Being Stupid? **V.Long**

[newdad1978]

First Post Grab a wine/beer, a dictionary and a thesaurus. It's a long one - sorry!

We have been together since 2010, and had our daughter 6 months ago. Even before she got pregnant, our sex life was on the decline. If I'm honest we didn't/don't communicate as well as we should, even though it's in both our natures to do so. I think it stems from me wanting to please her sexually and 'be the best' right from the start and her, knowing her own mind and body not being as open to trying things I liked and felt good at (and had worked well with lots of previous partners) at all.
She would say "Ow" that hurts then say I was too big, or I would try some interesting and usually orgasmic/multi-orgasmic style manipulation of her 'bits' and she would lock up and say I don't like it (in my mind before she had tried to enjoy it, but then - who am I to say she should carry on something she didn't like the sensation of even if just for a few seconds?).

Basically I have spent my whole sexually active life being an unselfish and I liked to think competent lover, always putting the girls desires and needs above my own, not entirely selflessly I admit - because it felt good to me know I was being one of the best they had had. That sounds so big-headed but seriously I'm trying to summarise quickly. I couldn't be less big-headed if I tried!

Anyway, I wasn't able to try anything new so I lost confidence quickly and realising the things she seemed to like me doing the first few times were actually more of her in pain than pleasure but because it was a new relationship she wouldn't be so rude to say so. I feel she was hard to please, critical even and she would say I was too sensitive and she was just telling me what she liked - fair enough right? I put it down to a bit of both, a slight incompatibility in that moment. I mean, I had lots of success in the past and no, I'm not so naive that I only imagined the previous women liked stuff I did :)

Okay so sex went okay on the whole. Without being experimental we settled into a niche where I went down on her (I love that so much) and she would cum very quickly with me doing that and often I'd do it multiple times for her, being gentle after she'd cum obviously the 1st time. She would do stuff for me or we would have what I call guilt-free sex. She had already cum multiple times and would probably just want me to cum at that point so on occasion we'd have quick missionary sex (she loves doggy but says it hurts too much with me...hmm!). That has been our thing for a long time now and we don't talk very much at all about it, and over the last 2 years it's gone less and less frequent. Even when planning a baby it was only when she was likely to get pregnant and of course it was perfunctory - not for real pleasure or passion.

Then during pregnancy we had sex about 3 times, and aftwerwards, so far...nothing. Now I am FINE with that. Even though I used to be basically a sex addict before I met her and would want sex multiple times a day, but in practice nearly every day at least once. I mean, it's a big thing and I would never put pressure on her to have sex until she's ready again but I'm sure you can spot the problem?
Yes, we have let ourselves get in a horrible rut. Now I feel unloved even from before the pregnancy, I feel she doesn't hold hands, sit near me or make any contact with me (again, before the pregnancy as well as now). She's distant sometimes (as are we all I know at times). I feel unattractive to her and she does nothing to reassure me otherwise. I always seem to get stuff wrong in her eyes. She trusts everyone' opinion over mine and basically years and years ago I was a jealous person but got myself counselling due to it's destructive nature and I overcame it on the whole, but lately I have felt the horrible ache of self-pity, self-loathing and resentment - which quickly turn to jealous and paranoid feelings.

I'm only pointing out the bad bits here, there are good things too, most of all our beautiful daughter who has given us 6 of the hardest months ever but very rewarding. We have been a solid team, sharing responsibility and feeds and me trying to go above the norm to help her out. In the end though again I never seem to get it right in her eyes. If I stay up til 4am covering her wake-ups and cries and then go to sleep I can't get up early so I go to work for 10am, finish at 7pm, get home for 7:30pm and then she moans I haven't seen our daughter and after a while of this she crie and wants me to change stuff. Really hard when you're trying to do stuff to the most helpful in the first place! A lot of dads on her NTC group don't even see the baby as anything to do with them until they're older or they say "I work full-time so thats my job" etc and she acknowledges that but still wants me to do more.
I'm sure she has lots of gripes with me too and that's part and parcel of a relationship. It's fucking hard and you carry all this baggage with you.

Okay so fast forward to the other night where I am feeling particularly low about how she feels about me and I take our daughter upstairs for her to have a nap. I get her to sleep and then on the bed I notice her phone...
...Yes. You guessed it. The evil jealous feelings that had been creeping up on me due to feeling unattractive, unwanted and a little bit sorry for myself just made me want to see if there was anything to see.
I've never done that to her before and only to one other person, and it was very destructive as I found something I needed answers for but could not ask. In the end I couldn't pretend I didn't know and had to confess what I'd done. Turned out she was doing something wrong (this was an ex) but even if she wasn't it would have been over due to me breaching the trust. I know this and yet I succumbed this time too Desperate is how I felt. Desperate for something to justify and explain why she seemed to not even like me a lot of the time and yet in other ways and at other times quite loving towards each other...

So here's a transcript of a message I found from one of her younger, female friends at the office (this was from back in September - when daughter was 2 months old):

FRIEND: I've got a meeting with SB on Friday morning at half 8! Who's a lucky thing? (then a smiley face with hearts in the eyes) xxx

MY GIRLFRIEND: WTF??? Well Jealous. Swooooooon. I miss him (and you) xxxx

FRIEND: Hahaaaa - we (heart) SB! I miss you more. xxx

Okay, so I've just read what is basically a text tat a lot of people might send regarding a fit co-worker. THis kind of thing happens and we all never see it but it still shocked and hurt me that my girlfriend was 'Swoooooning' and missing a guy who is fit, whilst she's not even looking at me in any way. I may sound selfish but jesus, I felt hurt (and guilty for reading it).

Anyway, the seconds thing I read pertained to my birthday which was on 10th January and we went to a shopping centre together with our daughter too. We were in John Lewis' and suddenly my girlfriend blushed like mad, and a guy talking in the same Northeast accent as her walked up with his kids and talked in front of me with her (with her blushing the whole time awkwardly). It was only a quick impromptu stop-and-chat of 30 seconds or so, but long enough that I should have been mentioned or adressed in some way I think? She seemed very odd after it. I showed no emotion of course, my jealousy wasn't firing up so much a few weeks ago, although in truth I had clocked all the signs there. Her blushing, him being nonchalant to me like I didn't exist or wasn't important and her nonchalance aftwerwards. I didn't push her to explain the blushing etc as I blush sometimes too, even just for slightly awkward social things like that...so we got on with our day...

Okay so the second thing I read was from THAT DAY. In fact it was JUST AFTER that happened (probably when we were briefly separated in Boots).

MY GIRLFRIEND: I just bumped into SB at the shopping centre! Jealous? Ha x

FRIEND: I was there yesterday & I bumped into (a less attractive man I assume)! 100% Jealous! x

MY GIRLFRIEND: I actually blushed when he talked to me!! X

FRIEND: (two crying-with-laughter smileys) Aww you cutie! X

My GIRLFRIEND: David (Me) is with me! I avoided discussing why I was blushing! X

FRIEND: Oh noo!! I'll keep your dirty secret don't worry (winky smiley) x

Okay so that was on my birthday, out as a family talking about the same guy from the first message. I felt sick. There was nothing in there that said she had acted on anything, just kind of lustful banter between two mates towards a guy. Now, this guy was about 50 and yeah a smart and young-ish 50 but jesus he was no George Clooney or anything and that made me feel WORSE about myself. HE's the COMPETITION?"! She lusts over HIM?! FUCK, things are worse than I thought.
Also, is the 'dirty secret' just that she is blushing cos they fancy him...or is it that there's more to this than I know?.

So, I'd paid the ultimate price for my betrayal of trust, snooping etc. Id spotted something that didn't prove anything but made me feel ten times worse and I could never say anything to her about. My mood went down ten notches and now I can't hide it from her. Felt sick all today, tried to be normal tonight but i came to a head when she wouldn't stop asking me to talk to her. We talked and of course I didn't mention snooping but I did question her about why she blushed to that random guy the other day and why I wasn't introduced etc. I didn't make a big deal about it, as if it was just an example. I watched her closely as I said that years ago, that would have been a red flag for me and I would have obsessed over that encounter and be convinced there was 'something' there, whether it a harmless crush, a bit of history or a full-blown affair. Something. Her face didn't give much away but I bet she was thinking "WTF?, is he psychic?!" Of curse she said it's cos he's a VP, quite senior at her work and doesn't know him very well and she felt awkward and they weren't talking long enough to introduce us... All plausible but with my snooping antics I knew there was MUCH mroe to it than that. Found it so disrespectful when she's out with me on my birthday to be texting her mate over a guy she has the hots for who was in front of me too. I dunno. But then - I snooped so that's disrespectful.

So we agreed we need to get our communication back on track, our sex life needs a major, major boost where we talk and take criticism and all that but our daughter woke up before we could finish talking and it's still unresolved really, and I feel sick to the stomach still over this knowledge I have that she doesn't know I know!
Can I live with knowing it? What about work outings and parties. Am I gonna be able to not worry?! Have I just fucked myself (and us) big-time by having a momentary lapse back to my old destructive jealous ways? I think I have a fight on my hands to tell you the truth.

I love her, I love our child and I think that's bigger than most things.
However, I'm always going to wonder if she's done more than just admire him. How do I stop myself thinking about this and really trying to mend the relationship?

Sorry for the epic, boring, schizophrenic ranting and no doubt awful grammar etc. Kind of venting here and it's hard to describe 4 years + of a relationship so quickly. There are lots of good in between all this shite too!

Any opinions are welcome. Try not to bash me too hard (I'm expecting it), my actions were out of me feeling pathetic and I hope you see that.
I'm kinda interested in opinions on what she has said in the texts and all that really. Am I right to be worried, or does it read quite harmlessly to people who have no emotional entanglement?

Thanks,
D

OK, first of all, I'd say that her not wanting sex since the birth of your DD isn't that abnormal - she's only 6mo, still probably a lot of demand on your DP (and you) - when babies are that small, quite often your body doesn't feel your own, especially if you're breastfeeding, and you're tireder than you can ever remember and quite frankly the only thing you want to do in bed is sleep.
Also, hormonally, libido can drop through the floor.

So - it may not be to do with whether or not she fancies you.

Second - you might not think you're pressuring her for sex, and I believe you believe you're not, but she might be worried that any intimate contact between you might lead you to think she's ready for sex - and she might not be.

These are all suppositions, of course.

Re. the simpering, blushing, swooning, texting nonsense - I would say it's just that. She has a crush on her boss (or one of them) - that to me would = a "dirty little secret" without anything else being involved! Not something you'd want people at work to know, if you see what I mean.

Crushes don't mean much in the grand scheme of things, unless people make the mistake of acting on them. A huge proportion of people have a crush on various hot Hollywood actors, but it means nothing in terms of daily life.

It was rude of her not to have said "oh this is my DP Dave" when she was out with you and met him, if you were standing right there, but perhaps her blushy simpering bereft her of any sense?

All in all, I don't honestly think she's having an affair, or likely to have one, with this SB bloke - but it's safer for her to have a crush, like a teenager (and her texts, and her friend's texts, sound like teens to me) than to have to engage with actual physical contact with you, her DP.

Another aspect to consider - how does she feel about her post-pg body? Is she worried about saggy bits, stretch marks, did she tear in delivery, did she have a CS? All these things can affect how SHE feels about her body, and she might project those onto you, thinking that YOU will think them ugly/disgusting/offputting etc.

As to what you do now - I don't think anything is to be achieved by you confessing to having snooped. It IS a low act, it IS an invasion of privacy etc. but it's also what most MNers recommend that women who fear they're being cheated on should do. No worse for you to have done it.
You haven't found concrete evidence, only texts between colleagues/friends who are joining in teen talk over a senior colleague. Not worth confronting her any more than you already have, unless you have more concrete evidence.

So - yes, live with the fact that you snooped, live with the knowledge that your DP has a crush on someone, get over it, and TALK more to her about how SHE feels things are - not about the sex, but about how she feels about herself. See what you can find out - and then be patient.

Oh I just ignore all of that as grandstanding, Fab

FabULouse:
Why would I need a dictionary or thesaurus to read the details of what you like to do in the bedroom? confused

Oh no, I meant for the terrible spelling and grammar (I didn't proof-read. It was just off-the-cuff typing). Was saying that you may need one to decipher what I may mean by some of the words or half-words!

Thumbwitch

Thanks for your take on it, appreciate it. I take on-board some of the points you make, but obviously there are things I already know too. I know you are doubtful about my lack of pressure on her, but that couldn't be further from it. She doesn't feel any pressure from me cos there isn't at all. Our problem is sex is not talked about due to the conflicting, horrible emotions attached to it so it's easier not to face it I think for us both and seeing as we found stuff we did like without having to talk about it - we just did that instead. Not healthy and no good for long-term.
I've been so upset leading up to this. I've missed her for a long time. I've missed the intimacy of holding hands and cuddling up. Most of all I've missed seeing the signs of love and care. The little looks, the brushing past each other, just being nurturing and caring toward each other beyond the perfunctory 'roles' we have. I'm not a Neanderthal and am quite intuitive and definitely sensitive to others thoughts and feelings, as I am my own. I don't demand sex, or even subconsciously put pressure on for sex. It's not even about the sex at the moment as I tried to explain, it's bigger than that and starts with caring about each other and getting back on that track which will naturally lead to being hopefully happy enough to be intimate and enjoy it all.

Anyway, I'm gonna try and forget the stuff I read. It is most likely harmless as you say, and I can't do anything about it anyway unless I go down a dark, dark path. I just hope when we are back on the right path together that I don't let this prior knowledge cause any issues that she won't understand where they are coming from...
That's my penance I guess for being a dick in that regard.

Oh and by the way I wasn't boasting, grandstanding, show-boating or whatever in my description of our sexual stuff. I was trying to provide background for our sex-life and that was just the truth. My point was I'd always felt confident in my abilities and although we've all had sexual encounters with people whereit's like two bricks rubbing up against each other with no 'in-sync' stuff going on and no chemistry, but on the whole I'd had enough happy and fulfilling (for both of us!) relationships to be able to say I was 'competent' and caring, thoughtful etc
Which was doubly frustrating why we seemed to click at first, then realised maybe we didn't then all the negative feelings etc and then no communication. All very annoying that I'd found this person I really liked and then loved, but there was an element which would affect all others which wasn't right. Typical!

I feel positive today after our chat. I have to try and rekindle our love for each other, and let her know how important she is to me.
Thanks

I'm sure she'd love to know that you've posted the intimate details of her sex life on here. Very loving.

I think what your P has said in those messages isn't very respectful to you. However, I don't think there is anything in it. If there were, I don't think this other guy would have stopped to talk like he did - they would have avoided one another if they were guilty about something (in my opinion!). I'm not sure what I would do about reading the texts. I think I would explain why I had read them and tell her what you read in a calm way, and ask to talk about it. But obviously that might not be the right choice for you, depending on your past/what has happened before with you in that respect.

The actual messages, however, sound like women-banter and something that I know many of myfreinds d/say when we are out in a group and it means nothing. Plus, when it's a colleague like that, it's something to talk and joke about at work - there's rarely anything in it, and it sounds like your P's friend also thinks he's attractive so even more reason to think of it as just girlie chat and ntohing more!

Lois:

Thanks for the opinion. I don't remember saying her name, or my real name or in fact anything that can be traced back so I could be talking about anyone really couldn't I? This is supposed to be about getting advice. How can you do that without putting things in context?

Annabelflies:

Thanks for that. Very useful advice and a good insight into what I was already leaning towards anyway - that it was just banter.
Thx

I think you can ask for advice without telling us how many orgasms she had when you did such-and-such.

Ye gods, Lois. It's an anonymous forum and he can type pretty much what he wants. Don't read/respond if it offends you.

OP, you are right that communication is key here. Slowly, calmly, little and often, discuss feelings, emotions, hopes and wishes.... good luck.

Okay, summarising (because frankly I'm with Lois on this one, I just did not need that level of detail, nor did you need to include it to make your point), you like loads of different things, she finds a small, straightforward repertoire of things work perfectly fine for her. It's like the difference between one person liking cordon-bleu cookery and the other liking plain home cooking. Nothing wrong with either of your tastes, just a mismatch. Of course it's not as simple as that when it comes to sex, because sex comes with such complex emotional overtones and very personal feelings (and feelings about person hood and one's worth to the other person).

Now, with the benefit of hindsight, perhaps it would have been better to recognise your sexual incompatibility early on. But now you have a child, and I presume, love one another (you say you love her, but I think you're unsettled by the text messages) you have to find a way forward. One thing worth thinking about from her point of view: someone with the "good plain home cooking attitude" to sex may find your outlook uncomfortably performative, almost as though suddenly there's an imaginary panel of olympic judges holding up score cards for artistic impression and technical merit at the end of every session. You need to do something to mitigate that. And I think possibly you could benefit from seeing a counsellor (note, not one who specialises in sexual counselling, because that will only load more pressure onto your partner to "perform", but one who will help both of you understand what it is emotionally that you're expecting from sex).

Maybe you are shit in bed?

Of course he can type what he wants. And I can respond as I want. I don't take offence that easily, by the way.

Oh god you sound hard work.

OK, here's the advice then: stop concentrating on being the Great Lover. Although you say you want to be the best she's had, that doesn't really seem to be about her. And perhaps she feels pressured by all your techniques and stuff that worked before/worked with other women. How about being more relaxed?

I suspect the silly crush at work is just that. And because he isn't trying to give her millions of orgasms because he's The Best Lover, perhaps it's easier to crush on him.

I agree that you sound quite hard work and, despite your protests, quite big-headed.

What a Prince among men. You snooped, you found something. Bummer.

If you are half as waffly in rl as on here I'd have stopped communicating with you too

You do sound hard work and it's off-putting. Try chilling out and just getting back to chatting as friends with your gf. Forget about the sex life for now, that will come when everything else is good.

For what it's worth, women don't always want loads of orgasms, or the feeling that their lover/bloke/husband is Being the Best a Man can Be.

I read this a thought, you're just fucking her, where's the love?

You say you've hurt her in the past. You say you want to do the things you feel you're good at. You talk a lot about technique.

Here's the thing, your having sex, she wants to be made love to and feel cherished, not seen as an experiment where you can be brilliant!

At what point have you actually considered her needs in this?

She shouldn't have to tell you something hurts, you ought to be watching her reactions and adjusting what you're doing to please her. If she's not enthusiastic, you're not doing it right. She won't have been enthusiastic about being hurt, she'd have tensed and been less open to you. How could you not see that if you're that great lover you think you are?

So my take on this is that you're not open to her needs, tastes and desires as much as you should be.

Why would any woman be in a rush to return to a sex life of not being in control, of being fucked, hurt and not having a lover who can read what they like and what they don't.

Having said all that, this doesn't excuse meeting up with another man. If she can't fix things with you she ought to get out and then flirt with others.

This:

If you are half as waffly in rl as on here I'd have stopped communicating with you too hmm

And this:

For what it's worth, women don't always want loads of orgasms, or the feeling that their lover/bloke/husband is Being the Best a Man can Be.

And also this:

Oh god you sound hard work.

Really, communication is key here. 95% of what you write in your OP is irrelevant waffle. Maybe your partner likes it simple - in the bedroom, and life in general.

I also think you are quite proud of your allegedly big dick. It really CAN hurt in doggy with a big - or at least long - dick. So do something that doesn't hurt. A big dick is no more something to be proud of than a big hand.

I'm sorry, those first few paragraphs are beyond hilarious. If you lack the maturity to understand that your perceived sexual prowess has nothing to do with whether she does or doesn't want sex then it is no wonder she is feeling a drop in libido.

Quite frankly mate, I couldn't be bothered. You sound like you were putting her under tremendous pressure to perform all kinds of things that she made very clear she didn't want. You then pretend you were doing this FOR HER and she was in the wrong for not wanting to try these so called "multi-orgasmic" experiences.

Honestly I laughed out loud at that bit.

The sexy dude at work is nothing. That's your punishment for snooping.

I think the first thing you need to do is reassure her that IF you get your sex life back on track it won't be like it was before. It should be loving, consensual sex where nobody gets hurt. You know like what normal people do.

By the way, just because something worked well with loads of previous partners, it doesn't mean your partner will enjoy it. Bodies are - surprise! - all different. I've also had "loads" of previous partners and what they liked varied hugely. It's not like servicing a motorbike.

Cripes. Couldn't get past the first paragraph.

Sorry.

True dat. :-)

More helpfully -

sex after babies. Normal not to have any for a long time. Make sure she understands that you find this normal as well. If she knows that a cuddle, or some affection, has no expectation from you of leading to anything else it makes it easier for her to start being affectionate again.

Sex in general. Hmmm, don't think we needed all the detail either, but as you've given it, my impression is that you aren't as good a lover as you believe. It sounds like it's all ego with you, all about your performance, about what you 'do' to a woman. Good sex isn't about trying to be the best ever, about clever techniques, about multiple orgasms, about stroking the man's ego. It isn't what you think she should like rather than what she does actually like. It isn't about you knowing better than her. It's about being tuned into each other and mutually having fun together, taking and giving. Do you know how easy it is for a woman to fake an orgasm? I've only done it a couple of times and both times it was when the man was just determined to 'give' me an orgasm and frankly I'd got to the point where I just wanted him to fuck off and leave me alone now thanks, regardless of how much I'd enjoyed things up to that point. You really need to prove how wonderful a lover you are? Fine, ooooooh aaaaaah, mmmm, you're the best ever, snore.