"But we took you to stately homes!!!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

It's December 2014, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
October 2014

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

pocket /salute your honesty and courage. I know a little of how hard it is to face yourself and to change. Hat off to you.

What pocketsaviour said. It's bloody hard and it's a huge deal and it's terrifying before you take that first step.

Evening good ladies. How is everyone this evening?

Pocket when we've behaved atrociously toward others, it's hard to reflect on what we've done, but the shame we feel about it makes that part of our past even harder to swallow. Whether our behaviour is a result of past abuse, heavy drinking, drug use or a combination of any of the above 3, we have chosen to sort our feelings out on the subject. We harbour feelings that may stop us from moving on and becoming better people........not only to our OH's, but mainly to our DC. This may well include having to contact past friends and apologising to them for our behaviour toward them.

I have allowed myself to feel immense shame and embarrassment about my actions, but I figured out that I was a product of my upbringing and that the very heavy drinking was my way of trying to escape from the memories. At times they were overwhelming and I broke down sobbing that I'd be unable to be a good mum to DS and DD, but I decided that enough was enough and I'd do what I could to be the best mum to our DC that I could. It meant I had to embrace the scary prospect of facing my deeply buried fears of being like my mum and allowing those fears to diminish into something that WAS me back then, but isn't going to be me in the future. The key part of my move forward was accepting what I did and leaving it in the past. I wouldn't have been able to move forward until I had done so, so I took the bull by the horns and got on with it.

You can probably tell that I'm a pretty cheery lass, and I am, but it has taken years of self-reflection, letting go and being kind to people. Unfortunately, there are some people who will take, take, take and never give back. When you stop giving to them, they may throw epic hissy fits, cry, do the old 'woe is me' party trick and blame you for the state they're in. Nothing is EVER their fault and we seem to cause it by not giving in to them anymore. They are literally like tantrumming toddlers again because we have stopped giving into their demands.

Apologies if my essay doesn't make sense, the wet stuff between my ears has turned to mush

iwonder about those dogs too.. maybe its because they were bred to rip bears apart in fighting rings, and the owners that relish dogs with horrendous weight in their bite. the SBTs i mean. Its the things that these dogs were bred for that put people off buying them and attract others to them sadly for dangerous purposes. The image they have. no wonder people worry about them, but any dog can be a lethal weapon in the wrong hands. I know a collie that killed someone, but we've all heard of staffies and rotties and the rest that have killed children. no wonder it scares parents who hear this.

I thought I was reading the wrong thread there for quite a minute hearing 'the defence of the SBT' blog

sorry others so far i haven't had time to read further down yet, but yes, me laughing at that post too

i was very interested in what has been said about being able to be a good pareent, despite it all, and does abuse always breed further abuse? The research suggests all manner of convolutions, but that men are more likely to become abusers, because they possess greater power generally, culturally, societal, financial, etc., and women become hard pressed being pregnant and tied with vulnerable baby, also when tied to a man in marriage? I don't know, but those are the classic times that abuse escalates and power shifts subtley even if not full blown abuse at that point.

I have experienced both, i.e. the hissy fits and trantrums, tears as a result of not giving in to it, and then the upping of intimidations and physical threats of violence, the hissy fitting the female, the violence the male. It seems that its a bit of a classic.

I might've conceded to my mother, i might have been made to feel responsible for her, now feel sad for her suffering, but have let go of her long time time, whereas i am terrified of the male abuser who never lets up, continually intimidates with a will of iron to never stop, and ups the abuse the moment there's a sniff of not scarey enough to keep control. They are such different things, and clearly gendered.

really agree here that you grow from being vulnerable and letting these things out. Everyone has surely done stuff they are not happy about, alright it might not have been criminal activity, i suppose drugs, not happy at the amoutn of thoose i took a loooooong time ago, but i was harmed more than harming. yet i was abused by father, mother, brothers, sister and cousins.

Facing the pain, and the best thing ever was going NC and feeling the pain of all that, really made the difference.

I go back to my mother saying to me 'you will understand when you have DC of your own', well maybe abusers think 'ah yeah, i do understand', whereas i thought 'you fucking evil bitch'!!! get you all away from my babies!

good to see you, even if only the 1/8th left of you! hopefully that 1/8th doing a lot better than the whole yesterday!

Meerka ^ keep forgetting to name-check

Misc so sorry to hear, it must be incredibly hard always to be torn by such big health decisions between your own and your DS's.

I wonder again, whether you are getting enough support? Mum's must all be familiar, well those on their own for sure, with being ill at times and still having to tend to DC despite it. I certainly have, and any with FWs for partners will have too! Those without families/abusive ones. In your situation this seems a daily reality. I don't think you have to be 'at' the school all the time to be an adult figure there. You can do this by email conversations and over the phone (going backto a previous comment i recalled).

take care, the crying will stop, and this will pass.. little steps, and keep reaching out for help. Back to the GP? CRISIS? how about support groups for your situation particularly?

(((hugs)))

Ds new teacher was lovely. Rare smile :) do you mind if I tell you about it here? I know it's not exactly on topic but, well, it matters to me and you've all been so lovely this last month.

Vague justifying link is that when I was growing up I was always utterly on my own in the 'outside world', and unguided, unprotected by my parents, not even able to learn by example. Just the burden of covering up the reality of my family life, and the pain of being isolated, exposed and ill equipped to know how to even pretend to be a human. And I couldn't cope, found school life intolerable. Was the odd one, the picked on one, and the one without a voice, or rights really. And I was utterly alone. At primary school I used to cry all the time, for 'no reason', just couldn't stop the tears leaking out or the pain and terror getting out. So I was told off and bullied by teachers and children alike.

Aside: Why the fuck did no one think about why I would be either on the verge of tears, or sit/ stabd there with silent tears running down my face at least some part of every day. I hope that's improved anyway. I suppose I would have lied anyway if anyone had asked. But I was labelled spoilt (ha!), and weak (carrying a burden heavier than most adults), and weird (well yes, but why was I weird, anyone ever bloody think about that?!), and worst of all, a mummy's girl desperate to be at home all the time! Ugh.

Soooo, it's one of the things I've got to do differently, and my illness / rubbish body has stopped me from being as present and 'with him' as I'd wanted. Fucking scares me, that Ds might have to ever experience a tiny moment of what I had to. Especially because of me. I find that thought intolerable.

Btw I think that's one of the things that sets us apart from the parents who carry on the cycle of abuse. We I've been thinking about this all day / tonight and so more on that later if that's ok ...

And so, back to today. The teacher is going to find out what support might be available for ds (& me) through school. For bereavement and also for ds dealing with having a disabled mummy (& potentially having the same condition, and that his grand father and aunt all died because of it - not that he knows any of that yet but building the right foundations so he can try and make sense of it when he does know).

I just wanted her to understand what ds was going through, and be a bit thoughtful / compassionate when he means over upset about little things at school, that it's really not that. She got that instantly, no explaining, no persuading, no advocating, no justifying. Just a sensible conversation, in which she was instantly thinking of ways to connect with ds without giving him 'special treatment' or unnerving him.

So look ds out out for a cake on the way home, as didn't feel so drained and depleted as expected. I know that's a mirage and it took exactly the same physical strain (as we talked for 30 mins or so, just constructively!), but beggars can't be choosers and I'll take any fleeting ray of sunshine that comes my way.

Ds ran straight up to me and buried his face in my leg and wouldn't look up for ages - I think that helped show that although ds may be seeking ok at school, that might not be the whole picture. And the poor thing must have been on tenterhooks waiting 20-30 mins for me and his teacher to finish 'chatting', and he asked immediately we got outside what had happened with his Show and Tell - which is what he thought was the reason I had come, that and meeting his teacher 'that I've heard such lovely things about', so it must have been playing on his mind. So lots of reassurance and quotes from teacher, and I could see his little shoulders relax.

I'm hoping he's understood

Ds promptly had a tearful evening as he was over excited (& probably relieved I was being a 'normal mummy', sorting out school worries, picking him up from school and sitting in a cafe with him). But I didn't feel so guilty or weighed down cos I know I've done a positive thing for him and it's ok to have some normal tears and tantrums.

Damn I deleted a bit by accident:

'I'm hoping he's understood' ... That I'm there for him when it counts, and he's not on his own.

Misc i hope you really know how different your life /childhood was, to how he is experiencing his mummy? You talk of all the differences you make and that you will not let him suffer in the same way.

There have been illnesses that threaten my DCs lives, from thet get-go sadly, life is so cruel. But you reached out!! and you got a really good response, and you spoke to him about this and are helping him so much, I think you are so very very hard on yourself, and maybe in speaking to a society/charity for your condition you can receive additional support for parenting under your particular constraints.

Its working out the fears you carry, and resolving them for you that will have a huge impact positively on him. DC just follow our role, and if they can see you are relaxed and generally supportive, generally try to be consistent and there for him, he will do ok. Its not about making up for all your past hurts for him, its just about now and knowing that you are looking after yourself will make him feel secure.

He won't always feel understood. So much pressure on yourself to be supermum at a time of great difficult. The phenomenal strength you have to do these things for him is awesome, and you need to give yourself a lot of credit for what you do do, and less of a hard time for what you don't or can't manage.

You do sound so much stronger, and yesterday sounded like a really really good day! you achieved a lot for your efforts.

very sad to hear that your DS will potentially have a life-limiting condition, are you alone with this? can you access specific services to counsel you, or a helpline even? A huge amount to handle alone.

sending you strength xx

I haven't read through the whole thread, sorry. Just needed my voice to be heard.

My mum, who haven't seen for two years, has been telling people her 25 year marriage to my stepdad has ended because of me.

Because of me!

That is it, that is the thing I have to say.

There is more, obviously, but that is the thought that wont leave. I am not surprised she would say it, but it really hurts that people actually believe her! It's not clear if she's saying it was my fault, or if she did it 'for' me. I suppose because both will be true.

Pocket I think what you describe is very common. We have to go on a journey and it's going to get worse before we can see the light, that there is an alternative way to live and behave, and then things improve as we begin to heal. I didn't do exactly what you describe, but I did go on to have 2 consecutive abusive/destructive relationships with arse-hole guys. Dead-beat pot-heads too, what a coincidence! Same as my "mother's" OH!

Thank God you had your epiphany and began the process of self-healing and transforming your life. Otherwise your future would have looked pretty bleak. But then there's those that stay on the path to self-destruction.....But you certainly demonstrated guts, as you say. Are you currently NC with your parents?

Chiggers I defy anyone, who comes under the huge umbrella of "Dysfunctional Family" ( with it's many variables) to become a totally well-adjusted and happy adult without going through some sort of learning/healing process. It sounds like you acknowledge what you were like in the past, it was a necessary phase ( a manifestation of the pain and psychological damage done by faulty/abnormal parenting) resulting from your fkd up upbringing, but you've come to terms with it and made your peace.

What is it you're studying, btw?

Sugar So are you NC with all of your family now? Your mam sounds totally unfit to be a mother. The transference of guilt/blame thing is such an old, boring ( but effective ) trick. "Wait til you have kids" Really? So that you can actually do the polar opposite of how your fkd up mother treat you and cherish them, prioritise their safety and wellbeing and nurture them like a mother should do automatically? Jesus....It isn't some shitty, torturous role that you have to just struggle through and take pot luck that your kid's gonna turn out OK and love you back unconditionally. You reap what you sow, just like anything in life.

They expect you to be their lap dog, unquestioning, unfaltering devotion must be demonstrated.....NOT! They're fecking warped as feck aren't they? It's like they treat us as non-human, in many respects, cos we aren't allowed to query or challenge things that happened in the past that concern us. Don't they get it? Adult kids have memories from when they were young kids!!! They take no responsibility for their faulty programming of us, when we were young. And they don't like the result. Esp when it involves us challenging them and not acting like some programmed robot ("Hey that wasn't in the manual!! Trouble-shooting......") We rebel and upset them because we are humans and we have free will and a spirit that cannot be contained or controlled. They hate that.

It actually scares me silly sometimes just how influencial our role is as a parent and how EVERYTHING we say and do impacts on our kids' development. And here's me just worrying about how my daughter doesn't eat enough veggies! That was before coming on these boards

sunflower I too haven't spoken to my, now disowned mam, in 2yrs. Are there other family members that you can find out the details from? How on earth would she come to that conclusion?? Smells like BS to me. Have you always been treat as the scapegoat?

I wouldn't take the bait though. Sounds like she's dying for you to react, to play into her hands possibly. Stay NC and maintain your dignified silence, I would.

How was your relationship with your stepdad?

The thing you have to be careful of are the "go-betweeners" Things can get lost in 3rd party, Chinese whispers. Are there any family members who sympathise with you and wouldn't go running to her with some twisted version of what you've said?

Can I step into this thread ( Ive name changed FYI) and ask a question
My emotionally abusive parents never ever contact me, all the calls emails texts are from me , yet they wanted to be back in touch again
(I had been NC for some years but my having kids made them try to make some rapprochement - and I caved in)
are they really just "not wanting to bother you , you're so busy".or is this a control thing..?

PLease dont say "ask them", my current boundaries are the weather and how the kids are doing - its far far into where i dont want to go..

Chimi, I'm studying Psychology of all things, but I want to be able to help people develop the emotional tools they need to become better at dealing with what life throws at them. Simply because I care about people .

Self-reflection can be a scary because the process of accepting how our families are can be embarrassing/shameful. Some of us will be bewildered by the way our family members have treated us in the past and can't seem to get past the idea that they didn't get the family they should have got. I admit it was hard for me to reflect, but I figured that I needed to do it in order to be able to move on. Acceptance is a major part of that process of healing. When we accept that our family members aren't the norm, then we tend to find it easier to accept that it was our reactions to their behaviour that made our childhoods a minefield that we couldn't escape from, until older. We also find that we realise that we only played a minor part in our childhoods being miserable. We were only children and learning to do what we could to protect our physical/mental and emotional selves as much as possible IYSWIM.

alwaysleftguessing

Its a control thing on your parents part.

Your boundaries re your parents are still way too low and they are taking advantage of this. Even only sticking to the weather etc is too much; you really need to have no contact with them at all.

Your main error here was to allow any contact between them and your own family unit. Your parents have not altered fundamentally and will mess similarly with your childrens heads as they have done with your own head given any opportunity. They were not going to behave any better with your own children. Toxic parents become toxic grandparents; they were awful to you and will be awful to your children. Some grandparents really should not be allowed any access to their grandchildren.

The website Lightshouse explains this further:-

Some toxic people will let you leave a relationship without caring one bit. They never really cared about you, and if you don’t want to be used and abused anymore, they’re simply on to the next person before you can say, “Bye!”

Others, however…

Others hoover.

The toxic hooverer doesn’t truly care about you either — they just want to keep you around to feed on emotionally, and when you decide to go no contact, they don’t plan on letting you get away that easily.

Many hooverers have traits of borderline, narcissistic, antisocial or histrionic personality disorders. . People with Dependent Personality Disorder may also hoover.

Hoovering is manipulation to gain control over your choice to distance yourself, and typically takes the following forms:

•Ignoring your requests to break off the relationship and attempting to continue on as if nothing has changed.
.
•Asking you when you’re going to “get over it” and return to your past actions.
.
•Sending you a fake apology to give you hope that things have changed.
.
•Trying to trick you into contact by saying someone needs you, is sick, or in trouble.
.
•Triangulating with others, communicating things to you through them.
.
•Saying they’re worried about you, concerned about whether you’re okay, need to know where you are, etc.
.
•Sending unwanted cards, messages and gifts, sometimes gifts for your children, as they know you are likely to feel guilty about keeping a gift from your kids. Don’t allow this – exposing your children to manipulation is far worse!
.
•Returning old items you left behind.
.
•Baiting you with drama games.
.
•Contacting you about “important” things they “forgot” and suddenly have to tell you.

Attempts to pull you back into a toxic relationship are not valid expressions of caring and concern — they are attempts to regain control over your behavior. Beware — hoovering attempts are often disguised as caring, loneliness, hurt, desperation, fear, illness, and other things designed to play on your sympathies and pull you back. Abusers know that pulling on heartstrings works very well. (In the case of BPD, it may be simply out-of-control emotions and fear of abandonment more than an attempt to control you per se; however you will likely still feel that you are not being allowed to end a relationship you no longer want).

If your wish to end a relationship is not being honored, whatever a toxic person thinks will work best on you will be what they try, so when one angle doesn’t work, they will try another, and another, ramping up their efforts until it seems they might never stop. Typically, hoovering DOES stop if the person being hoovered does not fall for the hooverer’s tricks.

The sooner the person being hoovered completely ignores everything and does not respond to anything at all in any way, the sooner the toxic person finally understands that they do not have the control. Some toxic people may still make the occasional attempt on holidays, anniversaries of events, etc. Don’t bite the bait. Simply ignore any attempts.

If you have already made it clear that you do not want a relationship (or if it’s obvious) then DON’T ever contact the person doing the hoovering to tell them to stop again, or how angry you are. That is a reward. They will be thrilled to receive your attention and pleased to know that their efforts have paid off by snagging you, so they’ll be contacting you even more!

If you have told someone you do not want contact, and they continue to bother you, the police can assist you. If you ever feel that someone you are trying to break off a relationship with may be capable of more than simply annoying you mildly, contact your local police for assistance. They are well-accustomed to dealing with skillful manipulators and have many smart ways of handling them, so do not hesitate to ask for help. (And remember, you have nothing to be ashamed about; you’re not the one behaving badly, and the police are there to protect you from abuse.)

Welcome to the thread Always, here, have a wee

You can chat away til your heart's content. Most of us have gone NC with toxic relatives to save our sanity and also to protect our DC from the toxic, underhand behaviour they display toward us. When I say underhand, I mean that when NC is broken (for whatever reason), we may have to deal with those relatives using sneaky, sly ways of getting back at us as a type of punishment, for not doing as they bid IYSWIM. The relatives, more than likely, will have been engaging in this behaviour in the past and it is one of many reason NC was established in the first place. For protection for our own families, from their poisonous ways.

I would say that you really need to take the time to think about things. Sometimes toxic relatives will use different tactics to try and reel you back in slowly, then revert back to their previous form once they 'have' you IYSWIM. So be very wary about what they are doing ATM.

As for saying they want contact and not contacting you, well, they are doing the slow reeling and ensuring you do all the contacting so they don't have to. It may not seem like much ATM, but it can lead to you being back in your previous position as whipping boy IYSWIM. I can only say what I would do in your situation and that is to not contact them until they contacted me. Your relationship ATM is one sided........with you doing the work and your parents sitting back and doing nothing. If you refuse to contact them and they phone you asking why you haven't been in touch for ages, tell them straight that a relationship is going to take them doing the same amount of contacting as you are doing. If they're not willing to put in equal effort, then their reaction over the phone (possibly major ranting/abuse) should tell you whether you need to go NC. You did it before and you can do it again.

I have to go now, but hope you find it easier to make a decision about your predicament. There will be others along to give another POV on your situation, and help you see things about it that I possibly haven't pointed out.

always welcome! It's a control thing. Hissy translated it very well from narc speak, but it's a way to make you feel guilty and so control you.
I think you'd do well to rethink contact at all, especially as you've previously been NC.

Thanks for the hoovering explanation as there's lots of that coming my way from DM

thanks for the replies, and the time you have taken.
I really appreciate it as I cant see whats happening or what the point of it is...It doesn’t feel like hoovering, I’ve had experience of that and its still on-going from another family member - it really seems like a power play - but maybe I need to look at it more carefully
or perhaps just not at all..wouldn’t it be great just to be able to stop wanting to understand and just put it in a box and throw it away

Trust your instincts, always. Very occasionally people -do- change, but your instincts have been developed for a reason. I think that if people really are changing, it feels differnet. Healthier. Non - controlling.

stc how is your little one now? out of hospital I hope and feelign better.

chimi you asked how people can become abusers when they have been abused and know how it feels like. This fascinates me. I don't think there's any one answer. It's complex, but I think that some people break it because they work bloody hard to break it. Others just sort of naturally have temperaments that are just not the same as their parents and can break the pattern naturally (lucky buggers).

There's a big group in the middle though where we work off the examples we are given. So, given a bad example there's two things that work against you: firstly the strong but probably submerged negative emotions and secondly the example of how to behave ... ie abusively. Both go very deep and the combination of the two is kind of lethal. You can mean to do differnetly but your own buried fury kind of attaches itself to your deeply laid mental framework of what is normal in childrearing ... result is nasty.

Then (i think!) there's a smaller group of people who are just plain mean and no matter how lovely their parents are, they turn out mean. Sadly. Some of personality is inborn, they reckon. So they might have good parents but their own kids are in for a tough time :s

Just my thoughts!