I don't really understand why we are arguing and I don't know what to do from there.

[BertieBotts]

Sorry if this is really jumbled. Really confused and a bit bewildered at the moment.

Just had a bit of an argument with DH after he laughed about me not knowing what a button on a mouse does. I admit I did blow up a bit. Said I don't bloody care what the buttons on the mouse do apart from the left and right click, why is it funny, you are always laughing in this really scathing way whenever I don't know something technical or that YOU think is obvious and just, basically, cut it out, it's shitty.

He then blew up in response, said I need to get better self esteem, of course he is not laughing at me, I keep misinterpreting his words or putting words in his mouth and he wouldn't do that. And that I keep criticising everything he does at the moment. I asked what is funny about it, then, if he's not laughing because it's hilarious how stupid I am. Apparently he laughs when he thinks it is "cute" OK, maybe fair, but I still feel that he often uses a scathing "WOW, that's so OBVIOUS, how do you not know THAT" kind of tone of voice when he notices something "cute" but as I was trying to explain that, he cut across me with a massive rant about how he feels like I criticise everything he does and he can't do anything right. And then stormed off to the bedroom. I tried to talk to him about half an hour ago but he was asleep. He has since woken up, used the toilet and gone back again. I don't think he's sulking particularly but it's clear he wants space so I will leave him again.

I'm just kind of baffled and confused now about what is actually happening. I'm sure there are other things behind it - he mentioned that I've told him he's not allowed to get mad at me if I don't stick to promises on household stuff. I am a bit (a lot) crap domestically - cleaning etc. That's an ongoing thing since forever, part of who I am, not an exaggeration/me or anyone else putting myself down, I am lazy, disorganised and quite happy to live in a pigsty. I do make an effort for DH and DS but a lot of the time I do just forget or overlook perfectly simple stuff. I do try to negate this - I have a chart to look at to remind me, have tried various reminder techniques etc, but it slips my mind even so. I know this is really bloody frustrating to live with but I am trying my hardest.

I have never ever felt like I wasn't "allowed" to discuss something with him before like he made me feel today. I don't walk on eggshells and we talk things out usually. We respect each other.

I think that I can be a bit overly negative, I'm more likely to comment if something is wrong rather than if it is right but I did not feel like I was getting on him for every little thing. Maybe I could have brought up the "feeling laughed at" thing differently, but I don't think I was wrong to bring it up.

Argh. I guess I'll try and talk to him when DS is in bed, but I suspect a big reason of why he's feeling hurt is because I don't really get what he is talking about, so I'm sure it's going to kick off a big argument when we do talk about it. I just don't really know where to start I suppose?

Are you me?

Ha! I don't know. DH has run a bath and has come into the living room and ignored me when I said hi

I have also realised that I still feel bloody defensive and am going to be unable to discuss this without squashing that, and I can't squash it. So. Yay. This will be a fun evening!

Have also realised that he is pissed off because I'm defensive to EVERYTHING. Which is true. So I think he thinks I'm being defensive about the tech comments. But this time I'm not being defensive and do genuinely have a gripe with the way he's saying stuff, the realisation that I'm normally defensive and have to stop assuming that he's sniping at me when he's just sharing a thought about something is fairly recent, and I haven't really had a chance to practice not being defensive about that yet, I am starting to be able to say "Oh shit, I've jumped to a massive conclusion and you're not being critical, I'm sorry." whereas in the past I was not even aware enough to notice that.

And now I can't discuss this without being defensive. So I should have just skipped the entire OP and instead posted a thread saying "How the fuck do you not be defensive??"

Sorry to hear you are upset by the recent argument with your husband, marriage can be difficult sometimes.

Do you think there's any chance you have become more defensive than you used to be? If so, you need to ask yourself why. Or perhaps he has become more critical of you? If that's the case, then you need to ask him some serious questions. Not now, because it doesn't sound like he would be very receptive, but you could try broaching the subject when he's in a better mood. Is he stressed at work for instance? Is there something that is troubling him that you don't know about? Just a thought.

In the meantime, I would ask him if he would like to join you in a glass of wine and see how he responds. With any luck it'll all be forgotten in no time and you can have a nice evening.

I don't think I am more defensive, although certainly it's only just come to my attention. I think he's finally getting to a point where the defensiveness is bothering him if that makes sense. We've been together for 4 years, living together a year and a half, (and lived together for 18 months before this, but there was a long gap), married 1 year.

If it's relevant, I strongly suspect that I have undiagnosed ADHD, which is part of the cause of the crap memory/household stuff, which I think he was assuming would get magically better, (which pisses me off, because I asked him SEVERAL TIMES, are you SURE you can live with me) and also according to some stuff I've been reading is a likely cause of defensiveness (because your whole life you are told "Just try harder" "You don't care enough" etc).

If you think you might have undiagnosed ADHD then I think you need to get yourself to your GP for some advice and see if he can refer you to someone who knows about these things. Perhaps then your husband will a bit more sympathetic and understanding of your situation. If you are diagnosed with ADHD, then your husband will have to learn to live with it, and you will have to try your best to moderate your behaviour as best you can. There are ways around this - all is not lost. Stay strong.

It is in the plan - would have been done already but there are reasons (which aren't really relevant to this).

Is everyone doing bedtime/dinner? :( I could really do with some advice or input for now.

Marriages can be hard! One day of sulking in bed/not answering your hi is, well, not much in the scheme of things.

Yy you say you asked him are you SURE about your messiness etc, but you,re talking as though messiness is just a concept. The reality is he has to live in the messiness - which is bloody hard. And tbf loses you major points straight off the bat.

Then you're 'defensive' - again, for possibly good reason - but he has to live with you biting his head off regularly. That's not nice, it's not all about you, there are two of you in the relationship. Sounds like he feels there's no space left for him bcs it's taken up with your 'legitimate' difficulties. Which are hard to live with.

Hi Bertie :) We used to post on a thread together years ago so I know a bit about your situation and relationship - just so you know that i'm not being stalkerish

Firstly - read back through all that, and you'll see that by the end of it you've pretty much convinced yourself that you are the entire problem. This is almost certainly not the case.

The argument you describe is not completely dissimilar to ones that DH and I have had in the past, so I can imagine the dynamic.

If you can, you need to sit down and discuss things calmly. It is absolutely not on if he is being generally critical where there is no need, but if you've fallen into a pattern where you don't do things and then he needs to do them then that will permeate the relationship if you are not careful to keep the dynamic equal in other ways.

Can you maybe give one another a chance to talk uninterrupted about how you feel, without butting in, and then discuss it - then swap - so that you really understand where each other are coming from?

Do you think your DH perceives himself as your rescuer, and that is causing him to feel somewhat superior to you?

Just some thoughts - I'll come back later. Chin up lovely, i'm sure you'll work through it together.

My ex (note 'ex') husband used to laugh at me saying I was 'cute'

I ended up wanting to pan his sneery cunt face in with a shovel

Don't be me

Rather than loses you points, it drains the tank.

I think there is a duty of care between partners in a long term relationship to speak kindly to each other and show each other condideration. It should be easy to do this because it's meant to be based on love. Yes, in any sort of partnership there is bound to be irritation occasionally or a disagreement or some leg pulling. ... everyone's human..... but there is no place for anything that is done deliberately & in the full knowledge that the other person doesn't like it. Provocation. ... winding you up.... is nasty

Ha! Yes I did slightly object to the "cute" comment but I see what he was saying and wouldn't mind it as such.

Hi Ali. I am shit at names so sorry I'm not sure which thread you mean but it's always nice to see someone from a while back :)

I suppose I am seeing myself as the entire problem, but I think that in the most part, I am. Yes he could be a bit more understanding, and word things differently, he could make an effort to learn a bit about ADHD (he does not think that I have "anything" although he is - very - supportive of me seeking help in that direction. I think he will not be willing to try to understand about that unless it is confirmed.) If I'm honest, we do both tend to jump into critical type wording.

I am SO hot on the rescuer thing. Will come back with more on that because we might be about to talk.

Oh trust me, I know the housework thing is draining. I try everything. I am genuinely gutted when I realise he's given up and done stuff and feels bad. I have boards up all over the place with reminders, lists, alarms.

I don't know what else I can do, I am doing everything. I hope medication/therapy might help but it's pretty much my last resort, I don't know what I will do after that if it doesn't.

I'm the messy one, I also suspect I have/had ADD. I start doing something (tidying) then find a piece of paper, mind wanders, end up doing something else, nothing gets finished. I try really hard but it does exasperate DH.

Things I've found help;

Work on communication. Use I statements, no judging or fighting words/actions (always, never, why, sulking, rolling eyes, storming off).

Tit for tat but healthy. So come up with something you don't like (laughing and calling you cute when you're needing help or feeling vulnerable) and he gets one too (messiness) and you each ask for a positive action, achievable and comparable. So you get help when you ask and he gets to expect a chore done every day to completion.

Don't 'but' him. I love you and you're wonderful but... No; when you talk about the positive, it's positive. When you talk about the negative, it's negative.

Three baskets;

1. Deal with now (really, the hills you will die on. For me it's using the 'nag' word)

1. Calm conversation during an unrelated time. Things that need to be dealt with but not right now.

1. Let it gooooo, let it gooooo. Shit that doesn't really matter.

I should add that when I lived alone, I was under SS intervention and on the verge of being kicked out of my house by my landlord because I was not able to keep on top of the housework, so it's not like I'm just relying on him because he's here and would be on top of it if it was just me. It's not something I've ever had a handle on.

He doesn't want to talk tonight, so rescuer script here...

Something will happen which is annoying or that he needs to mention. I listen and emphatically agree and apologise, fully intending to address it. Then one of two things happen. Either I address it for a while and then slip, or I totally lose track of it and it's gone. Either way, I think there have been a handful of things where he says "Please can you make sure to X from now on" and I have said "Sure" and it has stuck. The vast majority don't stick whether he asks once or 100 times.

Of course, nobody minds reminding or mentioning something once or a couple of times. It's when he keeps having to repeat it ad nauseum. Then he gets all frustrated and insists that he's going to "have to do something about it" (like, suggestions have been that he starts controlling the internet or something.) I always emphatically disagree and say, no, I do not want you to treat me like a child and I don't want you to "take control", this is my issue and I will deal with it. I know it's frustrating, but I feel like that was the deal and I have never lied about it, presented a different idea, perhaps I have given the impression that me "working on it" would eventually make me into a functioning adult but if I have, it's 1, because I believed it myself, and 2, contains the word "EVENTUALLY". Not in 18 months of living together. And he does agree that I am better than when I first moved here.

But he gets frustrated. He doesn't want to remind me about stuff forever. I understand that but I don't think he should adopt a "parental" role and try to train me out of it. I suppose on some level I think he should suck it up and remind me, because I really do honestly try to remember myself. I wouldn't mind if he went to a milder tactic e.g. a code word so it's not confrontational, it's not that I "need" harsh tactics, as he seems to think is his only option, I'm just shit at managing it by myself.

I get the impression he does in some way want to adopt a bit of a rescuer role in order to see if it will work but I am just at a complete refusal to let our relationship go in that direction. I'm a bit afraid of it, in all honesty, because I think it would just destroy any equal footing that we have.

Oh and not really relevant or helpful but I swear to god I have sensory defensiveness as well and I am SO BLOODY FRUSTRATED with the fact that he prefers the house to be around 2-3 degrees colder than I do, and that it feels like the bloody arctic to me when it is 3 degrees colder than comfortable.

Maybe it's my turn to sulk in bed/a nice warm bath

Sounds like a normal marital misunderstanding to me, where both of you have assumed the worst about each other's intentions.

Seems like you're doing all you can do, improving yourself as much as you can without beating yourself up.

What's the problem?

Oh yes, the "but" thing is very important. It's difficult - I'm well aware of good communication and how to do it in theory but I can't seem to do it in person because panic intervenes.

Plus, I have difficulty holding onto the details of a conversation after the conversation ends. It's easier for me to have points I need to remember or reflect on written down, perhaps I should start taking notes.

I found the numbered list on this page extremely helpful and would show it to DH except I really feel I need to listen to his POV first and understand how I can act differently.

I don't know what to do if (when) he tells me how I can help him and I fully intend to do those things but then struggle or am unable to actually do them. Saying "But I can't do that" just seems like a cop out, and we go around in circles forever.

Hmm maybe you're right Mama and I am catastrophising a bit.

Can you get a cleaner? It wouldn't remove the underlying issues but might make you both a bit happier re: the mess

You are very incisive and your posts are really comprehensive ( I mean this as a compliment). I know nothing about ADD but how do you concentrate long enough to write them? Could you use these same skills re: the housework etc? Eg - 10 minute bursts? Sorry if you have gone through all of this before.

I think that's a bit of a myth about ADD :) I can concentrate on things and I can concentrate on housework no problem, (well, yes, OK, I do get distracted halfway through sometimes.) My main struggle is to remember to get started on it, or to notice that it needs doing. And partly of course it's personality - I am happy to just sit in the middle of the mess whereas it stresses DH out. The ADD part is that I know it stresses him out but I tend to forget that day to day. As soon as something reminds me of it - it can be a really small trigger - I think "Oh no!" and immediately try and remedy it but by then it's often too late and he feels hurt because his assumption is that I don't care about it stressing him out. I do care, very much so, but my systems for remembering to do something about that are quite faulty.

Cleaner not a financial option at the moment. Plus it is about other issues as well, not just cleaning. Staying on top of bills, being organised for work, parenting (both keeping track of discipline/stuff I'm supposed to/want to remind DS to do, and arranging things to do with him, not getting lost in my own stuff and losing track of time, not getting frustrated with him, reacting shortly to him wanting something non urgent), staying in touch with friends, doing social expectation stuff. It would be nice to have a cleaner, though :) It was nice when we had a dishwasher and I do find it easier to keep on top of things when the cleaning process is streamlined, unlike now where our living situation is such that there is extra effort involved - no hot water in kitchen, only bathroom, no tumble drier and washing machine in basement (we live on 2nd floor), awkward tiny kitchen with lack of storage.

Right now I am having a physical reaction to the stress, my vision is tunnelling, blacking out at the edges with veins as though I am going to faint, (I won't.) slightly red/orange tinted in the centre and it's very uncomfortable to switch from e.g. looking at a lit screen to looking at a non-lit surface or from one website to another with different colouring/fonts, I feel lightheaded and "spacey", my hands are buzzing and I'm slightly shaking, jaw tense to avoid teeth chattering, very much like a caffeine rush, I am extremely fidgety, I need to have my legs up on the chair with me. Pulse and breathing seem normal. I don't feel hungry at all despite it being the time I normally eat, stomach is a bit churny (although not as bad as it was), my hands feel quite numb with pins and needles that come and go, and DS commented that they were cold when I hugged him goodnight. (It's probably about 20, 21 degrees in this room.) I feel like I won't cry this time but often it does trigger tears. The spacey/out of body feeling is quite strong. This visceral reaction happens both whenever I talk (type) about things like this and also when I can't talk to DH about something and have to wait for the feelings. (I'm typing it out now, so I can save it for later, probably to show to doctor.) As I feel calmer the spacey feeling, shakiness and vision restrictions remain but a feeling of intense hunger comes in. So I will go and get some food now.

I have a hard time realising that when someone (DH, but anyone really) is angry or frustrated or upset about something I did/am doing, that that can be separate from them rejecting or disliking me as a whole person, which probably has some psychological root, but in any case, it is how I react to things. I have recently understood that this is a separate thing and can understand it intellectually and am better with it but still have a hard time not reacting in fear to that feeling of being rejected totally.

Oh and my hearing is probably a bit knocked out too but I am wearing headphones, so I can't really tell.

I know I probably sound like I look insane or am having some kind of breakdown but you wouldn't know any of it to look at me except that I am probably being a bit starey and slow to react.

You don't seem insane at all! Just like things are getting on top of you a bit. I haven't really got any advice for you other than make sure to be kind to yourself

Well we have kissed and made up :) not had any kind of discussion, though. I'll think about how to word things over the next few days and then maybe we can sit down together.