Can emotional abusers ever change?

[yougotafriend]

Background - left an EA marriage a couple of months ago after 23 years together.

Im OK and realising how permanaently on edge I was as I'm relaxed in my new home. I have good days and not so good days, more about being uncertain of the future though than regretting leaving the past behind me.

I came home yesterday to a 3 page letter from H about how he believes we still a future together (we don't) and how he is going for counselling so he can change and win bully me back (he won't).

So it got me to thinking if anyone out there has turned an EA relationship around? and if so how does the "victim" learn to trust that the abuser won't revert to type?

It is way too soon for me to consider another relationship but I do think my perception of the dynamics is so messed up, I have no idea how a healthy relationship works. How do I learn to trust that someone else wouldn't try to control me in the same way?

It is hard enough to change even one aspect of your own behaviour; hoping or expecting that someone else will do so is an exercise in futility. Such men like the man you describe feel entitled to do this; his behaviour is deeply ingrained and likely learnt from his own parents example of a relationship. That type of stuff is rarely, if ever, undone. These types of relationships too are broken and cannot be "fixed"or "turned around". These men too hate women, all of them and any woman cannot heal them by trying to love them better.

Ignore his letter and do not respond at all to it; this man will do and say anything to get you back (hence the I think we have a future and I'm going to counselling shtick from him) because such men do not like letting go of their victims easily. He likes the power and control he had over you. He has also still not accepted any responsibility for his actions and will not either. Such men do not change.

If you have not already looked at it, I would suggest you look at Womens Aid's Freedom Programme as this is specifically for women who have been in abusive relationships.

Love your own self for a change and work on rebuilding your own life, self esteem and self worth; it has come in for a heck of a battering from him and it will take time, perhaps even years, to fully recover from.

Everything I have read says that abusers don't change. They try everything to get their ex back under their control and if they don't manage it they move on to abuse and control someone else. As for trusting someone new. I am trying to do that at the moment. I am on guard somewhat watching their behaviour to see if their are any signs of EA. But I am also trying to go slow as i think there may be a tendency to be too guarded. I want to get to know him as he is and think there have been times when he's made little errors (as have I) and I think, oh no is this a sign of possible future abuse? But it isn't its just normal 'getting to know you' type blips that you have to go through to build a relationship. I struggle to trust him, but I try to swallow it as I know it's my self esteem issue rather than his behaviour. Think its a case of taking it slow, building trust brick by brick, be aware of signs of abuse but take time to sit back and let things play out rather than jump to conclusions. Well done on leaving OP. Stay strong.

Thanks Attila - I've looked at the freedom programme on-line but I wasn't sure if it was for me, I struggle to think of myself as a victim and have only really come to fully understand how abusive he was since discovering MumsNet last summer (when I started taking serious steps to LTB). Previously I'd have described him as a grumpy/sulky old man with a jealous streak.

I don't want him to change for me - but he is someone I loved for a long time and I'd like to think he can change so he can be happy with himself in the future.

I have replied to the letter though - I'm way too polite to ignore it. However, there is no ambiguity in it and I haven't re-hashed any specific incidents - just been clear that I don't love him anymore and that my future is for me to decide and I've decided that it's not with him.

I am taking my time - relaxing into living alone for the first time ever, relishing the little things I can do now that I know would have caused a major sulk - life is simple and quiet but easy going and that's the best feeling ever.

Short answer: no.

You're only a couple months out and still very vulnerable. You know that you didn't need to read his 3-page letter at all, right?

How can you protect yourself from him continuing to try to manipulate you?

The letter in itself is a sign that he certainly won't change: You're leaving him because he's a manipulator. Him using manipulative tactics to convince you to do what he wants is, uhm, hardly an apt demonstration that "he can change", now, is it?

fluffy did you do teh Freedom Programme?

x-post

aaaarrrrgh don't engage!
It doesn't matter what your response to him said: the only message he's going to get from it is "Oh goody, she replied: she's still hooked."

What are you going to do with his next message, when it comes? His next attempt to phone, text, write, or see you in person?

OMG goats you're spot on there....and there's me thinking how far I've come but didn't see it at all.... I was furious reading his letter, just the arrogance of the man to think that changing now (though that's clearly not psossilbe fromt he replies) after so many years of hurting me would encourage me to change my mind!!! as if!!!

His letter said that I've been giving mixed signals - don't know how as I don't reply to his texts unless he specifically needs some information from me - so I thought sending one back that is straight to the point might help....am I deluded?

That's why it's better to just block, delete, ignore.

Seriously: the only way to handle a manipulative person is not to engage.

Don't read anything they send.
Don't engage in a dialogue.
Don't send them any messages of your own, because they just say that as the relationship continuing (cause you're still engaging).

Block. Delete. Ignore.

I think people can, but very very rarely. 1) they have to WANT to and then 2) they have to be -able- to. Most don't wnat to because being abusive works for them. A few do. Of those, I think most have to really find help and guidance as to how to break the patterns of behaviour ... once they realise what they are. A very very few can do it on their own.

It can take years before someone has laid down deep enough patterns of decent behaviour to be trusted in a relationship. 2 months is FAR too short a time.

In your situation, I think that if your ex wants to stop being abusive, he needs to change his behaviour so that he's better in a future relationship with someone else. He needs to be without a relationship for a long time and to really work on himself.

You would be very unlikely to be the right person for him to change with becuse the power of habit is very strong indeed and he would, without any doubt, find himself falling back into old patterns even if he didn't want to. You too might find it hard to stand up to him and pick him up on every backsliding.

I think he needs to move on, to live with the regret of what he's done to you and to try to make himself a better person.

*see, not say

Replying to him gave him what he wanted from you - contact. That in itself is its own reward. Your response may have been both polite and measured but he will know that you will respond and can thus be controlled even from afar. He will surely contact you again now that this particular Pandoras box has been opened. The power and control he held over you throughout your marriage still asserts itself even now and such men do not let go at all easily.

Re this comment:-0
"I don't want him to change for me - but he is someone I loved for a long time and I'd like to think he can change so he can be happy with himself in the future".

I am wondering if your love for him was at all rooted in co-dependency.
Such men are never happy, he does not want to be bloody happy!. His idea of happiness is to belittle a woman mainly because he is himself an inadequate person.

Do look at the Freedom Programme anyway.

Bummer!! I spend 2 hours writing my reply - now I realise I can't possibly send it.....He knows I live by the "manners cost nothing" rule so wouldn't usually igonore any text/letter....I've been sucker punched AGAIN!!! Jeez this is a steep learning curve.

Atilla re: co-dependency - I don't think so (but you can see from above I'm learning new things about myself every day) I can honestly say that I have not missed him once since I left.

Yes they can change, but it is very, very, very hard, and they have to undergo a total system reboot, which means everything they ever believe about everything has to be turned upside down.

They may have to reject their own family often too, as this is where those beliefs come from. They have to remove friends, as people surround themselves with like minded folk.

As to trusting them again...hmmmm, that would be just as hard, as you will never know if they are merely being manipulative again.

The freedom programme is excellent, for abusers as well as survivors. BUT, the abuser has to choose to address their considerable stuff, themselves, willingly, and commit to long term therapy as well.

The Freedom Programme is a life changer.

Don't be too quick to label yourself co dependent. I was told that on here too. I was not and never have been....according to my very highly qualified therapist!

The problem with relationships with abusers, is the abuser.

If you don't want to do the FP yet, read Living with the Dominator by Pat Craven.

Thanks queen I'll check that book out.

Yougotafriend yes I did do the freedom programme online. It does not use the term 'victim'. Survivors is the term. I found it useful. I also read 'why does he do that' by Lundy Bancroft as recommended by mumsnetters. Both are similar in that they lay out all the different types of abusers there are. I found that my ex fitted 2 of the types to a T but didn't fit others. What's useful is for every type of man they give you the opposite guy and what qualities are healthy and supportive behaviours in a relationship. It's a tenner to log in but once you've paid that you can log in whenever you like. I found the first few weeks agony, first few months difficult but Im now 8 months on and with someone else and feel life is so much better without his dramas. Try not to engage with him. But if you do then don't beat yourself up about it. Just resolve each day to move on. Then one day you wake up and think, 'oh, I've moved on!'

Hi OP, I've been in emotionally abusive relationships with men, with my parents and with my brother. I would not consider giving an emotional abuser a second chance, not ever. When I wasn't sure about my abusive ex in the early days of our relationship, I told a friend that I wasn't sure he was worth it. Her reply has always stayed with me - 'its not about what he's worth, its about what you're worth'.

You can take all of the energy and effort and time you would spend on a relationship with him, and invest it in something else - yourself. I cannot recommend psychotherapy enough if that's something you might be interested in. Its definitely still a work in progress but I feel I'm rebuilding myself to be stronger, more resilient, prouder, happier, more peaceful, more content. And kicking the EA people out of my life has been a big part of that.

You said you haven't missed him for a second since he's been gone - hold onto that. Very tightly. That's your gut telling you you do not need him. Spend time on you - its the most rewarding work you will ever do.

Fluffy thanks for making me re-think my terminology. I'm in the process of looking into buying a laptop so maybe the online Freedom programme can be my first project.

Lotta I had counselling about 15 years ago, it was only then I realised that none of his behaviour was my problem - up until that point I had honestly thought that if I changed he'd be OK - anyway I suppose I started very slowly emotionally checking out from that point onwards, but the DC's were small so I made my decisions based on practicalities even though I knew deep down they were the wrong ones. When it came down to leaving, it wasn't nearly so traumatic for me as I'd been preparing for it emotionally for a long long time.

So now he's texting to ask if I got the letter........ Aaaarrrrgggghhhhh

Tell him that you are divorcing, that you are not prepared to discuss it any more. If he really does care for you, what you need and want is a life ahead of you that does not include him because he's done too much damage that cannot be undone. The kindest and best thing that he could do for you now is to sort out the practical details with no fuss and to leave you alone to look forward and get on with your own life and healing. He should do the same.

Further contact at any emotional level will be seen as evidence that he does not have your best interests at heart and is only going to confirm how right it was to separate.

Be careful. Counselling and the Freedom programme are probably what you need. I left an EA relationship with no regrets but fell into a pattern of dating similar guys. Even when I met DP I would put him and everyone else first. Not anymore!

I also got the 'sorry' texts. I replied with 'I want a divorce'. A few years on and he's exactly the same twat he ever was. He won't change.

meerka I pinched your reply almost verbatim...... Thanks.

He's replied straight away saying it's time to move to the next stage (we didn't have plans to divorce right away).... I guess I'll wait for the papers then, not going to reply.