"But we took you to stately homes!!!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

It's December 2014, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
October 2014

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Meerka I hear you re drink. Not that I'm an alchy but it's a slippery slope in becoming a habit, for me. But it's not wine (gives me migraines) but lager, of all things!

Could only hack a cpl halves before moving here, so gassy and bloating. But it's so prevalent in Holland, plus it's cheaper than water in the shops, I can get thru about 6 cans/btls now

Not good for the sleep, head or the muffin top. Not to mention liver..yikes! I always sleep much better when I've not drank the night before and if I stop for a week or more my waist always shrinks. So that's my incentive....

After the Carnival!

Oh yeah, my mam, if not quite an alcoholic, was seriously dependant on drink. She used to buy it in secret and stash it round the house. When I was a kid I'd open my wardrobe or the airing cupboard and there'd be cans of Special Brew stashed in there.

Weekends were always, extra strong lager and a 2L bottle of strong cider, all to herself. She was a car crash. Coupled with her idiot husband getting stoned, I would always retreat to my bedroom. Usually when the Hawkwind album would come out!

oh lovelies!

Meerka you are doing extremely well! it might feel scarey, but drinking in very moderate amounts, like having a half glass witha meal every night or so, can be beneficial. The dangerous thing is the 'holiday syndrome' drink... like having none and then drinking a load, thats a big shock to the system and it won't cope well.

Stress is very bad for you too. So that need to enjoy a sit down with a glass of wine and a movie or good book, what could be better!? So long as you are making your focus the movie, or the books, and the sit down and the relaxing breathing, and then the glass of wine, in that order. You will always put other health benefits before the wine.

Chimi I see an alcoholic when you talk of your mum stashing cans of SB around the house, and thats horrid to grow up with, really sorry Does sound like you have a handle on what level of drinking you think's ok. I am wary of that muffin-top waist too... is the more dangerous of the weights, the carrying of apple/pear shape weight. My muffin-top has to go! plus i don't like the look of it, i don't feel good about it, i think more because of the health rather than the look per se, as its winter and noone else knows in jumpers

Now home with my gorgeous family.

Relieved funeral is over. Was given my nans engagement ring which was just so amazing- feel I have a part of her with me.

Since seeing dm at funeral I've realised how much I don't want to see her or have contact with her. Her concern for me seemed so fake. I know she'll never change.

So true that alcohol can make dealing with stress easier although can turn into a slippery slope

Whilst at funeral I also saw how my auntie has a serious alcohol problem- needs to drink everyday and complaining recently of breathlessness whilst walking short distances and very concerned she may have a heart problem.

for any of you who need it today

worry Im so glad that you got a ring of hers. Means a lot, doesn't it. I have my adoptive mother's wedding ring and a photo of her. They went into the labour room when the babies were born, my mother in law looked after them for me.

It sounds like overall it went okay. A turning point emotionally but maybe a good one. Clarity of mind.

That's lovely meerka.

Yes, definitely a turning point. Emotionally drained but things feel a little clear now re:my mum.

awww Meerka how lovely.

good to hear thats its done now Worry and you are feeling clearer about things. It really is a turning point to see things that way!

i am enjoying a

after a particularly difficult day, and realising that my mother wasn't good enough. Difficult day for other reasons, but recalled something she had said in her own defence (she'd been reading a book) and she told me she wasn't perfect, but she was good enough. Sad isn't it. I don't think she was good enough. She left us to the mercy of our aggressive intimidating father, and neglected us, making us her carers. Even today i see my brother being so duty bound, and me wishing he wouldn't be. Oh well. he again, seems just grateful to have been noticed. Dear me oh bloody awful frankly.

I know i am talking in tongues a bit, but would take too long to go into details. Just had a very shaken up day because of a very weird guy today which left me feeling quite violated.

I dont' know where that realisation came from, as i don't feel like i'm so upset about it all, but still stuff comes up from time to time.

Good evening all you good ladies , how is everyone? I hope you're all coping and doing OK as can be expected, given your situations.

I have to admit that I was a borderline alcoholic and used to get through at least 2 bottles of wine a day (with maybe lager or cider on top of that). It was hard giving it up, but my saviour was the thought of having to take the kids to hospital and smelling of drink. I felt that the Drs treat the DC would frown on me drinking, so I cut right back. In the last 4 years I've had about 3 glasses of wine and in all honesty, I think I'll go teetotal as I don't get anything out of drinking now except a horrible pissed feeling that I don't like.

Stopping drinking takes time, effort and a good or right frame of mind to be successful. You can do it if you really want to, but you have to want to and be totally determined to make it through otherwise you may end up failing. Some do it by cutting down by one glass a day and sticking to 1 or 2 a day for 3-4 days a week. Others need to stop and go cold turkey to have any success. There's an old saying I go by now, which is that 1 glass is too much and 100 isn't enough. For those who have gone from problem drinking/alcoholics to teetotal for their own good, it simply means that just 1 drink could send them onto slippery slope again. If you find that it would probably be the case, then it may be the best option to stay off the drink.

Due to cutting right back on the drinking and smoking, I now find that I can manage to climb the hill I live on, without too much effort. I've only been living here for just over 4 months, but in that time, I've had my BP and pulse rate measured and I have a BP of 100/70 and a pulse rate (PR) of 58 after exercise (my normal PR is around 45-46), so I'm fitter than I though I'd be. TBH it quite shocking how fit a person can get after quitting booze and fags. Don't get me wrong, I eat quite a bit and a fair amount of junk, but I'm cutting down and eating more fruit and veg. Having 2 staffies to drag me around everywhere helps a bit .

Hello all,

worry so glad you got your nan's ring and that you're safe home. Sorry you had to put up with your TM's fake concern.

ezekiel welcome. You've chosen an interesting screen name considering the last sentiments expressed in your first post! You have certainly been through the mill and I'm glad to hear you will talk to your sister. It sounds like she will be a very strong ally for you. I was also shocked to read your DF's revelations about your GF (I think this was maternal GF, is that right?) and I wonder what prompted him to reveal this information now?

chimi that sounds like my BIL's DM. Everyone knew she "liked a drink" but she collapsed one day and was taken into hospital where she was found to have liver failure. When BIL and his DSD went back to her house they found bottles hidden everywhere: under the sink, bottom of the laundry basket, back of the wardrobe, under the bed. Christ knows how much she was drinking. BIL suddenly had some revelations about his childhood - like you, he retreated to his bedroom a lot as a child/teen and tried to ignore it all -and he very much displays a lot of common behaviours of adult children of alcoholics.

Glad you got your Nan's ring, worker and hope this is the beginning of a new found strength in your NC with TM.
Cam across this www.lightshouse.org/acon-page.html#axzz3R6Dnu7nC about adult children of narcs and have been nodding away in recognition about the description. Thought it might be interesting.
Hope everyone is OK, must go to bed.

xx

I don't think I was ever terrible with drinking alcohol, but it was past time to cut down and it was much harder than I thought it would be . Started cutting back from 1 bottle a night because of husband's nagging and the kids coming along. Mostly it is now 1 small glass of wine every 3 days or so, maybe 2, which is a level I'm very happy with. But by the end of the week, oh god I want to drink some wine so much and I can't keep it in moderation.

Ho hum, time to step back, not to beat myself up and to pick myself up again; it's not the end of the world, it's just that next Friday is time to try to do it better, again. And again, if need be.

chiggers what you say makes a lot of sense to me. it's 9 mnths since the Squeak was born after a horrible and dangerous preg and I've been starting the 5:2 diet again, swimming once a week and gym once a week. More veggies, cutting out the crisps that had crept in. It really does make me feel better. I'm doing it for myself and the kids and husband, because when I get better, it helps everyone ... specially the kids. So much more to give them.

pocket it sounds like your BIL had a much harder time than he realised. I hvent read much about adult children of alcoholics but it sounds like a good thing to do.

its such a shame to have to expend such energy battling in this way with alcohol, the only thing i can compare it with was trying to stop smoking. I was quite a professional, and it just never let go of me! i would buy the weakest of the weak cigarettes and then put sellotape around the filter to block the holes up that let the smoke out! was horrific time trying to kick it.

ha ! my name came from the FW ex ... sugar is what others see/saw, and thorns is what i got.

G2B thanks for that link. I sat there reading it and thinking "I tick most of these boxes, yet my TM doesn't fit in the N box. How so?"

Then I realised I had two parents and the other one was a child-molesting narcissist.

Funny how the main abuser has been out of my life for so long (26 years and counting) that I no longer even notice his absence. Yet the parent who all along I've wanted to believe had my best interests at heart is now causing me so much inner turmoil.

I want to send her an email today telling her I need a break from our relationship. The trouble is, I don't want it rebounding on Dsis, who herself is feeling very low. Waiting for my Dsis to contact me and let me know if she feels up to refusing any communications, or whether she wants me to keep TM in a holding pattern for a couple of weeks.

Spoke to my sister. I am not alone, it seems. Which is not unalloyed good news, and I want you to imagine the drawl that goes with that understatement.

Ezekiel I know how you feel. It's horrible that anyone has to suffer through shit like this. But now you do know that you have support from someone close to you.

Have just sent my TM a very long email telling her I don't want contact for at least a few months, and detailing some examples of how she has affected my mental health.

Spoke to Dsis earlier and she is prepared in case of any backlash on her - she's actually away with work all next week so will be removed from it anyway and my TM is far too cheap to make international calls! Dsis feels it's absolutely the right thing for me to do, especially at this point when I'm awaiting surgery which is going to be very hard and mean a complete life style change.

(Have not told TM about the surgery for the exact reason that it will become all about her and her anxieties. I've got visions of her turning up at the ward just as they're about to put me under and ripping out IVs.)

Having pressed "Send" I now feel assailed by anxiety and guilt. "How dare I upset my mother?" Need to hang onto the fact that I have a right to feel my feelings, to feel my pain and anger, and I have a right to express that.

I haven't pulled any punches, but I haven't sworn at her or called her an idiot or a bitch or a fucking lunatic. I've said: You did/said this. This is how it made me feel. How could you think that was okay?

In the end I asked her to seek help to change her attitudes and behaviours and I didn't want to hear any bullshit about "it's too late for me" (something she's been saying for the last 20 years) or that it's too expensive, because if she'd faced up to her fears in the first place we wouldn't be where we are now. I suggested she find a counsellor with experience in working with adult children of alcoholics. (Because I think most of her issues stem from her alcoholic, wife-beating DF, and the way her DM brought them up in fear and denial. I have huge sympathy for that, but it didn't give her the right to pass her fear and pain onto me. I would never do that to my DS.)

I have hope that she may choose to change - she doesn't read as a narcissist, I think she's somewhere in "Cluster C" - the more anxiety-based personality disorders. And I believe that those disorders can be treated, if the person wants to change.

I am prepared for a barrage of phone calls to the landline (will unplug it), texts and calls to my mobile (can block her number), emails (will send them to archive) and/or letters. Of these, a letter is the most likely. I'm also prepared for her to try to enlist other members of the family - my prepared response to that is "Thanks for being concerned, but this issue is between me and mum and I don't want to discuss it with anyone else."

I am also prepared for total silence, which would be the first time she's ever respected my boundaries - except it won't be from respect, it'll be because she's sukling :confused:

Am feeling a very strange urge to go to church. I'm an atheist, have been for 30-odd years!

ezekiel so sorry that the conversation with your sister revealed what the worst. it must have been a comfort for her to have been able to speak about it with you and to know that you are both together in this.

pocket it sounds like you've planned and executed this letter very well indeed. I hope that the backlash isn't too bad. Worst case might she turn up on your doorstep?

Some Cluster C's can be treated, some are more difficult. It depends on the disorder ... And on the willingness to change as you say.

Thank you Meerka. Well of course she has my address but she doesn't have a car anymore and gets very phobic and panicky about going anywhere she doesn't really know. (She has come to my current place a few times but I've always picked her up.)

Not three hours since sending the mail, she sent a one-line reply, "Thank you for replying and explaining to me. Don't know what else to say at this moment, x"

So, immediate ignoring of my boundaries... Although TBH if I had a mail like that off my DS, I would probably reply to say "I will give you all the space you need, and willing to do anything to make this right" or similar.

What's pissed me off is stroppy texts from my BIL saying I shouldn't have sent this mail when DSis is feeling fragile and about to go off abroad for work and will be worried about what's going on back home and getting hassled by TM! I told him that I had told TM not to contact Dsis, he replied that she would completely ignore that (and he's probably right). I said I had checked in with DSis before sending it and she had said she was fine and I should go ahead, and it was not fair for him to try to put guilt on me for finally putting my own mental health and needs first, about something that doesn't even directly concern DSis. Then he texted back and gave a sort-of apology and said he was very worried about my DSis.

It just goes to highlight, doesn't it, the totally dysfunctional dynamic this family has. He came from a toxic family of his own (DM alcoholic, dad walked out then died quite young, didn't get on with DSD, older bro was golden child) but has been with my DSis so long (coming up for 18 yrs!) that he has kind of absorbed our dynamic on top of his own issues.

It's so ridiculous to think that I, as a human being with needs and wants and as a real person, should be expected to stuff down my feelings and not upset my mother, because then someone else might get it in the neck.

I don't blame my BIL too much because a) he's on the ASD spectrum and b) he's very protective of his DW but I was a bit "Et tu, Brute?"

He also said "If she doesn't want to change, then asking her to go to therapy is pointless, she'll just be resentful". I was like, dude, I KNOW, but I really want her to change and she needs help to do that. With all my heart I want her to change and for us to have a loving relationship. But I think the chances of that are small, honestly

I might go to church tomorrow. There is one right next to my office building. I feel a bit weird that I'm even thinking about it?!

at worst it can only be a small waste of time, at best you might get some comfort. Why not? Even quiet time sitting can help your head one way or another.

Your BIl is in a difficult position but after years of appeasing TM, it was automatic reaction to glare at the person rocking the boat ... ie you. But hopefully once he's thought about it and taken it in that your sister agrees with you, he'll thoroughly support you.

It does highlight, as you said, that your mother completely ignored your wishes, twice over - in replying to you and in contacting your sister.

SCT Muffin tops R Us Yes she probably was an alchy. She would go to the corner shop every night for drink and get me and my half bro sweets and crisps. Every night! Must've been to salve her conscience. Needless to say I wasn't the healthiest of kids! What with that and the Pop Man........No diet pop in those days.

Chiggers WOW that is a Bp/HR that a pro athlete would be proud of! I used to look after patients under General Anaesthetic ( in my nursing days) that had higher readings than that, so props to you That just shows the dramatic effect that cleaning up one's lifestyle can have. I need to take a leaf out of your book!

Meerka I shall join you on a Clean Living kick on the Mon 15th Feb. I can totally relate to how much better it feels, and therefore affects everyone else, when I'm being kinder and treating myself with more respect. I've always been an emotional eater and since becoming a SAHM, an emotional drinker too. Not loads but with the regularity for it to become habit forming. Only normal strength lager, not the hard stuff

Time to prioritise the old Health and Wellbeing I think. But isn't it always the actual starting that's the hardest? Goddammit..........

Pocket That's interesting. What are the common behaviours of adult kids of alcoholics? Yes I'm sure she stashed them in other places that kids are less likely to go. So possibly the linen basket was one of them. Oh yeah, I remember the twin tub washer was another hidey hole!

I'm totally behind you re your email to your mam ( sorry, wot is TM? ) I washed my hands of mine a cpl years back but I've recently sent a very forthright, but not aggressive/rude, and dead honest email to the other members of her family. My Granda and 2 uncles ( who live with him. Yes really. ) I even printed it out and snail mailed it, incase my uncle had changed his email or didn't wanna pass it on to my Granda.

I'm not expecting a response, though I'd find it interesting to see what they'd have to say. This is as a result of having my eyes opened to just how bloody odd and dysfunctional they are, when I visited with my husband and daughter just before Xmas. My mate was there too and it really does wonders visiting with other people, as opposed to on my own ( and rationalizing the weird behaviour after yrs of getting used to it ) in that you can look at things from an outsiders perspective and be more objective.

My tolerance levels of fucked up family members is precisely zero now. After decades of clinging on to any tiny vestiges of hope that my so-called family might behave in even a semi-normal manner ( cos haven't we all got mates who have nice, normal families that we always make comparisons against?), well that visit put paid to that.

Instead of Grandpa In My Pocket, I wish I could have a psychologist in mine, honestly!

chimi TM is toxic mum.

Cheers Good. tbh I was gonna ask why, on this site ( or is it just the Relationships board?) are there so many abbreviations? It's like a secret society on here sometimes, with encrypted messages I have to try and decipher!

I find it strange how, people can type reams and reams of txt but they'll abbreviate words like "son", "mam", "dad" etc LOL! Then there's the funny terminology like "Flying Monkey"......Honestly, it's like trying to understand a Google Translation at times. I still don't understand half of what I read Maybe cos I haven't read the books that are often recommended around here?

Not come across this sort of secret language on other forums and it can come across as quite excluding, in all honestly. Esp to newbies I would imagine.

So I was just interested in the rationale behind all the shorthand really....Maybe if a MN Mod could come on and explain, that'd be really helpful also. I just find it odd how people can't just speak in plain English.

I only learnt what LTB meant the other day cos someone actually typed out the 3 words!

Hello all

I've been poorly, very scared as helper couldn't stay and I couldn't look after ds as was too busy vomiting and crying. This is why I need my dad :(

chuckling chimi I know just what you mean, the abbreviations are awful sometimes! Therés a list at the very top of the page, one of hte Mumsnet headings, but it doesn't have everything. here Acronyms

Flying monkeys is a phrase someone coined ... a toxic person who has browbeated all sorts of relatives into being her or his monkey ... when someone breaks away, they send out these monkeys to convey messages. It's usually a way of trying to bring pressure on the rebellious person by getting the whole family involved. "she's so worried about you" ... "he's having a heart murmur, the stress of all this is terrible" ... "family must come first" ... etc.

I'll join you on a health kick starting 15th feb! How long for? :) No alcohol at all? where do cakes come into it? Do we set a goal of exercise 1 x week or 1 x 2 weeks too?