How do I get married?

[Orrla]

NC for this. Basically, DP and I got engaged 18 months ago. We have been living together for over a decade and have one toddler DC. Even before we got the ring resized, certain family members began to dictate what kind of wedding we should have.

We both come from the same faith background, both mothers would be quite religious, but DP and I are not. We have never attended Sunday services or anything that was outside of christening/ church weddings/ funerals. I would go as far as to say that we are pretty much atheist. For me, it’s gone further in that the very religion repulses me now because of recent church scandals.

Our preference would be to have a simple civil ceremony, with a nice meal afterwards. The mothers, however wanted a religious service. His mum was quite vocal about it to the point of blindsiding me in my own home to lecture me about religion, which I did NOT appreciate. As a result, my mum did a u-turn (not seeing the irony) annoyed that FMIL has a nerve to dictate to me what kind of wedding I should have. DM is now happy to go along with my preferences. DP on the other hand wants a church ceremony to appease his DM. He feels that ‘it will always be the elephant in the room that she will be terribly upset about for years to come. In a way, if either of us had any residual faith it would be so much easier to go with the flow, and it never would have been an issue.

I suspect there is a bit of FOG there with DP and FMIL. I don’t know too much about FOG, but I’ve seen her once or twice shed tears in order to (I feel) manipulate a situation to her preference, and certainly have seen her children go to great lengths to avoid upsetting her. Other than that, she is quite a nice woman, we got on very well for over a decade until this happened.

It would feel wrong for me to stand up in a church I hate, saying words I don’t believe in order to marry. But I’d do it if DP was religious and a religious ceremony was meaningful for him, but to do that to appease someone who is hugely unappreciative of how hard it would be for me to do is stomach churning to think of. To clarify, we are in our forties, and would be paying for this entirely ourselves.

So we are at a stalemate, DP and I. I need suggestions and advice.

I dont see one good reason not to have the wedding you have.

This has nothing to do with either of your parents.
In days gone by the parents would be paying for the wedding, and therefore dictate where it was and who is invited. But if you're paying, then nah sorry, they have no say at all.
Would you consider eloping? I've always wanted to elope.

I dont see one good reason not to have the wedding you have.

I don't either. I don't believe that at our age, we should capitulate to what our parents want.

But right now, to avoid upsetting her and therefore causing discord among the wider family, DP wants to go along with a church wedding.

And apart from how I feel about this religion, it really grates that we would have to spend about treble the money which we don't have for a church wedding.

I feel frustrated on your behalf that your dp seems more concerned about making sure his mother rather than his future wife has the wedding she would like! I think you need to have firm and clear words with dp.
My own mil is a highly manipulative woman, we made compromises re our own wedding to appease her (but not big decisions like your dp seems to be considering).
In our case it backfired as you can never go on pleasing another adult forever. Years later I had to say no to her over something else (after years of allowing her to manipulate us) and it was worse because we had given way over so many other issues down the years.

You're grownups, you're paying, you do what you want and everybody else pulls themselves together.

Absolutely your partner must grow a pair. And you must stand your ground.

If he was marrying his mother, they could agree on church wedding. As he's marrying you what his mother wants is irrelevant.

OP, you and your DP need to accept the First Truth of Weddings which is this: Whatever you choose will offend somebody. There is no way of avoiding it. You need to come to terms with that right now - because you will need to be strong together and ride out a multitude of conflicts like this, because they will crop up with every detail unless you are firm.

However, here comes the good news: you have the strongest possible backup, in the shape of the fact that it is YOUR DAY! All you need to say (very calmly) in answer to any questions is: 'It's our day, and this is our choice, and we ask you to respect that'. There may be some emotional manipulation or some anger coming back at you, but this is an important moment of assertion for you as a couple: you are saying: 'We are adults, we have chosen this, and you need to accept it'. (NB You need not to accept any money from other people to pay for the day too, and don't ask their advice and input either!)

Your DM has had her wedding, her way - how would she have felt if someone had told her that she had to have a Hindu ceremony, or a humanist one? This is not about selfishness, it's about principle and the space to carve out your own niche in the world. It would be utterly wrong for you to get up and make the most solemn promise of your entire life in a religious context that is not fitting for you. You can't live your lives together through other peoples' eyes, or you will become very inauthentic and unhappy. It would be awful to start your marriage that way!

Would a blessing be a possible compromise (not saying it would be, I think it could be done in a low key way), however my strongest advice is to stick up for yourself and your wishes.
To be brutally honest, if my dp was really insistent on going to any lengths to appease his mother, I would be questioning if it was wise to marry him.

As a Christian myself, I really don't think you should have a church wedding if you and DP don't want it. I still feel uncomfortable about two vocal atheist friends of mine who ended up with a church wedding because the town hall (before you could get married elsewhere) was too small to accommodate their family. I spent the whole ceremony thinking "well I know you don't believe those words you gave just said about your belief so how can I believe the promises you have made to each other?"

Tell DP he needs to stand up to her. Tell her it would make the ceremony less meaningful for you. Mention having a small registry office wedding with just you two, kids and two witnesses as an alternative. Just don't give in. The wedding is about you two and your kids, not about her.

Your problem is your DP, sadly.

Tell him, straight: what is more important - that your WIFE have her preferences come first at HER OWN wedding, or that his mother gets hers?

If he waffles- tell him, marry your mother then.

Really, it is in your best interests to be firm here. Otherwise you are opening the gates to endless manipulations over EVERYTHING.

Repeat: it's my wedding, I will do what I want to do, or it will not go ahead, or, we will get married without you there.

Hubert Eloping is tempting.

I'm very close to my family and quite close to the rest of the in-laws too, and would like to share our day with them. I'd resent me missing them because one person stuck their oar in.

And even if we did elope, unless we have a priest marry us in the faith when eloping, FMIL would still have a massive issue with it and so in that regard, eloping is pointless.

Oh, and as for the religious element - snort - you've been living together a decade, you have a child, and your FMIL is making a fuss about respecting religious tradition? Excuse me while I wipe up the coffee I just snorted all over the laptop!!!

I know 2 couples who got married so "privately" that their mothers were not even invited to the ceremonies! Yet everyone still speaks to everyone. So bear that in mind - you could easily get married without even inviting DMIL. So anything up from that is an improvement, right! Have the wedding YOU want, this is about YOU and DH. Don't get married in a church.

Who cares if they have an issue with it? You just have to be very firm with them.

Would it help if you and your partner could write down a list of what your ideal day would look like including practical elements (eg geographic location)and emotional elements (eg relaxed, intimate vs mega bash, key people to invite etc). You can then work from that list of positives to together plan your day rather than grapple directly with this thorny issue? Eg if your primary requirement is simplicity and being relaxed he might recognise this (in your case) is incompatible to a more formal religious ceremony? Also if he was clearer to you about what HE wants rather than his relatives, it might be easier for you to compromise on some aspects too.

In summary, try to forget the strife, have a chat and get excited together about why you are getting married in the first place!

What does FOG mean?

I assumed you were in your 20s reading your post. No way in hell should you marry in a church to appease your MIL. I was shocked to read that you're in your 40s. I can't believe there are people out there dictating to their 40 year old children what sort of wedding they should have! The mind boggles.

Anyway, I'm afraid to say that your fiance needs to grow a backbone. As a 40 year old man he shouldn't be afraid to stand up to his mother over this. So what if she gets huffy over it? Let her. As his future wife, YOU should be his priority not his bloody mother (especially as a middle aged man!) and he should be bending over backwards to make sure you're not uncomfortable on YOUR wedding day. I think you need to point out to her that you're not exactly a blushing virgin bride, you've lived together for yonks and have a child FGS so getting married in some super duper religious ceremony would be very hypocritical. Did she get her knickers in a twist over that or did she not care? Because if she didn't then she is the epitome of hypocrisy.

Does your fiance have a history of going along with mummy to keep her happy? You don't want to start a marriage based on that, once she realises she's 'won' she'll carry on doing things like this. Please, for the love of god, don't let her. Tell your fiance that it will be a civil ceremony or nothing (well you don't have to but that's what I'd be saying). In fact, I'd be fuming with him over this. He's more concerned about upsetting his mother than his fiancee? That is some fucked up priorities. You know what, she probably will be upset and throw a tantrum but she'll get over it. You'll have to live with knowing that you started off your marriage doing something that made you very uncomfortable and that is wrong, full stop. What about the potential upset for years to come that it will cause you? It sounds like someone needs to stand up to her. I'm absolutely enraged on your behalf here! If your fiance is unwilling to do so for you I'd be seriously questioning whether I wanted to marry him. Harsh perhaps but I can't stand crap like this.

FOG = Fear Obligation Guilt. Lots of Mumsnet DHs have it!

My parents eloped when I was 14.
Us kids went off on our annual weeks holiday with the grandparents and they used that time to sneak off and get married in Oxford.
They told us and their parents about 6 months later. We all still get on and talk to each other. Although I do threaten joke that they won't be invited to mine as punishment.

Here's my simple, short but strong advice ....

Do what you want. Show you're grown-ups that know your own mind and can be united. Life is short. She'll soon get over it.

Then put your energies into planning something creative and positive that reflects your own personalities, it will be much more meaningful and happier for everyone, especially for both of you x Also there are many more possibilities for lovely civil weddings in beautiful places and nice registry offices too than there once were

Plan the wedding you want. Tell no-one until it's arranged, booked and paid for. Let DP deal with the fall out if he tells his mother. She had her wedding, this is yours.
BTW I had a church wedding and only 30 guests. It was deliberately kept small. MIL would have guided us to invite 200+ as she comes from a big family.

onepieceoflollipop. Agreed. The problem is him. And I also feel that if I were to back down and have a church wedding, there would be other things then that I'll be expected to add in so it would make it 'proper' And I did broach the subject of doing a civil ceremony now, with a church blessing TBA which would happen over my dead body I have to say, I think I almost swayed him with that. Almost.

shovetheholly & Twinklestien - I do feel that we should be doing what pleases us. We are grown up's and it feels faintly ridiculous to be tip-toeing around parents when we are parents ourselves!

alimonkey I even went as far as to have a chat with the priest in our locality. A lovely man who suggested similar - that we should go with what we want, however he did acknowledge family can be difficult. But he did tell me that he would be happy to come up with a service that was as secular as possible if we felt we had to have a church wedding. It just feels hypocritical of me.

TheyLearnedFromBrian I think if we continued unmarried as we are, he'd be ok with that. But I'm not. I worry about next-of-kin issues and the fact that in Irish law (where we live) he is legally a stranger to our DC. That their NOK is my mother.

Excellent post from Shovetheholly. In the end this is your day. I'm all for small compromises to keep family happy but your MIL is proposing a wedding that sickens you. Have a gentle but honest conversation with your DH, point out that your MIL had her wedding and that this wedding does not reflect who you are. If you wanted to make a gesture you could ask a priest to bless you but I wouldn't feel obliged.

I think you might be Irish op.

I am too. My Daunties still say (nearly 6 years later and together 20 years) "sure you'll have a wee blessing"

Nope. I won't. I'm atheist. And I don't see why I would stand up and lie to people I love not happening. X

I'm guessing his parents are Catholic, as that is the branch of Christianity that doesn't accept civil weddings as a valid marriage under Canon Law, and that is why they kick up a fuss. You won't be married, in her eyes, or the eyes of the Church. But having lived together and having children together isn't exactly following the church rules either - perhaps you could point that out.

A blessing might be a compromise but I think generally there's still one of the couple who has a faith, otherwise why would you be bothering. I don't know if Catholic churches do blessings - they do a ceremony that converts a civil marriage into a Catholic one, but that's more for people who later convert to Catholicism. And in my experience blessings can get a bit nasty, depending on the church. I went to one where the non-religious half of the couple got a huge lecture from the priest and got 'prayed for that they come to know Christ' and crap like that, there was no respect for their lack of belief.

Does she know you are now both atheist? I suspect DPs been chickening out of telling her. Or she may not care anyway, she still may want you to have a church marriage. But then of course, your vows would be lies, so then you could say YOU would consider your marriage not a real one.

But I doubt you are going to come to any amicable agreement from her over this.

DP needs to man up and put his own beliefs and his future wife's beliefs and wedding plans first. His Mum can no longer be the number one woman in his life. She doesn't have any say at all in your wedding. If she chooses to not support it, or recognise it, it's her loss.

I would be saying to DP - I DON'T want to get married in the church. Worrying about upsetting his mother is missing the point - it is upsetting YOU and it is your wedding.

He is committing to you and not to his mother - so the two people who need to be content with the process are you and he. If his only reason for the church is his mother, then your wishes top that by a large margin.