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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Wedding & Narc mil

57 replies

Sugarfreeriot · 21/01/2015 21:59

For several reasons both me and dp (soon to be dh) have decided that what we REALLY want is to do a quick registry office ceremony followed by an evening reception.
We don't want anyone at our ceremony, we want a night away together a quick intimate ceremony and a big celebration involving everyone in the evening.
Mil has displayed narcissistic behaviour from the word go in out relationship and both her and her enabling husband have caused much stress and upset in or family.
They themselves didn't have their parents at their wedding, just friends . Yet we are genuinely concerned that not inviting them (or anyone else) to our ceremony will give us the wedding we want but a life of hell from then on.
We are very tempted to just have them there for those 2 hours of the ceremony and small celebratory lunch to avoid the stress of mil getting very "upset" and crying at dh, guilting him and telling everyone what awful people we are, but then it's not really our day is it?
Do I suck it up? Get on with those few hours and avoid a lifetime of guilt tripping and nastiness or do we take a stand?
Dp will do this , although he finds standing up to his narc mother he said he will as it's our day.
Start as you mean to go on etc but I'm concerned for our future.
There's a lot of history of he parents making our lives hell and the appear to have calmed down somewhat recently...I fear however this is because there is a wedding this year they are already trying to control in very minor yet highly irritating and manipulative ways :/
Should I even marry into this family? We already have a dd together so I'm stuck with them regardless.

OP posts:
Ohfourfoxache · 22/01/2015 08:21

Please don't back down Sugar

Have the day you want, sod anyone else.

If you back down over this, they will only see it as an opportunity to get you to back down again over something else in the future. They will see it as getting their own way, and the next time they want to override your plans they'll just ramp up the pressure even more.

And as others have said - what's the worst they can do? Not speak to you? Bliss!

kaykayred · 22/01/2015 08:25

Even if you aren't getting married in the registry office, but are having a civil wedding with the registrar, it doesn't last anything LIKE two hours.

It's more like 45 minutes all in. Ten minutes for you to be interviewed separately before the ceremony (not optional), then MAXIMUM thirty minutes for the ceremony (even if you have every optional bit included, it is half an hour), then five minutes to sign the register with your witnesses.

Oh and five minutes to leave I guess

So 50 minutes.

You could invite them to the actual ceremony, and again to the evening do, but do something on your own in between.

Example - meet them at the venue, get married, then say you want to check into the hotel (if you are staying in one for the night for the occasion), and that you will see them that evening.

Then go and have a nice lunch together just the two of you, then meet up with them with everyone else in the evening.

I'm not sure that gives them anything to complain about. If they complain about that then they will complain about literally anything you do anyway, but at least this way people can clearly see that you haven't been unreasonable.

AttilaTheMeerkat · 22/01/2015 08:32

The wedding has to be the day that you want. It cannot and must not be about what they want.

Do not back down on this and you also need to protect your child from their malign influences as of now.

I would be very wary of letting your ILs having any contact with your DD now even if it is just to take her swimming for a short period of time per week. The amount of damage these people over time can do is staggering.

If they are too toxic for you to deal with, its the same deal for your both vulnerable and defenceless child. There are some red flags re them and your DD already; narcissists tend to either over value or under value the relationship with the child and they are already treating your DD like royalty. You have also seen how they act with their own son; they will manipulate your child in a not too dissimilar manner to how your H to be is being manipulated in future. It also sends your child mixed messages in that the child sees their grandparents ignoring and or disrespecting her mum and dad. I cannot emphasise enough how dysfunctional these people are as grandparents, they are really awful as grandparent figures.

Have the wedding day you want and do not at all back down. This is really your own family unit at stake here.

You would not have tolerated any of this from a friend, they are no different. Do not give them any role in your wedding plans; it will be taken over by her (with enabler H on her side too) and made out all to be about her again.

holeinmyheart · 22/01/2015 09:18

Well I know I am going to be flamed here before I start, but let's imagine that the boot was on the other foot. Imagine that you have an only son. You have loved him and nurtured him all his life. You haven't been perfect because your own childhood was awful, but you have done your best.

Then he meets someone. She is not someone you like particularity, but you are expected to get on with her because she is going to be your wonderful sons wife. You should also keep your mouth shut.
Unfortunately you get off on the wrong foot because you expressed your opinion about something trivial and your potential DIL disagreed. Everyone is entitled to an opinion but both you and your MIL think you are right. Sons often choose someone quite like their DM or DFI! after all. Your MIL is obviously a strong opinionated character. Are you Post?

Because the relationship between a DIL and MIL can be difficult and full of jealousy ( on both sides, two women battling to be the main woman in a mans life) your potential DIL couldn't express herself freely and honestly to you. She then festered and built up a resentment against you. She spends a lot of time complaining about you to her DH and more or less asking him to choose between you and her.

What about improving your own skills regarding being assertive? No words can hurt you if you don't let them. If you are able to say to her firmly and calmly that you are not putting up with any manipulation etc, then it would make you much happier. As time goes by in your marriage she is going to become less and less important anyway. But if you are able to get on with her she could be VERY useful.

You say she worships your DD. That is because your DD is her blood relative and you are not. I think it is perfectly natural for a GP to worship a GC. I think it would be fair to say that I would die for mine. I wouldn't die for any of my DIL's.( I get on with them fine but they are not my children and I will never love them like my own flesh and blood)

I am not sure I go in for 'Special Day' Malarkey either. I married with two witnesses, without any family being present. My MIL behaved stupidly and told me that I was an unsuitable bride for her son. So I have NO AXE to grind on behalf of MILs. But with age some understanding of the dynamics has come to me. I have been married over 40 years and I have been to very expensive weddings that have lasted five minutes. I think the ceremony itself will not reflect the longevity of a marriage.
I think you could put your energies and intelligence into getting on with this woman instead of using your skills to combat her.

My DH, despite my best efforts ( moaning and complaining and crying) never took sides. I realise I made it very hard for him and now I am older, I wish I had being more understanding. As the Mother of sons( and thank God daughters) I have become a MIL myself and it is not easy.

When my sons married, their wives became the most important woman in their lives, instead of me. ( i accept this, as it is as it should be) it didn't stop me feeling grief as my sons and I had been in almost daily contact and I love them so much. Now they are married I rarely see them alone. Their wives are their Social Secretaries.
It is also my belief that a wife holds all the cards as you have sex with your DH. I think most men would choose having sex with his wife at the expense of his relationship with his Mother. You also have her GC. I have sat with crying friends who have been cut off from seeing their GC. It is the cruellest punishment for not getting on with their DILs.
There are so many posts on MNET about the fraught relationship between DIL and MIL, to think conflict is the norm. It is sad really as we are all women.

Sugarfreeriot · 22/01/2015 09:43

holeinmyheart
I'm not going to flame you.
I get everything you say, honestly I do.
My mil actually had a perfectly good upbringing, but her father died at 18. She told us he worshiped her and loved her dearly and that her mother was pretty much the opposite.
From what I can tell she had a lovely upbringing but having lost her df at such a vulnerable age etc it went downhill from there.
My fil had an AWFUL upbringing, by the sounds of things he had pretty neglectful parents!
I feel the need to say that I have let my mil take my dd a lot more often when she was smaller- she was much easier then. But they moved away for one year so they didn't see much of her then. It's taken me a couple of months since they've been back to feel at ease leaving dd with them, they've seen my dd with me and dp once or twice a week and now have started to take her alone.
My mil sings my praises to her family (many of them tell me that mil had lots of lovely things to say about me and less nice things to say about dp). I try, regardless of many fall ours over serious issues to put them aside so my dd can have a relationship with her grandparents. It's important. I know that. I have repeatedly tried SO hard to get my dp to try with his parents when we first got together. We had been together 2 weeks when my mil broke down in tears, screaming and crying that she had lost her doting son.
I believe there was many an issue before I arrived.
They have incredibly high expectations of my dp. He in their eyes can never get it right. From what he's told me ever since he left home and went to university his mother has been incredibly hard work.
Yes she only has one son but they actually chose to do this because they wanted to have more money (they have both told me this was their reason) and that isn't my dps fault.
Whilst I see that family are a very important part of our lives it's hard to put their feelings into the equation when all they appear to do is hurt my dp (I've had him in tears on several occasions because he just wants them to love him for who he is).
It's heartbreaking for me to watch.
I hope we can have a normal relationship with them, my dp has got the stage where he avoids contact with them and they now contact ME instead of him because HE finds them too much.
It's a tough one. Having a relationship with a narcissist is not easy.
But I do see your point, believe me I've tried so hard with them, we are never quiet enough.

OP posts:
Sugarfreeriot · 22/01/2015 09:48

Unfortunately you get off on the wrong foot because you expressed your opinion about something trivial and your potential DIL disagreed
Me & my mil got off on the wrong foot when she begged me to abort her grandchild, her own blood. I wouldn't say it's trivial & my mil is unaware totally that I find her difficult.
Honestly, she thinks I love her because no I'm not strong minded or assertive- that's half the problem.

OP posts:
TitchyThings · 22/01/2015 10:14

holeinmyheart I find your post quite unsettling, I feel that it confirms all the bad opinions that people have about MIL's.

Getting off to a bad start by expressing your opinions, not ideal.

Having sex with your wife trumps your relationship with your mother. How can you even connect the two things in your head?

Sugarfreeriot · 22/01/2015 10:37

I have to say in pretty sure dp could easily pick his mother over me and still get sex.
Although I had hoped he would prioritise me as we have a wonderful relationship as friends before anything else and he knows I'm always there for him etc. not that he gets sex from me (which to be fair since having dd isn't that often).
Do all women view men like that?

OP posts:
ihatethecold · 22/01/2015 11:01

I just don't think hole is seeing the bigger picture here! that's all.
She maybe hasn't had to deal with toxic crap like the rest of us.
It makes a huge difference.

holeinmyheart · 22/01/2015 11:01

Titch I don't think you have read my reply. I was putting forward a hypothetical situation.
Having sex thing refers to his Mother NO mine.
What is your opinion about the Posts dilemma? Arn't we supposed to be trying to help her understand what is going on, rather than commenting on each other's posts.

Sugarfreeriot · 22/01/2015 11:07

holeinmyheart that might be how my mil feels then. But I'm really not sure.
All I know is that if I felt my son was being taken from me the last thing is do is push him further with my narcissistic behaviour. I think I may go insane if I try to rationalise her behaviour/ understand why she does things.
It's beyond me.

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TitchyThings · 22/01/2015 11:18

Sugarfreeriot, you sound OK to me, and I have been married for many years and been a MIL several times over. Have the wedding you both want, anything else is just setting yourselves up for more problems. Be firm, be precise, be united. You are adults.

I'm sorry to say that holeinmyheart gave a very good insight into her personality without really intending to.

CalamitouslyWrong · 22/01/2015 11:28

There's something very worrying about a MIL who actually sees her relationship with her DIL as a struggle to be the most important woman in her son's life.

The way it works is: you get to be the most important woman in their life while they're children. Then they grow up and make their own choices about who the most important woman (or they may choose to have a most important man or they might choose to be single) in their life. You stand back and are there to support and love them. You do not try to compete with the person they've chosen to spend their life with.

You're not supposed to 'worship' your grandchildren either. Worship is never healthy in human relationships of any kind.

CalamitouslyWrong · 22/01/2015 11:31

OP: have the day you want. In this situation there is no way to avoid a nasty fallout. You do your own thing; you're in the wrong. You give her what she wants; your day gets ruined and you're still in the wrong. You can't avoid her deciding you're in the wrong, so you may as well choose the option where you get the day you want.

AttilaTheMeerkat · 22/01/2015 11:47

Sugar

It is NOT possible to have a relationship with a narcissist because the goalposts are constantly moved. Your H has had a lifetime of them and their conditioning and his relationship with them is one really akin to abusive. He goes back to them in the hopes that they will change and or apologise; he keeps giving them chances. These people never apologise nor accept any responsibility for their actions.

Calling them out on their behaviour does not really work either because again you are dealing with relations who operate outside the rules of "normal" familial interactions.

AttilaTheMeerkat · 22/01/2015 11:58

Anyone who calls their son's wife a social secretary is given a further unintended insight into their own personality.

I think that women who become difficult MILs when their sons marry have always been tetchy and difficult their entire lives. That has really nothing to do with the DIL as such; she would have acted the same regardless of whom her darling boy had married. Such women have deeply rooted issues and their childhood can often play a part in that. Often such women have been put on pedestals by their own father. Abuse often features within such disordered childhoods as well.

Often too, the son leaves the relationship with his mother to be handled by his wife because he does not want to. He knows his mother is difficult and tetchy but just wants this all to go away and for everyone to get along. He has no desire to tackle his mother because he really cannot stand up for himself. His own fear, obligation and guilt have put paid to that. His own inertia sadly simply hurts him as well as his family unit.

TitchyThings · 22/01/2015 12:18

Well said Attila, men are perfectly able to see their mothers alone if they want to, if they don't want to they make their wives the scapegoat.

CalamitouslyWrong · 22/01/2015 12:24

Actually, I suspect there may be something else going on in the wife as social secretary comment. It screams to me someone who cannot and will not accept that her son has grown up and cut the apron strings and so blames the DIL for 'taking her son away' or displacing her from her position as most important woman in his universe.

What's probably happening is that the DIL and the son are organising their social lives together, which means that the son isn't putting his mother first. Of course, this is obviously because the DIL controls the diary not because the son has plans that don't revolve around his mother.

Of course, the son could make it clear to his mother that he's got other plans rather than letting his wife be the scapegoat. And, yes, he's probably happy that he doesn't have to disappoint his mother or be the 'bad guy' when she's so eager to blame his wife anyway.

Sugarfreeriot · 22/01/2015 12:36

Attila everything you say is right to be honest! the struggle for dp is that they pull him back in with this wonderful behaviour and give him a little bit of what he really wants from them- acceptance. This only happens for a short while and then the nasty comments, neediness and control slowly start sneaking back in. It takes a while for it to get to the boiling point again and then dp will fall out with them, they will tell their family members how horrible we are to them no matter what they do and so on continues.
If they were just nasty, all the time and had no positive influence in our lives dp would have ditched them by now but he finds it even harder now he sees his dog and dm enjoying his dd and dd enjoying them too. He doesn't want to "take" that away from dd.
When we seemingly "get it right" we are then expected to give more and more of our time, money and attention to her and she ultimately plays the disappointed card.
Interesting point you made about narcissists being put on a pedestal, I think this was the case for her did who she lost at 18.

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SnakesandKnives · 22/01/2015 12:37

Wow some people really don't get the concept of a hypothetical scenario do they? I think holeinmyhearts post is very useful on this thread for some balance. I don't think its necessarily any more right or wrong than anyone else's thoughts but at least may make someone stop and think of the other side (even if they then totally disagree with it)

If it was me, I'd do what kakayred suggested last page.....accept them at the (v short) ceremony and then go off and do own thing till evening. Because how ever unpleasant they are, and I doubt they are intending to be as few people do, this is a once off event involving their only son. I know my parents would have been hugely upset to miss the 'I do' bit. Also does rather formalise the fact that her son has now, officially moved on to you.....

My MIL has honestly been miles better since we officially married.

Sugarfreeriot · 22/01/2015 12:38

Often too, the son leaves the relationship with his mother to be handled by his wife because he does not want to. He knows his mother is difficult and tetchy but just wants this all to go away and for everyone to get along.

Spot on there!!

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AttilaTheMeerkat · 22/01/2015 12:42

He is still seeking their approval; approval which they will never give him.
One of the many damaging behaviours that such toxic people leave their now adult children. He is also likely to be very deeply in FOG (fear, obligation, guilt) with regards to them as well.

Would he ever consider counselling?. I daresay not but he cannot go on as he is doing. He doing the same expecting a different result from his parents is not ever going to happen.

By them seeing his daughter he is further exposing her to their manipulative behaviours. He's is the middle of being manipulated himself and they will do the same to his child too. It is not something you can yourself afford to let happen.

He needs to break the cycle of abuse because their behaviour towards him is basically abusive; the nice/nasty cycle is a continuous one and he cannot afford to get sucked back into it. He is really only hurting his own self and by turn you people by his actions.

Sugarfreeriot · 22/01/2015 12:44

I get that it's hypothetical but it's just not really relevant to my situation.
Yes it's their only son, but does that really mean that only children with siblings are allowed the freedom to elope? Get married abroad on a beach? Not get married at all? Only invite their friends? Not invite anyone?
Do only children not get the right to choose without feeling guilty because their parents chose not to have more children?
I'm not sure it does.
I'm the only daughter my mother has, only child in fact that is going to get married. My other siblings aren't bothered by it, so does that mean I'm depriving my mother of watching me say "I do" and should therefore expect the same irrational behaviour from her? Because she hasn't acted that way at all, in fact she encouraged me to do exactly what I want and is just happy if found someone I want to marry.
I'm just not combined by the "he's there only son" card.
Sorry, but so fucking what.

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AttilaTheMeerkat · 22/01/2015 12:45

The following excerpt may be helpful to you as well:-

Narcissists and those with antisocial traits tend to subject romantic partners through three phases within a relationship. The idealization phase (which often happens most strongly during the early stages of dating or a relationship) consists of putting you on a pedestal, making you the centre of his/her world, being in contact with you frequently, and showering you with flattery and praise. You are convinced that the narcissist can’t live without you and that you’ve met your soulmate. Be wary of: constant texting, shallow flattery and wanting to be around you at all times. This is a technique known as “lovebombing” and it is how most victims get sucked in: they are tired of the “games” people play with each other in communication and are flattered by the constant attention they get from the narcissist. You may be fooled into thinking that this means a narcissist is truly interested in you, when in fact, he or she is interested in making you dependent on their constant praise and attention.

The devaluation phase is subsequent to this idealization phase, and this is when you’re left wondering why you were so abruptly thrust off the pedestal. The narcissist will suddenly start to blow hot and cold, criticizing you, covertly and overtly putting you down, comparing you to others, emotionally withdrawing from you and giving you the silent treatment when you’ve failed to meet their “standards.” Since the “hot” aspect of this phase relies on intermittent reinforcement in which the narcissist gives you inconsistent spurts of the idealization phase throughout, you become convinced that perhaps you are at fault and you can “control” the narcissist’s reactions.

Even though the narcissist can be quite possessive and jealous over you, since he or she views you as an object and a source of narcissistic supply, the narcissist is prone to projecting this same behavior onto you. The narcissist makes you seem like the needy one as you react to his or her withdrawal and withholding patterns even though the expectations of frequent contact were established early on in the relationship by the narcissist himself.

You are mislead into thinking that if you just learn not to be so “needy,” “clingy,” or “jealous,” the narcissist will reward you with the loving behavior he or she demonstrated in the beginning. The narcissist may use these and other similar words to gaslight victims when they react normally to being provoked. It’s a way to maintain control over your legitimate emotional reactions to their stonewalling, emotional withdrawal and inconsistency.

Unfortunately, it is during the devaluation phase that a narcissist’s true self shows itself. You have to understand that the man or woman in the beginning of the relationship never truly existed. The true colors are only now beginning to show, so it will be a struggle as you attempt to reconcile the image that the narcissist presented to you with his or her current behavior.

During the discard phase, the narcissist abandons his or her victim in the most horrific, demeaning way possible to convince the victim that he or she is worthless. This could range from: leaving the victim for another lover, humiliating the victim in public, being physically aggressive and a whole range of other demeaning behaviors to communicate to the victim that he or she is no longer important

Most abusive relationships contain a certain amount of gaslighting, a technique narcissists use to convince you that your perception of the abuse is inaccurate. During the devaluation and discard phases, the narcissist will often remark upon your emotional instability, your “issues,” and displace blame of his/her abuse as your fault. Frequent use of phrases such as “You provoked me,” “You’re too sensitive,” “I never said that,” or “You’re taking things too seriously” after the narcissists’ abusive outbursts are common and are used to gaslight you into thinking that the abuse is indeed your fault or that it never even took place.

Narcissists are masters of making you doubt yourself and the abuse. This is why victims so often suffer from ruminations after the ending of a relationship with a narcissist, because the emotional invalidation they received from the narcissist made them feel powerless in their agency and perceptions. This self-doubt enables them to stay within abusive relationships even when it’s clear that the relationship is a toxic one, because they are led to mistrust their own instincts and interpretations of events.

During the discard phase, the narcissist reveals the true self – the ugly, abusive and abrasive monster rears its head and you get a glimpse of the evil that was lurking within all along. You bear witness to his or her cold, callous indifference as you are discarded. You might think this is only a momentary lapse into evil, but actually, it is as close you will ever get to seeing the narcissist’s true self.

The manipulative, conniving charm that existed in the beginning is no more – instead, it is replaced by the genuine contempt that the narcissist felt for you all along. See, narcissists don’t truly feel empathy or love for others – so during the discard phase, they feel absolutely nothing for you except the excitement of having exhausted another source of supply. You were just another source of supply, so do not fool yourself into thinking that the magical connection that existed in the beginning was in any way real. It was an illusion, much like the identity of the narcissist was an illusion.

Sugarfreeriot · 22/01/2015 12:49

attila I've suggested counselling. He's had it before through work due to him being in you guessed it a controlling, emotionally elusive relationship with a narc who played sick mind games with him Sad
(Not me may I add!)
But I don't know how to A)find a counsellor that isn't all for "keeping the family together" and B) convince him he needs it now.

OP posts: