But we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It's March 2015 and the Stately Home is still open to visitors. Unfortunately I have not been able to make the links work; is it possible for one of you lovely people to do that?.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
October 2014

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

I'm looking for a bit of advice too so another long post.
My mother emailed yesterday morning asking if I would meet her. I've been working through the toxic parents book and reading about the importance of confrontation and I feel like this is my opportunity. And I appreciate my mother emailing as she's respecting my boundaries and not turning up at my home/Dr's appt as she has done before... But I still feel thrown into the middle of it as if I have to reply and arrange to meet. Because she'll be thinking 'well, I emailed because you said I shouldn't be spontaneous last time... that really hurt me but I'm good enough to put it aside and do things your way.' In a way I feel like because of that I owe it to her to meet her. And I feel like after so long of nc with no full, absolute confrontation I owe it to her too, kind of a reward for waiting so patiently.
So anyway I 50% feel like I should meet with her so she can't say I'm a bad person/ungrateful for not meeting with her, and 50% so I can use it as an opportunity to confront her.
In terms of confrontation I have no idea where to begin. She is very very much martyr and helpless and this spans everything. She also percieves herself as very strong and holding everyone else up and everyone just takes, takes, takes... This extends to my life and to be honest one of the main things I've found positive in NC is I can admit I've had a shit time and be proud of my home, job and relationship when I've dragged myself up from attempting suicide and jobseekers allowance/dropping out of high school. I could never feel this proud of myself before because it would be implying that my mum didn't support me at the expense of her own health/happiness/finance. (which she didn't ) She's also very enmeshed in my life and everywhere, turns up at my house with a full fruitbowl as she's worried I'm not getting enough vitamins, contacting council for me about issues etc. She believes she's the expert on everything and only being a good mother by trying to help me too (see how this doesn't fit with my experience of having moved out as a teen, lived in three homes in three cities as an adult, gained a degree etc?!) She's also the expert on everyone, knows what they're thinking, how they're feeling and analyses constantly which is emotionally overwhelming but also difficult to offer a different point of view especially on my childhood/father/siblings. Especially if my explanation involves a sibling not being out of control but instead reacting to my mother... Aaaaand we're back martyr again.
I suppose my point is, how do I articulate a confrontation when the book suggests 'as a child you did x and it made me feel like y' when I want to say 'it's just your personality. It leaks in everywhere.' I have no idea what I want to say or what I want to gain and tbh I'm worried it's the FOG and grief of not having any parents that's making me want to discuss things in the first place. I trust myself to stay strong and this thread is helping with that so much, I just need a starting point...
Thank you. And maybe at the end of ANOTHER long, rambling post is the right place to add that stately homes has made me much stronger and happier in the last few months, you're such lovely people.

cleanmyhouse Like Loveheart0 says it is familiar and can't say how okay it will be but others are better at giving advice and I found it comforting that I am not the only one.

It is upsetting remembering everything. I have found that as I get older I get the more upsetting I am finding all the memories. Not sure if that is because my DC are getting older and I think that I couldn't do that to my DC

The fact that she lives away is helpful as you can limit contact.

I feel appalled when i look at my boys and think about the things I was put through at their age and much younger. Seeing that they, even as teenagers, are still in need of that rock of an adult that will put their needs first, support them and give them all the love they need just shows me how fucked up things were when i was growing up.

My mum had her problems too, and I can't hold an awful lot of things against her from when we were little. Shes guilt ridden about a lot of it now. But this self obsession, the me me me, the fact that everyone and everything is fair game for her analysis, thoughts and opinions, I can't take it anymore. I don't want limited contact, i want to be straight with her. But because of the way I grew up, because of the victim role and the martyr, I really struggle to do it because I don't want to hurt her.

I'm also shit scared I'm like her and can't see it.

Oh bloody hell, I am self obsessed, i meant to say thankyou for your responses, it's comforting knowing I'm not alone.

Loveheart0 Some other posters are much better at advice than I am but I will look at it from my point of view. What do you think will happen if you confront her? I would go for it if you can guarantee that you will get something out of it. I say this because I know my mum would deny having said any of the things so all it would do is given her more ammunition to proof what an awful daughter I am.

If you do confront it could end up with you going NC which is fine if that is what you really want. Others may disagree.

You can still meet her and decide at the time whether you confront her. No point in antagonizing her by not meeting. Again from personal experience my mum never gives more than 48 hrs notice of her honouring us with her presence. Once when she gave me 24 hrs notice and we at an all day sports tournament with the DC so I text back (bearing in mind the need to spring clean the house and not getting home until the evening) saying sorry we we going to friends for lunch. My eldest is 20 so once in 20 years I said 'sorry it's not convenient' she told someone that every time she asks to come I say no.

Is her trying to help you her way of trying to make amends for not being there in the past or is she just an interferring ......?

Hi cleanmyhouse,

re your comment:-
"But because of the way I grew up, because of the victim role and the martyr, I really struggle to do it because I don't want to hurt her".

You say that you do not want to hurt her but she has never shown you that particular consideration besides which she does not care that she has hurt you.

You have two qualities amongst many that she is lacking in; empathy and insight. She really has neither; I cannot emphasise enough the narcissist's complete lack of empathy here.

She has used you as her own personal emotional punchbag and therapist combined (some narcs do this to their children at great cost to the child now adult as you are seeing). I am not all that surprised either to read that she is a therapist herself; she enjoys the power and status that job gives her. She should be struck off frankly!.

Many people have problems and a crap childhood but they do not act as your mother did. What she did and still does was and is both cruel and heartless; she only acts in her own interests and certainly not in yours. You are but a bit part player in her universe of which she resides at the centre.

How do your brothers get on with her these days; do they have any sort of relationship with her (even though it really is not possible to have any sort of relationship with a narcissist)?. What was your assigned role into your family of origin's narcissistic dynamic?.

Being straight with her will achieve nothing; she will not listen to you, does not want to listen and will not change. She is and will not be the mother you still want her to be and that is not your fault. It is not your fault she is like this; her own birth family did that to her. You do not need her approval any more; not that she ever gave that to you anyway. You can only change how you react to her; reducing further all means of contact with her would be a good start. Raise your low boundaries even higher even though you've been conditioned to put your own needs dead last.

I think that you will only get peace if you were to further lower all contact with her.

I would suggest you read "Children of the Self Absorbed" written by Nina Brown.

cleanmyhouse I am not so worried about hurting my parents as I feel they have really hurt me with their behaviour but I know my mum will deny it all and then all hell will break lose and everyone will be expected to take sides and of course it won't be my side. At the same time they are now at an age where death could be just round the corner and the thought that they won't ever know how shit they made me feel is making me feel very upset.

I am absolutely paranoid that I could be like them. My DC could be coming on to mumsnet in a few years time talking about me!

You don't mention an OH so am wondering ho much support you are getting in real life.

There doesn't seem to be an easy way to dela with any of this.

I hope some of this makes sense but I have had a few glasses of wine so am feeling a bit sorry for myself.

Many women with narcissistic mothers fear that they themselves will turn into them. In many cases such a fear is completely unfounded and without foundation. These people look at their own children and know that they would not treat them the same as they were as children.

Also you have empathy and insight; those are qualities that your mother simply does not have. You are not her and never will be. You are two very different people.

It really does matter how you feel now. As the first message states:-
"What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth".

Attila You always put it so well.

Loveheart, if you want to go down the confront route, be very clear that you're doing it because you need to say it and not because you think your mum's going to go "OK yes you have a point and I'm sorry". Because that almost certainly won't happen.

And if you don't feel ready, you don't have to meet with her yet. If you need more time, so be it. Do this to your schedule, not hers. (From what you say, it will be a first!)

Cleanly house I recognise that fear of being your mother and treating your children the same way. It's got worse for me as my children get older and bizarrely it gets worse when I don't see her for a bit.

When I do, I realise that there is no acceptance of me as a separate person from her even now I am 38. My dad bullies and my mother manipulates. Yes occasionally I catch myself exhibiting some of Thr behaviours she modelled to me but by an large I want my children to be themselves and I respect their feelings and needs and try to meet them as individuals not what I think they should be.

It's difficult though when sometimes you have to really parent and make decisions that your children won't like, especially as teens, but the questions I ask are, am I doing this for me or for them, who will benefit, what outcome do I want to achieve - is it to empower them in the long run while keeping them safe now or is it to make me feel better or to look better to other people.

It's so bloody hard though. Sometimes it's just too hard.

Actually she does care. She tears herself apart about our childhood. She doesn't deny any of it, she has spent a lot of time trying to work on herself. That doesn't negate what happened, but I don't hold it all against her. Some of it yes, but not everything.

She hasn't ever used me as an emotional punchbag. An emotional prop, her counsellor, the parent when i should have been the child, but there was never any nastiness. Neglect? Yes. Emotional deprivation? Yes. Emotional abandonment? Yes. But never bullying or cruelty. She was too much of a victim for any of that.

I'm not sure any amount of work on herself will ever really change her. She can talk the counselling talk, but none of it ever seems to be felt or internalised.

And the self absorption. Dear God the self absorption.

She suffers from anxiety. I have succesfully treated my anxiety with hypnotherapy and have suggested it to her so many times, but i doubt she'll ever do it because it might actually work and i'm not sure she really truly wants to be better or happy.

One brother has a similar relationship as me with her, but he manages to be more straight with her. Shes genuinely grateful for his honesty. My other brother passed away 5 years ago. They had a very, very difficult relationship before he died. His death destroyed her, particularly because of the guilt she feels about our childhood

Hi clean

You say she " tears herself apart about our childhood "

Do you mean she regrets it and has got help so she can be a better mother now ? That's she's working hard not to repeat the mistakes of the past , and make it up to you now ? Does she truly understand the impact the neglect or abuse had on your ? Does she allow you to have your own feelings and opinions about it ? Has she decided to become a totally different kind of mother now ?

Or do you mean that she talks about how sorry she is for herself, what a terrible life she had then, what an awful mother she was and how she could understand if you never spoke to her again ? Does she go on and on about it , saying how awful it was and prompting you to minimise it and repeat that you forgive her ? It it all about HER, her feelings, memories, excuses , reasons , issues ? Is she the star of the " terrible mummy " show?

clean

I recalled this when I read about your mother, "tearing herself apart about out childhood".

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation".

clean your mum sounds very similar to mine. Will sit and wail (literally) "I'm a terrible mother! But I did it for the best and YOU HAVE TO FORGIVE ME!" If you point out other choices she could have made, she just throws her hands in the air and sobs harder.

She is absolutely invested in her victim/martyr status. When I went NC I suggested (for probably the hundredth time ever) that she get counselling, and not because "pocket told me to" but in a genuine attempt to be a better person. I very much doubt she has done, and will have put hundreds of roadblocks in her own way such as transport difficulties, can't afford it (but can afford to shop in Waitrose apparently), don't know how to find one, etc etc etc.

You said i doubt she'll ever do it because it might actually work and i'm not sure she really truly wants to be better or happy.

Yes, mine is the same. She gets a perverse satisfaction out of being miserable.

I think there's a mix of all it with her.

She has, undoubtedly, done some work on herself and it painfully aware of how difficult things were for us. She did do her best with what she had and it is a miracle that she dragged us through the difficulties and that thankfully, we have turned out better than she did.

She doesn't hand wring, cry or beg for forgiveness. She doesn't minimise. There have been times that i have been very honest about some of the things that went on and often her response is to have a moment of clarity and thank me for my honesty, saying she appreciates it and appreciates that it must be difficult for me to tell her. But I think she has such self preservation techniques going on, that things are never quite ingested. She can't see that the person who makes her unhappy is her.

Essentially I feel like I am dealing with someone whose default position emotionally is that of a child.

I will never cut contact with her. But i always feel I am managing things and sometimes its very wearing.

Pocket...

Yes, perverse satisfaction out of being miserable sounds right.

You are dealing with someone whose emotional development stopped around the age of six.

Narcissists have normal, even superior, intellectual development while remaining emotionally and morally immature. Dealing with them can give you the sense of trying to have a reasonable discussion with a very clever six-year-old -- this is an age when normal children are grandiose and exhibitionistic, when they are very resistant to taking the blame for their own misbehavior, when they understand what the rules are (e.g., that lying, cheating, and stealing are prohibited) but are still trying to wriggle out of accepting those rules for themselves. This is the year, by the way, when children were traditionally thought to reach the age of reason and when first communions (and first confessions) were made.

Having a narcissist for a mother is a lot like living under the supervision of a six-year-old. Narcissists are always pretending, and with a narcissistic mother it's a lot like, "Let's play house. I'll pretend to be the mother and you pretend to be the baby," though, as the baby, you'll be expected to act like a doll (keep smiling, no matter what) and you'll be treated like a doll -- as an inanimate object, as a toy to be manipulated, dressed and undressed, walked around and have words put in your mouth; something that can be broken but not hurt, something that will be dropped and forgotten when when something more interesting comes along.

She is really the consummate martyr; its all about her really.

Stating that you would never cut contact with her sounds pretty decisive but perhaps also a thought you would want to review from time to time. Why not lower contact further?.

Do you really want to spend the rest of your days with her purely trying to "manage" someone like your mother?. You need to ask yourself why that is. If this woman was a friend rather than your mother would you have anything to do with her?.

I don't really need to ask myself why that is. It's because she's my mother and despite all the difficulties, my life would not be enriched by not having her in it. She can swing between being more aware and being a lovely mum and defaulting back to her child mentality.

I'd say her emotional development probably stopped younger than 6 in some ways. She was the 5th child of an unmarried mother in a tiny rural community in the 50's. She may as well have been named "shame".

I appreciate all of you responses and I can really identify with a lot of what you are saying, but some of it is not familiar to me at all.

Hi everyone, I'd really appreciate some advice. I posted a while back about my parents who have a history of entitlement and expect me to sort things out and bail them out all the time. They asked for a large loan last year to fund some building work that they had messed up the financials on. I didn't really see any way I could say no, although I was really pissed off at having to give them money yet again. After reading your support on that thread, I drew a line in the sand, or tried to. It turns out that my parents received a grant to cover the work but didn't tell me or offer to repay the money. It felt like the straw that broke the camel's back. We've got some cash flow issues of our own at the moment and I worked up the courage a couple of weeks ago to ask for the money back in a very calm and reasonable way.

I've just received a rambling text from my mum which has really made me wobble. There's the usual mad story about some unfortunate circumstances that have left them without money but they've managed to scrape together some of the cash and can borrow some of the rest if they throw themselves at the mercy of other family. I now feel hugely guilty about this and I feel like I should just tell them not to bother and keep it. Am I being unreasonable to ask for the money back or should I just let it go? I tried to put myself and my DH and DC first but now I feel like the world biggest bitch and I can't breathe. I don't know what to do.

Do you think either of your parents here have ever felt guilty; no.

They should and must give you back this money you lent them. Pursue this and keep asking for your funds to be repaid. They still have not repaid you and you now receive some rambling text (your mother cannot even be bothered to talk on the phone) saying that they now have some of it. They need to send you all that they borrowed from you.

It is not your fault they are so irresponsible with funds, this is your money. They have taken money away from you and your children, you may well have gone without because of them.

Never ever lend them money again.

Thank you. I really needed to hear that. Why do I feel so shitty, though? I've had this horrible sick feeling ever since I got the text.

Because they're brought you up to believe that their needs come first and they are entitled to anything of yours that they want. :(

I managed fifty two days of complete non-contact. It was easier than I would like to admit - I regret that there isn't anything that I missed about them. Family isn't meant to be like that Anyhow, the attempts at hoovering have since begun, but I'm refusing to engage. It seems to be working.