being disloyal. He said he no longer wants me to accompany him on visits to his mother in Ireland and that when he does go and see her he will fly out in the morning and back in the afternoon. (I did note this contradicts his saying he did not want to see her again ever)
I have a very good relationship with my own mother and cannot imagine what is going on here. I am having a hard time understanding what is happening here. So now for the past 2 days he is hardly speaking to me and I am wondering WTF.....This may be a total one off but any thoughts appreciated....thank you
PS we've been married 20 years. I thought DH's relationship with MiL was pretty bad, but not this bad.....

Your H sounds very confused and he is obviously hurting a lot.

I know it must feel hurtful for you that he can't open up to you about his reasons for the rift, but those are his reasons and if he wants to keep them secret, that is his right.

I think there is probably a long history of quite serious abuse which he has tried to bury, unsuccessfully, for many years.

Unfortunately when you told him that you could not approve of what he was proposing, you kind of shut the door on him opening up to you.

At this point I think you just have to step back, and let him do his own thing. I know it's hard for people with "normal" parents to understand how much damage an abusive one can do.

You should support his decision IMO. His mother may not have long left but it's his call to make and he knows a lot more about her than you do. Also saying you don't approve is less than supportive. Asking if he is sure that's the road he wants to take is one thing but saying you don't approve must make him feel pretty lonely

Thank you. Listening to you I realise I should not have said I don't approve, I didn't see it that way before. He is so hurt and upset now, I will apologise to him massively tonight when I go home and try to make clear how much I love him.

He must have shocked you with his behaviour towards his BIL but there is no way of knowing the ins and outs and whyfores, so you have to forgive him and trust him.

It must be quite stressful if his mother is unwell etc. Probably more so if there is a rift and unresolved issues. It must take a lot to keep the relationship at this minimal level, rather than totally ignoring.

Hope things go well for you this evening.

You might find out what it was all about when things are less stressful, eventually.

That she is manipulative is enough of a reason, imo, to go nc, or low contact. That should be enough for you. I am nc with my own mother and would be very unimpressed if my husband pushed me to even minimal contact with her. If you had normal, loving, supportive parents, it can be hard to understand how freeing it is to cut contact from parents who are not so.

"I told him flatly I cannot approve of what he is proposing, and I don't think he could find anyone who would think this is an acceptable way for a son to treat his mother"

That was certainly not the thing to say to him and you do need (and I see that you will) apologise to him later on.

Ultimately you need to follow his lead on this matter, he has known his mother far longer than you have and also grew up with her. TBH the blow up with your BIL was not altogether unexpected; that has probably been brewing many years too and it is likely that your DH simply reached the end of his tether.

Many people who come from emotionally healthy families as you likely did make the same types of errors when it comes to dealing with dysfunctional families like your DHs so do not beat yourself up over it. I can sort of see why you said it too because you think it is sad that they do not get on. Unfortunately not all families are kind and loving at all. You were very fortunate in that you yourself came from a loving family.

I would read "Toxic Inlaws" by Susan Forward to further understand the dynamics.

Oh dear.

My husband comes from a very difficult, unsupportive family. There are rifts and feuds. My husband feels a deep sense of grief and shame about this. He is embarrassed to be asked about his family by my relatives, or friends and acquaintances, because there is nothing good to say, and because he fears being judged. I wonder if your husband has similar feelings?

Let him decide what to do about his family, just support him in that decision.

It is absolutely not your place to approve or disapprove!

I wasn't neglected or sexually abused.

I have zero contact with my family.

Gosh I feel so sorry for him, he had to feel he needed to ask YOU permission?

I'd say you were abusive.

So their relationship has been bad for about 40 years ?
And you know nothing about what happened in the past ?
And you have no personal experience of having toxic parents ?

Why exactly do you think that you can fix this problem ?
After 20 years of marriage,don't you know your DH well enough to trust his judgement?

It is their history and their relationship, so even if it saddens you it is up to your DH how he deals with his mother or with BIL. All you needed to say to him was, do as you think best. It isn't as if he has to justify it to a third party. The whys and wherefores may not be something he can wholly articulate. I am glad you are going to tell him you're sorry.

Thank you everyone, you're giving me a whole different perspective on this. As you say I have been extremely lucky in my relationship with my own mum and cannot imagine being estranged from her. I haven't been able to see it from his point of view really and this is a huge help, and is also helping make sense of some other stuff I have found odd. He says the reason he doesn't want me to see them is he feels the rest of the family, sister, BiL, are manipulating me into taking their side. Hearing all of you makes me think they may have been succeeding a bit. They do often paint him as the 'black sheep' when in fact they have reason to be proud of him.

I don't have a toxic relationship with my DM but it is difficult at times and I often experience feelings of embarrassment and humiliation when they visit and my DP's family see her true colours. I would be very hurt if DP suggested I didn't know my own mind when talking about the effect she has on me. He doesn't do this; he listens, tries to comfort and offer supportive comments but ultimately lets me be the one to lead the discussion. And I know he never judges ME for HER behaviour.

I'm glad, ruth.
My siblings also ganged up on me with my mother, it's not uncommon at all. I am better off out of it, and it sounds like your DH feels the same. It is a shame we can't all be happy families, but real life isn't often like that.

By the time DW met DM, DM was no longer the fearsome tyrant of my childhood. They got on well, after I'd fired a warning shot concerning DW2B's regional accent.

But some of my instinctive reactions took a bit of explaining: DW had never been hit as a child, and she had to be careful about sudden movements and not surprising me from behind in the early days.

All happy families are alike, and people from them have trouble comprehending the other sort.

I can't ever imagine not trusting my DH to know his own mind about what he believes is best for himself. You don't seem to have that respect for your DH.

I think one reason this is hard for me to understand is I am a lot younger than DH and by the time I met MiL she was not, as you say, the fearsome childhood tyrant but a little old lady who seemed very vulnerable. Even 20 years ago she was in her late 60s and not in good health
I felt/feel
sorry for her because she is old and poorly and quite isolated cos she is deaf. I never saw her when she was in full flight when he was little. His auntie (her sister) has told him some things she did when he was little such as leaving him on a potty for hours but he doesn't like telling me things. I told that to his sister and the sister said his aunty is lying and causing trouble.
Sorry to the people who think I'm abusive and awful, I hope not, I am trying to do the right thing, that's why I'm here asking you all.

He says the reason he doesn't want me to see them is he feels the rest of the family, sister, BiL, are manipulating me into taking their side.

Bingo! I had this too, especially with my husband's sibling. And in front of my family he was teased, mocked and put down. It was all supposed to be 'banter'. DH didn't know what was worse-being embarrassed like this by his relatives and being terrified people would believe it, or having people see through it and realising his relatives were completely awful (it was the latter that happened).

We've always stuck completely together around his family. Always outnumbered, never outgunned type thing.

Whilst I appreciate that you have had a healthy relationship with your own DM; so possibly have some difficulty seeing past statements like this 'you only get one mum'. But I think you have not been supportive at all.

This is about him, his past and how he feels....and is not about you!

He probably asked you for your permission; because even though you have said you have supported him, he probably has known that you have not really approved.

What I find quite astonishing OP is that, yes he may not have gone into great detail about what happened to him it's probably too traumatic. Yet you have virtually swept what he has told you (and the aunty) under the carpet...because as you said 'l felt/feel sorry for her because she is old and quite isolated because she is deaf'.

I am virtually NC with my own mother and my DH has supported me in this. In fact he has been incredulous upon how I have been treated by her. He also has a emotionally healthy relationship with his family.

OP You need to step up and support your DH.

Re taking sides

You married and fell in love with him, not them and (it would seem) you love him dearly, they are just an add on to some extent.

Yes, I do have great difficulty seeing past the statements like 'you only have one mum' and so forth, that's what I've always believed. That's a very perceptive comment. I am trying to understand and be supportive and seeing it all from your perspective I can appreciate I have failed in that very badly. I am now rethinking 360 degrees....

Don't feel bad, or at least, what you have thought up til now is understandable. I used to think the same about my husband who has a very difficult relationship with his mother and he used to say awful things about her and I would think like you about how she probably did really love him and it would be better to get on, you only get one mum- because I only had the template of my own loving mum relationship. Over the years the whole story has leaked out from various sources including my husband and now she is lucky I don't physically attack her for anger at how she treated my husband. I don't of course and I take his lead in how to handle it, I do feel bad though that I didn't quite get it til later on. It doesn't really matter why he wants to distance himself, he does and I suspect he has very good reason, if he is a loving man in other areas of his life.

You are right napoleon of crime. I feel very out of my depth as have no template, and I do feel bad that I didn't understand. So glad I came on here, it is my first time, I was quite nervous and also thought I might get no response. A relief to know we're not alone.

I see my mum briefly and really it's a duty call (toxic family). I can't cut her off, she's too old and frail. Your husbands idea of a short visit alone is a good one. (I'm finding it hard to type coherently here!)

There's no point asking eg siblings if such-and-such story is true, you just won't get an accurate account - in toxic families nothing makes any sense. You have to stick with him and support him, even tho you don't know what happened... Incidentally, he may have told you what happened and you may not have recognised the severity of his account of what happened? People who have never experienced a toxic family dynamic just don't get it, how deeply damaging it is. Perhaps read up on toxic families?

Nothing makes any sense = it's high impossible to get to the truth