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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

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Original poster

Doubting myself again - how many times did he rape me?

38 replies

snowflake02 · 10/02/2015 11:51

I'm sorry to be asking for help again. I'm having another wobble. I can understand how it was technically (still struggle with the word) rape the time i clearly said no, but what about when I didn't say an explicit no, but thought I had made it clear I wasn't interested? (He woke me up and I told him I was trying to sleep and removed his hands a couple of times but he just put them straight back and carried on). Or the time I felt so intimidated by his behaviour that I couldn't say anything at all?

I think it really is time that I admitted everything to myself and working out how many times it happened feels like an important place to start.

Sorry to be back with more questions, just seem to be struggling again. Believe it or not I am doing so much better than when I first posted.

Thank you for reading.

OP posts:

Queenlizandabottleofgin · 10/02/2015 11:57

Hi op have you spoke to a rape councillor? I think you need professional advice.

here here is a link you will find useful and will have people that you can talk to that have been professionally trained to help you.

shovetheholly · 10/02/2015 11:58

Oh, snowflake - it sounds like you've been through an awful lot.

I would implore you to get professional help as you go back through what has happened to you, because it can lead to very dark and horrible places. I do think you'd benefit from having a counsellor there as a kind of safety net to make sure you can explore what has happened and your feelings about it in safety.

Sending you much love.

Original poster

snowflake02 · 10/02/2015 12:01

Thank you, unfortunately I can't ever get through.

I have been seeing a therapist who has been very helpful, but sometimes I still wobble. Can't see her again for a while as have run out of money to pay for it.

OP posts:

OurMiracle1106 · 10/02/2015 12:05

Speak to rape crisis they can and do provide longer term counselling for free or very small fee.

Queenlizandabottleofgin · 10/02/2015 12:07

I would keep trying to get through or try email for a phone appointment.

You sound like you are trying to process a lot.

LadyBlaBlah · 10/02/2015 12:38

I wouldn't call these wobbles, I'd call them experiences of healing.

I too think it's important to know the truth of what you were dealing with in order to truly move on.

I have experienced similar and I do think the occasions where it was clear coercion but no outright 'no', just the moving of hands, the "I'm tired", stony faced and stiff body occasions, all being done knowing that there would be consequences if there was an outright 'get off me now', are difficult to get your head round.
I still now sometimes get triggered by rape apologists who say that's not rape.

I've found part of the process is just allowing yourself to explore your feelings. How YOU felt. It doesn't really matter what the law says really, not for your own healing.

Learning to trust yourself then becomes your greatest weapon for moving safely into the future.

You'll be great.

Original poster

snowflake02 · 10/02/2015 12:47

Thank you everyone. LadyBlaBlah I'm sorry you experienced similar. Very wise words, I will try to remember them. I'm still worried people won't believe me I think, which is why I'm trying to define what happened.

OP posts:

LadyBlaBlah · 10/02/2015 13:03

It's really hard about people not believing you. I experienced that too and yes, it really really hurts.

But I also know now after the initial hurt subsides, I KNOW what happened. And I think the process you are going through right now is making sure YOU have got it right, that you are telling yourself the truth.

Then it doesn't really matter what anyone else thinks.
In fact, I think I just feel disappointed if someone doesn't believe me now. Which is different to the initial hurt I felt when I perhaps wasn't so sure myself and needed validation from elsewhere.

You'll get through this stronger, I can tell

LoisPuddingLane · 10/02/2015 13:09

I find, 30 years after my attack, that I talk about it only very rarely and then only to people who've been through similar things. It never goes away, but - this sounds weird - when I find someone to talk to about it now, it almost feels good to share it. It's sort of a relief to talk with someone who has experienced similar. Those who try to "talk it down" or just don't believe you - don't bother with them. I remember, in the days after my attack, someone saying to me "just treat it as a bad sexual experience and move on". For fuck sake...

You don't move on from it, but you grow around it, as if it were a splinter.

Original poster

snowflake02 · 10/02/2015 13:27

Don't think that sounds weird at all LoisPuddingLane. I'm sorry for what you have been through and for the unhelpful people.

OP posts:

LoisPuddingLane · 10/02/2015 13:34

Oh it was a long long time ago. But thank you. You look after yourself.

pocketsaviour · 10/02/2015 13:51

bad sexual experience

This kind of crap makes me really angry. I try to look at it like it's either:

They have never been assaulted or felt threatened by assault, and are blissfully unaware how traumatising an assault is. Hooray for them. I shouldn't be bitter, I should be glad that at least one person isn't a victim.

or,

They have been a victim of rape or sexual assault and have a huge amount invested in telling themselves that "nothing really happened, it was just a bad sexual experience". They're basically going "La la la can't hear you."

Neither of these scenarios make it okay for anyone to say that - however they help me keep calm and not feel paralysingly angry and bitter.

Snowflake, this question of "did I make it clear that I didn't consent? Am I at fault? Was it really rape?" can be very common thing that survivors torture ourselves with. Unless you are taking your attacker to court, the legal definition is irrelevant. What is relevant is how that made you feel, and do you think it was acceptable behaviour to do to someone else.

If you are in a relationship with someone you love and you feel horny but they don't, would you continue trying to have sex with them after they had said "I want to sleep" and removed your hands from their body? Would you ignore their words and continue touching them even though it was clear that they didn't want it? If you got them erect (easy enough - it's a physiological response and not connected to whether a man "really wants it") would you then climb on top of them? Would you ignore their closed eyes or lack of eye contact, their complete silence, their clearly upset facial expression? Would you continue riding them until you climaxed, and then climb off without a word of apology, or perhaps saying something like "See I knew you wanted it really"?

Many of us have been raised to think of rape as something that involves physical force, something that leaves you bruised and battered with clear physical injuries. We think that it doesn't "count" somehow unless you come out with a black eye. Or we blame ourselves and say things like "If I really hadn't wanted it I would have fought." This completely ignores the dynamic of fear and control that are at play in any relationship where a rape is likely to happen.

Sex without consent is rape. Anyone who would "have sex" with you when it was clear by your body language that you didn't want it, is a rapist. Who the hell wants sex with someone who doesn't want it?

LoisPuddingLane · 10/02/2015 14:06

My father maintained staunchly that rape was not possible. He said that a man needed one hand free, so a woman could not possibly be held down. Often I felt like saying: what if you've been threatened with being killed? Because believe me, that's enough to make you lie still. If my own father would not have believed or defended me, it was unsurprising that I told few people.

LoisPuddingLane · 10/02/2015 14:12

Sorry, didn't mean to turn this into me me me.

What pocketsaviour says is absolutely right.

Original poster

snowflake02 · 10/02/2015 15:06

pocketsaviour some if what you wrote was very hard to read because you have hit the nail on the head. They are hard to acknowledge and accept but I needed to hear it, thank you.

OP posts:

pocketsaviour · 10/02/2015 15:28

snowflake you will get through this. It will be tough, but you will come out the other side stronger. Reach out for help when you start to doubt yourself.

Lois your dad sounds like a twat. What a thing to say, jesus. Daily Mail reader? I'm sorry you felt so unsupported at the time.

alphabook · 10/02/2015 15:44

Absolutely what pocketsaviour said. Grown adults (unless they have a social disability like autism) are able to read body language, and it is as clear as day when someone's body language is saying they don't want to do something. If you didn't want to do it and said no either verbally or through body language then any reasonable person would stop. To carry on regardless knowing you didn't want to have sex with him is rape.

Original poster

snowflake02 · 10/02/2015 16:12

LoisPuddingLane what an awful thing for your father to say.

alphabook I just worry that I wasn't clear enough, even though I know it should be fairly easy to spot if someone doesn't want to.

OP posts:

LoisPuddingLane · 10/02/2015 18:32

My dad was, indeed, a twat. Although not a Mail reading one.

alphabook · 10/02/2015 20:45

As pocketsaviour said, if it had been the other way round, you'd initiated sex and he was saying no and pushing your hands away would you have carried on? I wouldn't. My DH wouldn't. I dont know any reasonable person who would. It is absolutely clear that if someone reacts in that way to a sexual advance they do not want to have sex with you.

alphabook · 10/02/2015 20:47

Do you think there's any reasonable chance that when you were saying no and pushing his hands away he didn't get that you weren't into it?

Original poster

snowflake02 · 10/02/2015 21:42

No, I would not have carried on, I would have stopped immediately. I think I was fairly clear, but some men seem to take it as a challenge to change your mind maybe?

OP posts:

Jux · 10/02/2015 21:54

I believe you.

From what you've said here, it seems pretty clear to me that you didn't want sex. Your p/h just chose to ignore you. He is a rapist.

I'm so sorry you went through this. I hope you're safe now.

Summerbreezer · 10/02/2015 22:42

snowflake, most men would not dream of having sex with a woman who was in any way reluctant.

My DP once said that he could not imagine being able to maintain an erection if he thought his partner was anything other than an active participant. For most men - men with a healthy attitude to sex - it is inconceivable that they would have sex with you in this situation.

Can I ask if you have reported your rape? It may help you move forward, even if no action is taken. Although obviously it is a major step.

alphabook · 10/02/2015 22:53

I agree that some men don't take no for an answer and see it as a "challenge". But those men are rapists, even if they deny that that is what they are. No means no, sexual coercion is rape.

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