"But we took you to stately homes!!!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

It's December 2014, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
October 2014

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Allingood your dp is frightened, but this has gone on so long and gone so far so you don't have any more capacity for this BS.

rock - hard place.

both of you need to stay focussed on each other, supporting each other and uniting. this shit is designed to pull you apart, but you can get through this.

keep talking to your dp, encourage him to keep talking to you.

Just realised actually it's well over a year since there was the trouble with the close relative. nearly two in fact.

I just wish it was different. Keep wondering what I could have done differently to get a better outcome. Sadly the only thing I think she wanted from me was an admission I am a terrible person, completely unfair and mean.

Even if I was someone like that (I devoutly hope not and think not) ... it's not like I was going to admit that, was I.

I really really don't see why I should say all that when she had every ... fecking ... invite .. but one. And she didn't get that invite because 1) I really thought it would be the very last thing in the world she would want and 2) I cannot fit 4 extra adults into a house that has already 4 rooms containing 2 adults and 1 child (excluding bathrooms).

gaaah why does it still dismay me ...

Allin - It may be awful, but that's just normal for us. She tells me things to provoke a reaction and then it always comes out later that it was either untrue or embellished. I'm her silly puppet and I'm not doing it anymore. Although, saying that, I'm eating more junk food, staying up later and sleeping in much later so in obviously not doing great after our breakup but I know in a few weeks when it's settled down DS will be more calm and life in General will seem better.

I'm glad that your DP has gone to talk to his parents - that's a huge step! I really hope it goes well. I like how he's told you to lock the doors and shut the blinds in case she comes round. I think I'd rather go for a walk than hide in the house - hope you manage to keep yourself busy.

Hi all, massive hand hold to everyone who is struggling right now

Can I just say - dear god almighty, I absolutely loathe Christmas and almost everything about it and I am incredibly relieved its over for another year. DP and I spent it with his parents - 100% out of guilt (on his part), 0% out of pleasure. His mother could not stop with the guilt trips, his dad could not stop going on about how we weren't staying long enough and it was all fairly grim really. Presents weren't even mentioned until 5pm on Christmas Day, and his mother spent both days sitting in front of the TV and doing the crossword, barely making any conversation, like every other damn day of the year.

And I really think that I am done with it for good. I am 35 years old and I am sick and tired of being expected to behave like an excited child every Christmas for the benefit of one set of parents or the other. Neither DP nor I give a shiny fig about Christmas so I think that from now on, I just want to ignore it. Its the most overhyped load of nonsense so I'm opting out from now on.

Roll on January when we can all behave like individuals again!

Back again ladies. Just so happens that I have an ingrown toenail, but no problem, I'm getting it sorted. It won't stop me from enjoying life, just as I've made the decision to not allow my mum and her bitchiness from enjoying life.

Just to be clear to you all, I may not fully understand what you're all going through with your relatives, but that's because I'm not in your personal situations. I am however, wanting to understand your situations as much as possible and I can only do that by chatting to you all and finding out what your dynamics and feelings are on your situations on any given day. I hope I have cleared that up, but if I do annoy/upset any of you, please don't be afraid to say so, as I'd like to apologise for any offence caused.

I guess enjoying life is about having the determination to do just that. It takes time to build it up to the strength that can take a good thrashing and it'll only affect it minutely and momentarily. I have found the determination to do the same with my self-confidence/esteem (building it up very slowly) has been harnessed in the same way. It has taken at least 15 years to get to where I am now, and hell will freeze over before I let life and people get me down for too long.

I'm all of a sudden feeling low. It's nothing unusual but am so weary of it. So fucking weary of it. All my fucking life I've felt depressed, I don't know of a 'content' mood even. Is this normal? I'm weary of the struggle. It's moments like these I wonder what would happen if I just died, no more struggle. Life shouldn't be like that should it?

I just don't want to keep struggling. I feel like I've fucked it all up. I've been struggling to get to this moment and then that moment, end of the day, end of the week. So weary. DH keeps saying 'we will just get past this XXX and then the pressure will be off/we can take a holiday/XYZZY'. Just heard it all before and I don't want to do it anymore. I shouldn't have had kids, I'm not normal enough. Christ knows what they will think when they're old enough, once they've worked out that Daddy's mentally ill and Mummy's depressed. We've hiked them around, changed schools 3 times, let me see, moved 7 times in their short lives. Run run run. Stupid me, now we're both ISolated, have we done the same with our kids? I've no close friends in this neck of the woods, since we hauled ourselves half way across the fucking country.

Is it normal to be permantly depressed? At least the edge is taken off the lows and the irritability with ADs. I've never known a period where I've been at least content for any length of time. Is this right? Why? It's fucking painful. I know my 2 DBs and Dsis are depressed too.

sorry i'm reading a bit - posting - then will read the rest - i have brain like a fish at the minute.

allingoodfaith - what happened a week ago has not just evaporated into thin air because a week has passed and you let her into your house! you are still perfectly bloody entitled to feel what you feel about and be angry and expect others to be horrified about it and any sane person to be shocked and see you as fully within in your rights to expect a reaction. nothing that is a series of behaviour over years has evaporated! think of those rape victims who come out years later - are there attackers less culpable because they weren't reported at the time? or should they be dismissed if the victim in the interim has been in the same house as them?

maybe a dramatic example but do you see what i mean? you don't have to have the perfect crime, red handed, fingers in the drawer, exact second to have the right to say enough. please trust yourself and your right to have boundaries and draw a line.

whitecandles what an awful thing to say to your own child, its so twisted. My heart goes out to you. I second that you should find somewhere else to stay if at all possible.

Well she bloody came round before dp seen her. She was knocking on the door for ages so I opened and said hi Maria come in I think we need to have a chat.

I said what I need to get off my chest and she was as calm anything. Asked for examples so I gave them she calmly denied everything. Even specific events she said she didn't know what I was talking sbout. I was tripping over words and seemed the un hinged one but did she didn't scream once.

She denied everything. In a 'what on earth are you talking about?' way as if I was crazy.

She fussed about with dd for a short while like nothing had been said. Then asked when she could see her. I said dp will deal with it. (That's a fight I'm not doing today)

And she left saying calmly " bye bye dd, nanna is going and look! I'm not slamming the door" and closed the door quietly.

I was shaking like a leaf. Told dp and he was visibly pleased I'd done it myself and said "maybe she will think about her actions now'

This is not the mil I have known for four years. I even called her a bully. She was just so bloody calm its unnerving.

Is this normal?

No it's not normal. Denying everything is a very, very bad sign.

Prepare for the hurricane, allin.

Keep calm yourself, talk very calmly with your husband and wait. You will survive DefCon1.

It's so weird. I've never known her to be so passive.maybe she was shocked?

She will be incandescent now. :-/

AllIn it sounds like she knows exactly what she was doing. She probably knows that staying calm will unnerve you and shake you up. AFAIK, the usual tactics are asking/demanding evidence/examples of their 'supposed' conduct on specified occasions, then denying that they ever happened or banging on about them happening so long ago that you should have moved on from them. It doesn't matter how long ago the incidents were, they were still actioned, so your feelings around those incidents still count IYSWIM.

Well done on confronting her about them. You've taken the first of many steps in combatting unwarranted and unnecessary abuse/contact from her. The one thing that sticks I my mind is when you said about her denying, I immediately thought about gaslighting, to try and make you think that maybe you imagined these episodes. You didn't, and don't let her sway you at all on that.

Toxic people rarely take the blame for anything they've done unless it's to make them look good or look like the sane person. Decent, non-toxic people would be horrified to learn of their toxic behaviour and would do what they can to apologise for any hurt caused.

It's possible that your DP's DM may not react at all (possibly to try and unnerve you even more), but the other side of this is that she may be telling everyone that you've accused her of this, that and the other and she doesn't know why you would spout such lies. Personally speaking, I'd leave her to it as any decent person would eventually come to you and ask what the truth it, so you tell them the truth. Her lies will eventually come out in the wash, because your version of events will make the most sense and therefore her lies will be exposed.

Is there any (even minute) possibility that she may not remember these particular events, or is she definitely of sound mind?

I think that if she had admitted to it, she would have been admitting that she was wrong and in the wrong and so to remain "right" she just denied any of it. My mum does this. She is never wrong, always right and I obviously "get it wrong" a lot.

But well done for standing up to her and getting it all out!! That is such a big step and such a brave thing to do! So well done!!

My DSis came round, took the borrowed item brought my clothes round took TM's house key. Said that DS still has loads I presents at TM's house. He did have one from my DBro but he took it back to the shop. Apparently I need to make the first move, he's furious and I owe him a huge apology (for cancelling he and his DP and their DD coming for Christmas dinner the day before Christmas).

The saga continues....

Opened my presents today.
My parents got me some very thoughtful & lovely presents this year. A little China jug shaped like a cow but really really tiny, and a fur (fake obviously) stole. Really kind, and actually clear signs of wanting to please me, but also very upsetting. For years they've not put any thought or caring into the token pressie I got, if indeed I got one (when other family members had many). Upsetting as this year just before Christmas my dad had a huge heart problem and is very very ill (as I posted before sorry For repeat, I wouldn't remember everyones individual stories). Didn't get to spend Christmas with them, except the hospital visiting. Sodding irony im sure. Hurt. I wonder why this year I was going to be allowed to be real?

denying everything is absolutely the norm.

it's all you're ever going to get.

the being calm is normal too... for toxics!

they are in total control of their emotions, and use them to control the situation.

you go in with conflict, they don't give it to you, because it's what you expect. they are also watching in horror as you are showing them that you've rumbled them.

this quiet (like in the best negotiations) forces you to fill it. this unsettles you and frightens you.

if and when they kick off, if you remain calm, they get wilder, they need the reaction, it's the string pulling that drives them.

remain calm with them, refuse to discuss a thing if they shriek.

i'd also patronise the shit out of the woman in future.... 'see, you can behave if you really put your mind to it', and 'I thought you had demonstrated previously that you don't slam doors?, have we had a relapse, or forgotten?'

allin how are you doing now?

.. and hissy! how was the date?

Learned something new today. I can finally put a word to one of my nut-job mother's things - minimizing!

It almost feels like a relief. It's a big enough thing that it's A Thing, so apparently my mother isn't the only who does it.

"There's nothing wrong with you." (doctor recommends a brain MRI)
"There's nothing wrong with you." (doctor says I need a breast biopsy)
"No one is looking at you." (peeping tom was arrested)
etc etc etc

It was always hard for me to explain this thing she does, but now I know it's called minimizing.

wrapdress my dm too, whenever I opened up about the dv I suffered, she'd talk about an old neighbour she had who was abused by her h, until he topped himself. this haappened back in the 70's, so determined was she NOT to give me my right to sympathy or whatever

minimising is what these dreadful people need to keep us down.

date was awesome, am spending NYE with him, dinner, wine, staying in...

he got me a present, beautiful earrings :)

he is smitten, so am i. this is a relationship we've both committed to. already.

I know it sounds crazy, but if you all knew us, our similarities and the boxes we both tick in each other, you'll not doubt it. we are the missing pieces in a jigsaw.

Yay hissy!!!!

Glad to hear the date went well Hissy!

All okay over here. I feel relieved to have my stuff back and that she has nothing else to hold over me though I'm not sure what to do about my DBro. I tried sending a text but it wouldnt send though I'm not certain telling him how much she slags and off and criticises he and his DP's parenting and domestic skills is the right thing to do.

When I think about my childhood, how things changed when my dad left and everything that's happened since, it's easy to see how things have gotten to this point, the steps that I've taken to escape from TM nastiness before and her need to have an upper hand and to feel dominant/ in control.

Just trying to process it all now and move on from it. I've seen a friend today and had a nice chat, slowly getting back to a reality, one with support and friends rather than just the pissed off siblings.

At least it's going to be a nice way to start the new year

Lovley to hear Hissy, wishing you all luck and fun! :)

seza glad to hear you got your stuff back and are starting to see clear air through the nightmarish clouds. Like you say, nice way to start the new year =)

new beginnings for us all, let 2015 be the year we take back our lives for ourselves and focus on what's important.

i.e NOT toxic people :)

Ach Hissy, I'm so chuffed for you and your lovely date , you deserve to be treated well and supported.

That also goes for all you good ladies as well. Let's hope 2015 is the start of a fantastic year for you all and may the happy events outnumber the bad ones in a huge way.

Seza, let your DBro stew in his own juices. If he was a loving and supportive Dbro, he should at least ring you and ask if your OK and also try understanding why you cancelled Christmas with the family. Instead he rants about how put out he is and demands an apology for YOU not feeling up to doing Christmas. I mean seriously, any decent person would be concerned as to why you weren't feeling up to it. Most decent people I know would plan something else to do.

What would he do if you were ill with the flu and definitely not feeling up to it? Would he still act the same way, throwing a hissy fit because you cancelled and 'ruined' Christmas, then demand an apology? If yes, then he needs to stop acting like an entitled sod and wind his neck in.