to think there is never an excuse for violence no matter how much somebody is "provoked"

[PuddinClub]

Without going into full detail I am having a very bad time with my father in law and how he speaks to my DS2. It´s hard to explain like this but every time we visit (usually once a month) there are comments about my son´s lack of ability at school, how he doesn´t speak clearly enough, how he acts like a baby, how he doesn´t eat enough amongst others. DS2 is 5 by the way. FIL has an obvious preference for DS1 and makes this very clear when we visit.

I realise this might not sound like such a big deal, but it is every single time we go there and the older DS2 gets the more it will start to affect him.

Such constant negative comments over the years have become too much for me to take and I have had countless arguments with DH who refuses to challenge his father as he will "take it badly". In fact all of DH´s family have this attitide, they creep around him, say best leave it be, don´t create bad feeling etc. Well, I have had a gut full and last visit you could have cut the atmosphere with a knife.

Anyway, today I was about 20mins from wanting to serve lunch. DH has just bought a webcam and was testing it out with his father supposedly so that the children could chat to him on Christmas day. I politely asked DH to leave it as I wanted to set the table and serve dinner. He was sitting at the dining table. DH took no notice and carried on with his "chat".

At this point I admit I saw red and said in a loud voice that I couldn´t understand all the sudden fuss in order to speak to "nasty man" and that the children weren´t even bothered as they were too busy playing with their toys.

At this point DH blew up and hit me twice on the arm and pushed me into the door.

Please don´t think I am being weak when I say he is not an agressive man, he absolutely isn´t but his reaction today has left me devastated. I don´t see how there can be any going back from this.

He came to apologise about 5 minutes later saying it was hurtful for him, as it´s his Dad and the Childrens´ grandfather. He was genuinely sorry.

Today has been awful and I am sitting here crying now. I feel so alone and I don´t know what to do. I don´t even live in the UK and have nobody to talk to.

Lweji To be honest, I'm aware of that, my own grandparent was advised to learn due to violence and I think OP should leave or get him to but if she's wavering and wants to try communicating first (which 90% of the time women do, my grandma included) then she's best off going to someone like that who will advise her properly- she may well not accept it from randoms on the internet, and may not want to talk to family, a good counsellor will help her do what's best for her, not the relationship.

Advised to leave* The counsellor was the one person she listened to, everyone else didn't know them well enough or was too invested. I would recommend OP goes counselling alone but if she decides she wants to try and 'save' the relationship like loads of people do, then I'd suggest RELATE for them both because they will be honest and she'll get looked after.

Not sure it needs a counseller to tell the OP that a. Her FIL is a twat and b. Her husband is a pathetic wimp who would rather hit his wife than stand up to a silly old bully. LTB

Unfortunately, many people have reported that Relate counsellors will take on DV couples, so based on that I wouldn't advise Relate.

Not that it matters, as OP is not in the UK.

Counselling alone, yes, as a couple, no.

Violence is not on but everyone has their limit (something to do with survival instinct) and pushing another person to that limit is just as unacceptable IMO.

OMG!
You deserve to be punched and thrown at the door just for that comment. Because that is pushing me to my limit.
Would you say that's fair?

From a behaviour point of view humans are predictable. They have patterns of behaviour or a usual MO if that makes more sense. Your FIL's MO is emotional abuse and bullying of a child - who is too vulnerable to have emotional resources/the ability to fight their corner for themselves. People rarely behave out of character, even their stress and anger responses follow a pattern. Your husband hit you when angry. The chances are therefore extremely high that this will happen again and again.

I can only think you need to reconsider your relationship in light of this, get anger management counselling for your husband and limit massively any contact time your FIL has with your children : explain why with written examples should any fallout off DH and FIL and any ganging up on you of them occur (they may try and minimise the abuse which is a common feature, to keep you under their control). Its worth also realising that having seen his father be a bully your DH's 'model' of manhood and what it is to be a man is exactly that, a bully.

Hello

We've moved this to Relationships now at the OP's request.

Verbally annoying someone is never the same as physically abusing them. That is universally understood and enshrined in law!

"Violence is not on but everyone has their limit (something to do with survival instinct) and pushing another person to that limit is just as unacceptable IMO.

OK anyone who pretends that somebody annoying someone is as bad as physically assaulting someone, is defending physical violence as a strategy and ought not to have their advice taken seriously.

We all have our limits, but the only acceptable limits in law and in most reasonable people's opinion, is self defence or the defence of someone else.

If you are pretending that it's OK to physically assault someone for anything other than reasons of self-defence or protection of someone else, then you are an abuse apologist and you need to go away and think about why that might be.

You can walk out on verbal attacks, you can go to hospital and die from physical attacks.

He came to apologise about 5 minutes later saying it was hurtful for him, as it´s his Dad and the Childrens´ grandfather. He was genuinely sorry.

Not entirely sure what you meant here OP about your DH being hurt...what by?....his actions or your attitude to his father? But FIL is abusive by anybody's standards and DH is too. For the sake of your children and their relationships, and your own well being.... break the chain. Stand up to this now. FIL and DH are not good people.

Bullies only bully when the world cannot see them and they think they can keep their secrets secret.

I meant proposing counselling for him, sorry should have been clearer. He's the one with the problem, not you op.

But I stick with the rest of it. If he doesn't admit he has a problem, then you have a big one. A man-shaped one. Sorry, not good news...but then you know that. And don't even think of staying 'for the sake of the kids', like I said.

Today has been uncomfortable to say the least. We haven´t spoken about what happened, the most he has said to me is that he can see I can´t look him in the eye. Of course I can´t.

He has been playing with the children pretty much all day, and that is a good thing in that it has given me plenty of thinking time, I don´t want to talk to him anyway.

I still don´t know what my plan of action is...I am going to be honest and say the thought of involving the Police/other agencies in a foreign country is something I really don´t want to do...I´m not sure how much it would help the situation anyway, I think it would make it worse.

Somebody mentioned up thread about us all having our limits. I can honestly say that he has NEVER shown any violent/aggressive tendencies before and we have been together for almost 20 years so maybe I did push him to his limit? It is not the first time we have argued about his father´s attitude towards DS1, it´s just it has been getting worse the last few times we have visited, and I have made it clear how I feel about the man.

Even so, I just don´t see any going back after what has happened and the issues with his father aren´t going to be resolved anyway even if H hadn´t physically attacked me.

Desertrek he was hurt by my referring to his father as "nasty man"

A couple of you have asked where I am...I am in Spain.

The main problem is where his next "limit" will be.
Do you know where it is?
Does he?

I understand you are reluctant to do anything right now. I didn't the first time, although I do regret it.

So, for now, I'd urge you to get support and information. Do talk to a local DV support agency. Do talk to a solicitor. Make a plan for leaving and an emergency plan should you need it.
Research about DV.
None of these things will commit you to leaving, but will put you in a better place should you decide to do it.

Do you speak Spanish?

Lweji - please believe me when I say that I do understand what you are saying...thank you for the advice

Yes, I speak Spanish

Puddinclub you said Somebody mentioned up thread about us all having our limits. I can honestly say that he has NEVER shown any violent/aggressive tendencies before and we have been together for almost 20 years so maybe I did push him to his limit?

Does the fact he has a limit which is hard for him mean he has to be aggressive when he reaches it. I've been pushed to my 'limit' a few times but not got violent.

Why does he think you cannot meet his eye?

PS PuddinClub thinking of you, this is a crap thing to happen and at a crap time.

Lweji speaks a lot of sense. It does not commit you to anything but makes sure you are free to go if you need to or to find a way to make him go if you need to.

Can I ask PuddinClub, genuine question, has he shown any controlling or difficult ways in the past, have you felt you are walking on egg shells etc. I know you say he has NEVER shown any violent/aggressive tendencies before but that is with you, were there ever any other times when friends pushed him to his limit or when he might have been violent/aggressive with others?

You need to go and speak to someone OP and get some advice. Do you have any friends or family nearby at all?

What will happen the next time his father comes up in an argument? Or when he bullies your children in front of you? Your weak husband won't stand up for him, will you feel confident to after this?

What about your limits? What are they?

Your FIL drove you to your limits. You expressed that you'd reached your limits by calling him a horrible man - which he is. You didn't assault him.

Being attacked by the cowardly father of your child, a father who doesn't have the cojones to stand up to his bullying father and tell him to leave his kid alone, would be way past my limits. I hope it's past your's.

You had every fucking right to be really angry with your disgusting FIL. And with your DH for not standing up to him. You didn't express your anger in physical violence towards either of them. Please, please do not imagine that you pushing him "to his limits" is any excuse at all for his violence towards you.

You may well have pushed him to his limits; maybe you standing up to your FIL, grated on him because it shows up his failure to stand up to the old git; but so what? We all get pushed to our limits every day when bringing up children or dealing with difficult people at work, in shops etc. We don't attack them because we don't feel entitled to. Don't fall into the trap of blaming yourself for his behaviour. He's responsible for his own (well-deserved) feelings of inadequacy, you're not responsible for triggering them, or for his response to that that trigger.

Basically people who say "don't push others to their limits" are saying "walk on eggshells, pander to him, make sure you don't tip him over the edge". They are making you responsible for your H's behaviour, which is exactly what abusers do. Don't fall for it.

Bullies are cowards.
Your FIL is a coward.
Your OH is a coward, unable to face his own father but capable of hurting you physically. Stand up to him. Make a break from the generational abuse and bullying. Or this is what your children will learn.