I feel like i'm back in an abusive relationship only this time with my daughter

[18yearstooold]

Dd is 13 (also have dd2 who is 11)

I was with their dad for 13 years, split up when dd1 was 8

It took me years to recognise I was being emotionally and sexually abused and took me years to get out of it -but I remember well being unable to relax in my own home and feeling like i'm walking on eggshells, always putting myself on the bottom of the pile

Well it's all happening again, only this time with dd1
Today we are supposed to be seeing family, she doesn't want to go and I've woken up with a massive knot in my stomach, worrying about what will happen -her dad only visited my parents 4 times in all the time we were together, he would be 'ill' or cause a row to avoid it

Yesterday was a write off, apparently I got her nothing she wanted -I obviously don't even know her her dad used to say this or similar

Food is an ongoing battle, her dad constantly used to criticise my coking, telling anyone that would listen that I was trying to poison him

I'm really struggling to separate normal teenage behaviour and worrying behaviour

I've spoken to school who say she's a model pupil but I finally got a learning mentor to speak to her and she said she's incredibly defensive and has obviously got a lot of issues relating to her dad
Dd has been offered counselling but refused it

People tell me to just get her told, make her get in the car etc etc but that's not even close to being possible

It hurts me to see her so unhappy and that I can't help her but there is this fear that she is so much like her dad and she's not choosing a different path -she says she's who she is, can't help it and it's not her fault if it upsets people, they should just man up

I can't go on like this, i'm so tired of it all, it's got to change but I don't have the option of leaving this relationship -I love her to bits but this hurts

She is trying to exert control (e.g. refusing to eat food when she helped with the shopping) over a situation in which she feels she has no control. I have every sympathy (have a very strong-minded DD) but you need to take back some self-esteem. You do not have to control every little thing, but today tell her that you and your other DD will go and see family (which you both want to do) and leave her at home (which she is indicating she prefers by saying she will not go with you). Don't argue or try to persuade, just get in the car and go. She will be fine for a few hours. If she rings you and cries etc, saying she has been left alone, tell her it was her choice.

Hope the day is OK at least. Sometimes all the counselling in the world won't help. Ultimately, we all have to try to deal with family situations we cannot change (except in the case of Dv/abuse) and however hard it is, her learning to deal with it begins now.

If you do not establish some standards/limits/rules she will become more and more selfish and entitled, and you will be facilitating it. I am highly sympathetic but may sound hard - I have had to deal with a quite similar situation.

Take care.

Sorry but I disagree with most other posters .

I think she has control problems , just like her father, she IS trying to control you. It feels the same because it is the same. No wonder you are so distressed and sick with fear .

The first rule with kids with control issues is only enter control battles over issues you can win. You can never win over what goes into and comes out of her body ( food , drink, elinination ) and a school issues .

I see she's not a problem at school .so no wonder she targeting food and drink.

You need to step right out of this issue. Honestly , it's very unlikely that she drank nothing for two days . do what the others have said, make the family meals and if she doesn't like it, that's her choice . She can make a sandwich fruit/cereal /pasta later. Don't show any emotional reaction to her eating or not eating.

I wouldn't do meal planning with her either, assuming that you are making meals that you know she likes. She will just use it to control you more, ie agreeing to eat something, then refusing. Or saying it's the way you cooked it. Or she didn't want brand X baked beans , these are vile and you only bought them to upset her, she wanted brand Y .

The example of her cooking nuggets at 2 am is classic. She is hungry but she doesn't want you to know that she's eating.because that way She Will Lose and You Have Won ( in her mind ) . Because you won't be worried about her not eating and she won't get to control your thoughts and behaviour .

I bet she's eating and drinking normally at school and at friends houses.

I also agree don't go to CAHMS as they will blame you

Try not to " punish " her but to use logical consequences where possible.

So if she chooses not to go to the relatives with you, she misses out. Don't bring her nice food home, don't tell her everyone misses her or try to make her feel better .dont give her your gifts . Don't tell her all the news. Don't go back to get her if she changes her mind aftre an hour.

If she phones you and says there is some disaster at home and you need to rush back, don't go . Say " oh dear, just clean it up as best as you can and we will be home at 4. You're a teenager now, in sure you can cope "

I'm assuming this is a fake disaster like " the dishwasher is leaking " or " ive shattered a glass on the floor " or " I've been /feel sick" . Obviously if the house is on fire or she's broken her leg you must go .

If she pushes it to extreme lengths and that's likely deal with the crisis in a matter-of-fact way. No drama at all. Mop up whatever crisis almost out of the corner of your eye, your main focus on something inane. Stay generally cheery (though don't go over the top!).

Excellent advice here especially around separating how you feel about her and how you feel about her behaviour

My thoughts are during her most impressionable earlier years she's only really had one example shown of how to behave; her dads.

Although this ended years ago, these messages tend to stay with you until another way is shown. This is your job now and tough love/black and white is the quickest way for her to learn/accept - the examples given in previous posts are lovely and clear.

You have an excellent insight in to what is happening (by stopping buying snacks, limiting food in the house etc) and are already on the path to helping her reform and modify her responses.

Make sure you are clear in that these are her 'choices' so she can begin to see her role too.

Most people during times of angst and emotion just want someone to take control and take the pain away - in some ways she's pushing you to do this - she doesn't really know where she stands because her boundaries are hazy and pliable and this also makes her feel both in control and out of control.

Remind her again you and DD2 are going, invite her to come and if she doesn't say ok. Make sure the house is safe and I agree, don't come back for her or bring back the nice stuff for her or she 'gains' without the social effort. Harsh, but it's better to be tough and relax when things settle down than try to be soft and harden up - she won't respect you for it

Good luck today and try to enjoy time with your other DD

OP I have been through all this.

I managed to get DD to see a counsellor once bit after that she refused as he didn't agree with everything she said! You cannot force her to have counselling if she doesn't want to talk. Actually, as you are finding out, you can't force her to do anything she doesn't want.

I had to emotionally detatch from my daughter from 13 to 17. It sounds horrific and it wasn't fun but it was the only way to get through it with her still living here. She did live with a friend for about a week during that time but she did come back.

I had countless threats that she would go and live with her Dad, but when I calmly agreed and offered to help her pack, she would suddenly change her mind.

You have to ignore a lot of the bad behaviour, but if she was really rude I would call her on it and explain she could not be so horrible and still live with us. I had to be really firm with her and it has eventually worked. I agree with PP don't get sucked into all this meal planning as whatever you do it will still be wrong. Dish up what you want, if she doesn't like it she won't eat it but if you make it less of a drama you take away the fun for her.

Act like you don't give a toss whether she goes out with you or not. You need to take away her power.

Best advice I had was to treat my teenage daughter like an annoying lodger.

This really resonates with me and my 14 yr old daughter.
I think the comments you have received are great and they have certainly made me think.
I don't have any answers of my own, other than I try & make myself separate her behaviour from that of her fathers. I think he learned his controlling & abusive behaviour through poor boundaries when a teenager and seems to be stuck in teen years. This makes it difficult to identify which behaviour is from her father and which is teen behaviour.
Take care

I have had similar. I dont want to go into it in too much details, but after splitting with ex when DD was 2, and her having very little exposure to his behaviour, she can act EXACTLY the same way, even down to mannerisms and facial expressions. However it seems that she most probably has PDA (pathalogical demand avoidance - its on the autistic spectrum) and most likely he did too. the behaviour is triggered by anxiety and is the condition, not the person, hence the similarities.
She has always been a bit 'tricky' but it wasnt til 12 that it really started kicking in with force, as teengage hormones really accentuate ASD behaviours. Sadly PDA is very hard to get diagnosed and there is an element of behaviour thrown in with what they cannot help, all part and parcel of the condition. but just in case this may be a possibility......

Are you getting help for your anxiety? Or for the issues you have surrounding the relationship with your dd’s father? If not, please do so, your relationship with your daughter will benefit. As you say you’ve ‘used up’ counselling entitlement, refer yourself again with a different problem. ‘Anxiety’ is a separate issue from ‘relationship breakdown’, and ‘parenting’ is another issue entirely.
Could you be interpreting dd’s unpleasant but normal teenage unco-operative behaviour as abuse, when that isn’t in her mind?
Teenagers do start to reject invitations to family events. By sixteen, I was refusing to go on holiday with my parents and staying home alone. So its not out of context with the behaviour of her peers.
She told you she ‘couldn’t cope’ with a family day but you are insisting on her taking part. That’s unkind of you and its disrespectful to her. Why not take her views into account?
Refusing food and drink is another matter entirely. Let her go with having what she wants from what is available, for now, but do get her some help with this.
You’re her mum, not her enemy. She isn’t your ex.
You don’t seem to be ‘slipping into victim’ so much as rushing to embrace it and make yourself the injured party – do you like being the victim, what do you get out of it?
There’s nothing wrong with telling her how to minimise the distress she causes to others, so they won’t have to ‘man up’ quite as much. But she’s a child and she’s hurting, and you’re her mum. She needs you to be her mum, not make yourself into her victim to meet a need of your own.

I'm sorry you are going through this, OP. I saw the same happen to my mother - first my dad and then one of my older sisters.

You say that DD refuses counselling. Does she respond to any sanctions at all (eg turning off the wi-fi, etc)? Because just as I wouldn't give my DS the option of not seeing the dentist when he needs it, I can't imagine giving him the option of not seeing the counsellor. And of course at this age they are too physically big - you can't just lift them into a pushchair and go, like a tantruming toddler! - so anything else that makes them do it is worth a go.

Absolutely agree with Ask, refer yourself for anxiety or parenting; the issues now exist independently of your abusive relationship, although the r/s was the cause.

OP it may be worth talking to your local sure start centre and maybe even looking at the Freedom Programme.

My sister did this in her teens some years after EA father moved out, she just took on that role in the family. In her head I think it split into either you were the one with all the power or one of the abused and she wasn't going to be vulnerable. In her twenties she had a lot of post traumatic stress to deal with from early childhood and dealing with that made a huge difference. I've also worked with abused women who unconsciously and unintentionally cued their children to pick up the abusive script - their self esteem was so low, their boundaries fragile, their confidence fragile, their child often had inherited expressions or voice patterns that were their fathers and triggered their mum. It was absolutely not their or their child's fault, it was that the mother had carried all this stress and trauma without anything like enough support for herself. What helped was increasing her confidence, her boundaries, her awareness of the very complex triggers to both her and child.

Well that's depressing then. We've been abused, anyone or thing can trigger that abuse, the subtlest triggers that need in-depth, skilled, sensitive counselling...

And if we don't get it, what then?

Come on, when you're faced with abusive behaviour it's as plain as the nose on your face. Others can look on, not having experienced it, and - falling back on that 'children are innocent' thing - hypothesise that the child is distressed in some way and responding inappropriately.

How about the child is being a shit.

Will watch this post with interest. I have the same issues with my DD who is 6. I am desperate for help as the time I spend with her is so miserable. I am walking on eggshells all the time, scared of her moodswings. Her jealousy of her sister means I am throwing myself between them much of the time and constantly reassuring her that I am treating them both fairly.
She takes out all her anger on me. she complains and is irritable much of the time. No amount of reassurance or love seems to be enough and at times, like you I feel I'm in a situation from which there is no escape. Christmas was pretty miserable as despite my best efforts I just got a lot of complaints. Food is used to manipulate here as well. "Do this or I won't eat"

I have just split from her father so everyone I ask for help tells me the behaviour is the result of the changes in her life. But on and off I've been struggling for 3 years since her sister was born. I think I've just got into a terrible cycle with her that needs to be broken.

Do you think your daughter feels insecure? I have been told my DD may be testing me to absolute destruction just to see if she can push me to the edge without me walking out on her- it is very hard

And like a pp says, a lot of people say it's me (and my anxiety) that's the root cause. The GP was totally unsympathetic blaming me and my partner's separation even when I was asking for family therapy in tears. The school aren't interested unless they play up at school. Everyone will say it is up to you to set the boundaries/ ignore negative behaviour etc but sometimes parents need help to do this. If it's not instinctual sometimes you actually want someone to give you some strategies/techniques even words you can se to stop a difficult situation escalate.

I know I need to change my behaviour but it's really hard to see your own child sobbing in the bathroom, soaking themselves because their sister has touched them and just be told to ignore it and walk away. Sometimes the instinct to try to help/comfort them is too strong.

Didn't intend to depress anyone Springy, just thought it might be useful to OP to know. A lot of abused women leave, get no help or like OP a few sessions that aren't enough, and triggers can last for years and be bloody miserable to live with. I agree totally there is not nearly enough support out there.

springy, I grew up with abusive parents, I have subsequently had a series of abusive relationships as I had no idea what healthy boundaries were.

Children can behave in a way which, if an adult did it, would be abusive, but children can also behave in other inappropriate ways (say lifting something in a shop or touching themselves inappropriately) and we don't call them criminal for that, we see it as our job as parents to try to resolve the issue and teach them appropriate behaviour.

The child may be being a shit but the shit behaviour is triggering a response in the OP which is nothing to do with the child being a shit. I am not saying the OPs anxiety is causing the behaviour no, but if treating the anxiety helps with OP feeling better, she will be better able to cope with the shit behaviour. At least, that is my experience, having strategies to cope with the feelings of panic when DC are unhappy and expressing that in various ways has helped me respond more calmly to whatever is kicking off. And yes, I have actually told both DC at different times that x behaviour is abusive or bullying and therefore unacceptable, so I am open to the idea that children, even my own, can be abusive; but if they learn that works, then where from there?

If food and drink is how the DD expresses control over her life, I would quite frankly just set a few boundaries over how and when she eats for herself (make sure oven is off and dishes are away or something) and be glad she is not anorexic, but then what do I know?

The chances of getting that support - ANY support, let's be frank - is second to none. We can be hindered by triggers for ever onwards, but not necessarily. As the support simply isn't there, we have to do our best, get genned up, do it ourselves. I don't believe not getting appropriate support is automatically a death sentence iyswim. I can't believe that, or I'd be metaphorically dead.

So, when I'm faced with this stuff, I have to find a way forward. Me and countless others. We have to dig deep, w-a-a-a-y beyond anything we thought we'd have to face. But as usual we put our life and soul into it, because it's our kids.

Places like MN are helpful because, in place of appropriate therapeutic support, there are many who have trod this path and can make suggestions, give advice. We can't be told that without appropriate therapeutic support we are bound to fail, repeat mistakes, be perenially triggered. We just can't countenance that, it isn't an option.

So, no, I don't think it's helpful to tell someone who is up to their neck in something that without appropriate therapeutic support she is bound to splatter her triggers all over her kids, get it wrong, fuck them up. That's not a helpful angle imo.

I'm with Kristingle, but I think it will be a temporary thing.

She is acting controlling - not because she is a horrible or controlling person but because she is a teenager who is scared and who is grasping on to anything and unable to see through to an appropriate way to behave.

So step back from the things you can't control - the food is about you, not herself, so she's not anorexic and won't starve herself into illness. Ignore it, don't worry about it, she will be eating perfectly fine at other times, like a toddler don't react if she improves in eating. School, good she's doing well there but if she does start to fail or fall behind, don't worry, she can make up the marks/exams later in life. There is basically nothing she can do right now that is definitely going to fuck everything up for ever. Everything can be fixed.

Definitely read some books about normal teenage challenging behaviour. That will help you separate out "Oh shit she's like her dad" and "How annoying, hope she'll grow out of it soon." Remember that abusive people don't have super special abusive-person ways of acting, they're acting in some kind of emotionally immature way. Every thing that an abusive person does, apart from perhaps sexual violence, is similar to something that a young person or child would do. With a child/young person you can discipline, teach, guide, be stable and they will grow in maturity and it will be okay. With an adult abuser you can't do any of this because they don't see you as a position of responsibility. Yes you probably are slipping into inappropriate ways to react because of the way you reacted to your ex, so reading the teen books will help with this.

Archery the problem is the DD has to want counselling or at least be open to it for it to do any good. Just as a dentist wouldn't force a patient's mouth open and yank a tooth out with them distressed, a counsellor can't force a reluctant patient to talk either. No, that has to be on her terms.

Think about the things you do for her and see which can be taken as privileges - wifi - you can change the password daily and she gets it when she's behaving well. Phone, ipod, stereo, TV in bedroom, games consoles etc - you can confiscate and give back to her. Pocket money, you control when she gets it and when she doesn't. It's not like you can pick her up and force her into the car but you can tie things like visiting relatives to access to these privileges. I wouldn't put food onto it though.

Show her love either at times she can't reject it - on the end of a note, called after her when she can hear but not reply, etc, or just accept that if/when she rejects this that doesn't mean she doesn't want to hear it, she's just angry. Like a toddler who says "I don't love you any more, I want a new mummy", she doesn't mean it, she's trying to hurt you. Don't let it hurt, don't stop telling her.

When you start feeling those familiar feelings can you think of some kind of mantra to repeat? "DD is not her father. Her father was acting like a child. This time I am the adult. I am in control, not her." or whatever works for you. Remove yourself from the situation, deep breaths, count to 10, repeat this three times, it should help you calm down and feel in control.

Trixie I think you should start your own thread - a six year old is totally different from a 13 year old and it's not appropriate to react in the same way. (PM me with a link if you want and I'll see what I can help with having had an angry three-five year old who is now a mostly calm six year old with history of a controlling father who is now absent)

Good luck.

springy, I am not aware anyone is saying that without professional support, the OP can't address the issue; all I personally was saying is that it is possible to get referred on beyond the six sessions, and without asking, she won't know what support there is

Ask me another

I'm not rushing to embrace being a victim?
How is that even helpful?
I am genuinely distressed by my own emotional response to her and I've tried to sort it out which is why I asked for counselling -i'm not a willing victim but Christmas has been like a pressure cooker

It's not a case of her not coping, that's an excuse she uses when she doesn't want to do something

She's come, she's not eaten a thing all day or opened her Christmas presents but she's been polite when spoken to

I was insistent she came for a number of reasons including the fact that sometimes we all have to do things because its respectful/polite and sometimes you need to take other people's feelings into account

Oh well done! You've won that battle, if not the war. She's won her battles - food, presents - but who loses with that?

Promise you won't point that out, though eh. Let her bite her nose off to spite her face. If you don't reacte - which is precisely why she does it - then it's a resounding lose/lose on her behalf.

Well done, OP. Now I remember that the trick is not to let them wind you up, i.e. your emotional response, but I never did quite learn the trick, though I did start to stop caring so much about the nasty things my dd said, so I suppose that was part of it.

I'm not rushing to embrace being a victim
How is that even helpful?

You need to wake up to what you're doing. MNers would call it 'projecting'. Her bad behaviours do not make her your 'abuser'. You seem to want an abuser' Stop that, because she's your child and she needs you.

I agree with Nettle about PDA (and that her dad probably has it.) The difficulty here is that, as Nettle implied, you tend to be given advice that is the exact opposite of what she needs - strict routines, inflexible structure, clear orders and punishments for non-compliance are all triggers for PDA. Afflicted people respond far better to discussion, explanation and complete avoidance of orders.

www.autism.org.uk/about-autism/related-conditions/pda-pathological-demand-avoidance-syndrome.aspx

There are support groups.