"But we took you to stately homes!!!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

It's December 2014, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
October 2014

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Hello, may I join?

I've been lurking for a while reading these threads and I'm going to give the classic SH opening line: I don't think my mum is as bad as many of those here.

Brief background: I grew up with my mum and dad and my younger DSis. I was my dad's golden child and my mum's scapegoat; Dsis the other way around. My GC status with my dad didn't prevent him from physically hitting me as well as my sister; a "clout" (i.e. hard hit to the head) was pretty much a daily occurrence whenever he was annoyed about something.

My dad molested me from age 11 to 13 (daily). There has been a variety of versions from my mum about whether or not she believed me when I told her. I told her twice and I really thought the first time that it would stop; it didn't. I eventually disclosed to a school teacher when I was 15 what had happened, because I could see that he was starting to groom Dsis.

To this day, my mum still believes "don't be silly, he would never have molested your sister - he didn't like her." Really mum?!

When I had told her the second time what he was doing, my mum made me make the decision of whether we were going to leave my dad. She said "Well we could just pack our things and leave, but I have no idea where we would go. We would probably have to live on the streets and you and your sister would be put in care." Of course I said that we should stay. This "decision" (made by a 13-year-old terrified abuse victim!) was then thrown at me a few years later when I disclosed to school.

Anyway after the school got involved and social services, my dad was forced to move out. Social services had said that if he didn't move out then both me and my sister would be taken into care. I honestly think that if they'd said that only I would be put in care, my mum would not have told him to move out. She then started to say that she didn't believe me about the abuse and never had done. This was the story she gave to my teacher (who clearly thought she was an idiot) and to social services, and I think probably to the police as well.

The police took a statement and he must have admitted the abuse (I was told while giving my statement that if he didn't then it would definitely go to court) but this was the late 80s and nobody really gave a shit about prosecuting abusers - especially when they were well-spoken, well-educated successful businessmen. (who took their kids to stately homes!)

He moved out but it was about 8 weeks from me disclosing to him going and I basically spent all of my time in my bedroom with the door bolted and a kitchen knife under my pillow until he went.

After he left my mum allowed Dsis to have unsupervised visits at his home. Nothing happened to Dsis but she said it was incredibly dull as he would just stick her in front of the TV and then spend all evening/weekend on the phone to several new women that he had on the go.

My mum has a very selective memory and claims either "I don't remember that" or "No that never happened" to a number of very hurtful things that she said to me as a traumatised victim.

A couple of months before I disclosed and was suffering with extreme depression: "For gods sake, you're still a virgin. He didn't actually rape you, you need to get over it."
On the day I disclosed and she had been called into the school, she waited until I got home and told me "You can drag yourself through the mud if you like but you're not pulling the rest of this family with you."
After my dad had been told to move out, she came into my bedroom one day, walking like she'd shit her pants (honestly, I have no idea why but she always put on this splay-legged shuffle when she was acting hard done by) and asked me "I'd just like to know what I've done that's so wrong. Why are you punishing me like this? You decided you wanted us to stay together so why are you tearing this family apart now?"
After giving a statement to the police: "The policeman told me about a case he'd just dealt with where the father actually raped his daughter and broke her nose, so you really do need to realise you're lucky."

She claims not to remember any of these now. She also claims not to remember telling DSis that "Pocketsaviour is very confused and has imagined something that isn't true - but I do believe that she believes it."

There were many other little digs over the next few years and it wasn't until my dad wrote her a really horrible letter basically admitting to the abuse but blaming her ("if you hadn't been so frigid I wouldn't have had to turn to my daughter to get my needs met") that she actually seemed to realise that I was, you know, the victim and that the bad guy in the picture was actually the child molester. At that point me and her had a very emotional conversation and said that we forgave each other and from now on we would look after each other.

In retrospect I think that I was so afraid of being alone without any parent at all that I just shoved my (righteous) anger at her behaviour down and put her in the role of victim, when in fact she was clearly an enabler.

My last partner (I'm single now) once said to me "I think your mum still resents you and holds you responsible for breaking up the family and now she doesn't have a fat pension pot to rely on." I'm not sure exactly what she had said to him, but I think he was bang on...

My feelings about her have come to a head in the last couple of years though because she is increasingly toxic to DS(19). My DS is actually my stepson by my late husband; his birth mum walked out when he was 3. So I have been in his life for 16yrs and as far as we're concerned, I'm his Mum. Even after me and his dad split when he was 11, I kept contact with him and we spoke daily on the phone and he came to me during school holidays as much as possible. (Not logistically easy as his dad moved him about 200 miles away.)

When his dad died very unexpectedly he came to live with me briefly; my mum was at that time living with me as she had had to sell her flat to move in and care for my Grandma, who had dementia; after my Grandma died my mum had nowhere to live so I offered her to move in with me.

My mum behaved very badly to DS who at the age of 13 had just lost his dad and was therefore what she called "clingy". She said that cuddling him on the settee and on his bed before sleeping, and holding his hand was "coddling" him and that I would increase his grieving time by "indulging" him. I can't believe I fell for this and I'm so angry with myself for denying DS the simple human comfort and reassurance that he needed. I really believed that because my mum had managed to give birth and I hadn't, that meant she must be a better parent than me (LH and I spent years TTC but couldn't, and we didn't qualify for IVF.)

As a result, when DS's birth mum got in touch and he said he wanted to go and live with her (a natural reaction - he'd just lost his dad and he felt the need to create those connections with blood relatives) I didn't fight it, because my mum was so enthusiastic about him going. In the event, it turns out his birth mum is a horrible narcissist and her current husband a violent bully, and he ended up in a very abusive situation. I had to fight for two years, with social services involved, to get him back with me. By which time my mum had moved out.

Things have come to a head in the last year - I moved back to near my childhood home, having been living a few hundred miles away for the last 12 years. I originally thought "oh it will be great being close to family again" and while it's been amazing being able to see my Dsis and cousins more regularly, it's been a real trial spending more time with my mum. Just being back down here has brought up memories which I haven't thought about for years, of how isolated and alone I felt living in that house, without a single ally against the child molester.

My mum doesn't tick the boxes as a narcissist: I think she has a combination of dependent and avoidant personality disorders, and I also think she has OCD. I cannot ever remember her raising her voice in anger. My grandpa was an alcoholic and she very much ticks all the boxes for adult children of alcoholics. She is extremely codependent and tends to catastrophise on other people's behalf, then blame them for her anxiety.

It's really only in the last few months that I've started ripping away the FOG and accepting that I had a crap, cowardly mother who put her own comfort and lifestyle and fear of "what the neighbours will say" before my safety and that of my sister.

The trouble is that if I ever try to confront her about her actions/words, she immediately starts crying and begging for forgiveness, but at the same time trying to justify what she did or didn't do. Like, "I'm so sorry! I'm so sorry! I've been a terrible mother! But anyone in my position would have done the same thing!"

I've told her before "I forgive you for your failings" but it's like that's not enough - she doesn't want to be forgiven, she wants to be told it wasn't her fault and she didn't do anything wrong. Does anyone else have this with their martyr-playing mothers? I have tried and tried to get through this point but it seems like the only thing that would satisfy her is for me to say "Yeah you're right, there's nothing else you could have done and it was totally my fault for saying that I didn't want us to go and live on the streets when I was 13". But I'm not going to say that, because it's not true.

OK I'm really sorry for the length of this, thanks for reading (if anyone managed to get through it, LOL)

And also wanted to say my best wishes to all of those posters and their families going through bereavements at this time.

Oh my gosh, I knew I'd written a lot but I had no idea it was going to be that long. Is this a record?! I guess once I started talking... it's such a relief to be able to finally say stuff. Especially when most people are like "Well you only get one family" and all that crap.

Wow pocketsaviour, it sounds truly awful what you have experienced - made worse by your dm's dismissal of it and as you rightly say, still not accepting responisibilty and wanting you to admit fault etc.. Unbelieveable!

I find just talking on here helps - just writing it down, as you say, is a relief. You say you feel you've now accepted how your mother is and acknowledge that you cannot change her now and think that is an important step but still very painful. It is hard to accept our mothers aren't particularly nice/likeable people isn't it?

I'm still struggling to believe/accept my mums selfishness both when I was growing up and now but have to realise she will not change.

She has just returned from Australia and gave my dsis some presents for my 2 dc's. I don't know what to do with them? These are gc's she's never particularly bothered with (will buy things but not spend time with/take interest in) - should I give them the presentsor not?
(I'm the one with the mother whom accused by step-dad of being a paedophile when they split, saying she had suspicions early on in their 11 yr relationship but chose to stay with him!! Explicit evidence of her always putting her own needs before anyone elses, esp her children/grandchildren. I completely disbelieve the accusation - think it was said in an attempt to keep step-dad away from 'her' grandchildren! Plus the mother who moved to another part of the country with my other step dad (!) when I was 15 and about to sit my GCSE's, leaving me with my 18 yr old sister and her boyfriend!)

I'm currently NC with her by the way (have been for approx 5 months)

Tell your sister to give these items to the charity shop if she has not already done so; hopefully she will follow this request to the letter. If you have been given these items by your sister they need to go to the charity shop.

You do not want them and your children should not be at all subjected to their nan's further emotional manipulation of them. Such gifts are rarely if even given without a sense of obligation attached to them anyway.

NC is precisely that, radio silence from you must be maintained.

Hey Pocketsaviour, OMG! I'm totally and utterly appalled by your mother, I really am. Her behaviour is unforgivable and I'm guessing you just feel duty-bound to even see her at all?

I washed my hands of my nasty mother a cpl yrs ago now. She chose her ghastly Dickhead of a husband over me and stood by and let him kick me out the house when I was 18yrs and had nowhere to go. I squatted and ended up in a hostel.

But she always defended and normalized her behaviour, and even when I tackled her about stuff that happened in the past she would say it didn't happen like that, so I was left feeling like I had False Memory Syndrome!

Even the violence I witnessed against her, she would say that she was winding him up and deserved it! Beggers belief!

It took me years to go NC with her, even though I've always despised her, given that 1) She never protected me or put me, her daughter before some idiot pot-head she married, 2) She has always denied or justified everything cos she's in denial and was basically an enabler.

I'm no psychologist but, wether she's a victim of Stockholm Syndrome or not, EVERYBODY has a choice. She did not have a gun to her head and she made her choices. That's the same as your mother.

From your story, I know I could never forgive your mother, who blatently did not put her daughters' safety first and failed at her most basic duty as a mother...to protect her kids.

If you have nothing to be gained from having this awful, negative lump of a woman in your life, then I say cut her out of your life.

Obviously, I realise that is a hell of a lot easier said than done when it's your mother. But you would get loads of advice on here if you wanted to take that step. Plenty other people have done it. I don't see the point in entertaining some wicked witch of a mother, just because you had the misfortune to be born into that family. F!ck the crying and whinging, she does not deserve you as a daughter.

Thank you Attila... but why do I feel such a bitch for thinking of doing that? Hilariously the t-shirt she brought my daughter said 'someone who loves me very much went to Australia and bought me this t-shirt'!!!

Very apprehensive at attending my nans funeral next week (mums mum) - firstly because will have to see my mum but also concerns about her 'kicking off' (especially as step dad is going - he did a lot for my grandparents in 11 years he was married to my mum). She's not talking to her dsis, dbro or her father (my grandad) either and at a previous family event she shouted/went into a rage. Has threatened by step-dad recently (that she'll kill him/his new partner if he goes near 'her' family).

Its such a bloody mess but have moments of feeling so sad and wonder whether I should be maintaining NC or to begin process of re-engaging with her but then wondering why I'd want to as really unsure what I get out of the relationship except underlying negativity and criticism and certainly very minimal interest in me/her gc's lives.

FOG are three of many damaging legacies such people leave their now adult offspring.

Please don't feel like a bitch or guilty for not accepting presents for your children from your mother; do you think she feels an ounce of guilt for what she has put you through?. Absolutely not!. Accepting presents from such a disordered woman will simply subject your children to emotional manipulation from her.

Re this forthcoming funeral is there any way of you being seated separately away from your mother; you really do not want to go anywhere near her in any case. The funeral directors certainly need to be aware of any possible conflict in advance and I hope they have been informed. Do you reckon she would attend anyway given also that she is not talking to her dsis, dbro or father?. She has certainly fallen out with a lot of people hasn't she (it says an awful lot about her) and I bet you she blames them for that happening as well.

Maintain NC as well. From what you have written of your mother no good will come of having her at all anywhere near you all. I would continue to enjoy the peace in not having her at all in your lives. You do not need her.

so glad you came to write it all out Pocket It comes slowly the painful realisation of how awful its all actually been when you come to pick it apart. You have hung onto the important points in your life (despite her trying to deny them!) that were really what happened to you, and not let her ride roughshod over them. Good for you.

I still get shocked at the horrendous things that enabling/narc M's come out with, and you've said a few.

Welcome here and just very sorry you need to be here, but i'm sure you will find it so helpful in finally settling a lot of what has gone on for you.

I'm sorry you suffered this way, and no, it isn't any less value to what others post, one cannot place a bar on such atrocities, its all hideous suffering and yet despite this, you have been a wonderful DM to a boy who needed it. I have similar kind of regrets, from following others advice at times, so the only way to go is listen to yourself. You have been brave to post everything out and I really hope its helped you. warm wishes

pocket .... . I'm so sorry for the appalling pain you've been through

From what you say your mother has refused to believe what was gonig on and then consistently blamed you in almost all ways for it. Even then, no doubt sometimes she can be normal and nice .... as long as you forget the giant bloody mammoth in the room. Minimizing, victim blaming ... the lot.

What she did, her silent acquiescence and her blaming of you, makes her profoundly guilty. Her treatment of a vulnerable and bereaved boy .... well, this touches my own experience. Even reading this, I wish deeply that clocks could be turned back.

It sounds like your mother has stepped down from ALL responsibility as a mother. She just wants to be a child and to be looked after and told that everything is alright ... no matter the price to anyone else in all the world. Even her own children.

The situation was very different but my biological mother had severe borderline personality disorder and a huge, huge amount of her behaviour was because she coudln't bear to be 'bad'. She had to be the good girl. I've told this before several times here, but this included violence against her husband and her children and then denying it utterly and making out that it was in our imaginations. She coudln't bear to be the bad one. In that, she sounds very like your mother.

Have you had therapy? I really think you need some highly skilled and perhaps specialised therapy. The BACP is a good place to start. Sadly you might have to go privately :( But 6 sessions through the NHS will not even scratch the surface.

Are you and your sister on ok terms?

wishing you well

worry could you take a big solid friend with you to the funeral? Someone who can be with you and support you and hopefully is 6' with broad shoulders.

About being in contact, I too think that it's not a good idea. No one needs criticism that undermines (constructive criticism is great, but that isnt what your mother does is it?). Or bucketloads of negativity. Plus the lying. Or the tantrums. But to weigh it up, write down the pros and cons on a piece of paper. What she's done, what she's still like. What she would bring to your life and your childrens' lives. What the pluses might be and what the dangers might be.

--

Thank you so much to everyone who replied. It is so good to hear validation of my feelings and people who have good relationships with their families just don't get it.

Worry it is so hard to accept that my mum is not a nice person, you're right. I remember when my Dsis first remarked "She's just a horrible person - I love her but I don't like her" and I was . I immediately went "NO! She's a nice person!" But I've come to realise that she ISN'T nice, she just tells people she is nice... I have always told people I am NOT nice!

Chimi yes to a large extent it's duty that keeps me seeing her. Before I moved back closer I did think that I would spend more time with her and that I would enjoy that. I've realised that if there are other people around to act as a buffer, it's fine. We've been out to family events a few times and with my aunties and uncles around, she reins it in. But if it's just me and her, the conversation is just so empty, because there are so many things I can't talk about to her. In November I had a week off work and I invited her to come out for a coffee and a walk round the shops. By the time she went home she had pissed all over my business plans and I felt so demoralised. Since then I only saw her very briefly at Xmas and I've tried to limit my phone conversations with her. But that makes me feel guilty, because she really doesn't have many other people in her life.

Sometimes I can talk to her and I do feel warmth, and we can have a laugh about things. It's better on the phone. And a lot of times I do challenge her ridiculous opinions and I feel confident to do so. If I cut contact off, I think things would be awkward between me and the rest of the family and I KNOW she would rope one of my aunties in with a sob story, and probably one of my cousins (the flying monkey thing.)

Sugar thank you for saying I'm a good DM. I certainly try my best and I do regret mistakes I have made in the past with my DS. The difference is I can admit to them and say to him "I'm sorry I made this mistake, I realise now it must have really hurt, and it was wrong of me." And he is a very loving little boy hulking great teenager and since he has gone through a lot of counselling and therapy he is actually very good at talking about his feelings in a constructive way.

Meerka you said It sounds like your mother has stepped down from ALL responsibility as a mother. She just wants to be a child and to be looked after and told that everything is alright ... Yes, exactly. I have been parentified (not sure if that's the right word?) since as long as I can remember. When I was tiny and my dad kept running off with other women, she looked to me to fill the void. As I got older, my dad put me in the Wife position (which was gross, and an obvious precursor to the molestation) and my mum kind of abdicated quite happily. Our mealtimes were surreal... my dad talking to me at the table about politics, history, whatever he'd read in the Daily Mail (oh yes, he was an avid reader!), or whatever interested him, and me hanging on his every word and desperately hoping for his approval.., then turning to my mum and Dsis and saying "Will you two be quiet while we're eating!" It was BIZARRE and I don't understand how she thought that was okay?? After my dad had gone and the horrible letter had hit, she then put me in the Husband position and again I was expected to be her support and to discipline my Dsis (which did not make for a happy sibling relationship at that time. We ended up fighting, often physically, of course.)

Dsis and I are now very close and we look out for each other. Dsis has been through a lot of therapy and CBT for her own issues and is a very well-balanced person now who absolutely knows who she is. She is very protective of me, and I am very protective of her. She has less contact with mum than I do. She had her moment of clarity when my XH died - my mum apparently kept ringing her while I was working to moan about how awful her life was now this inconvenient grieving orphan had landed on our doorstep. I don't think she has seen my mum in person for about 2 years at least, but she has managed to handle it very deftly so that mum hasn't really realised that it's on purpose. I need to take a leaf out of Dsis's book!

I have had three goes on the therapy roundabout The first time was when I was about 22 and I had 6 free sessions, I think it was through Barnados. It did really help with some major anxiety issues I was having then. I had about a year with someone when I was about 25 that was completely useless, but I lacked the confidence or self-worth to say "hey this isn't working and I'm going to find someone else." Ironically, my mum had arranged it?! which is maybe another reason why I didn't feel able to walk away. Then last year I had about 4 months with a lady who specialised in both abuse and eating disorders (compulsive overeater, I'm morbidly obese.) She was very good but I really wanted to focus on the overeating aspect so we didn't really touch on my mum.

Unfortunately the cost of living where I am now is so high that I can't afford anything right now. Day to day, I'm coping fine. I have read several Alice Miller books and I'm working my way through Homecoming.

Again thanks and and to everyone who replied, it really does mean a lot.

Another essay

worry about the funeral, it sounds like your family all know what the score is with your M if she has fallen out with so many people before. Are you in contact with them? Can you discuss with any of them beforehand and come up with tactics for the day if she kicks off?

Pocket - so much of what you write about your mother in that last post could be about mine. You're not my sister by any chance are you? I even say I love her but don't like her!

I'm sorry though that it's like that. The way you deal with your parenting "mistakes" though sounds really healthy. I'm trying that too, but mine are much younger, so no idea how it'll work out!

Sorry - I've nothing useful to add really, just that!

Good evening ladies, how are you all today ?

Pocket It sounds like your mum doesn't want your forgiveness because to forgive her means that you know she is partly responsible for what happened. By partly responsible, I mean that she failed in her duty to protect you from your dad. Forgiving her means she has to acknowledge and face up to what she did, and she doesn't want to do that. To make things better for HER, she wants to tell her that it wasn't her fault so she won't have to face that proposition. No toxic person wants to be in the wrong. At any time.

I have to go, but I'll be back tomorrow to catch up. Take care and to you all on here. You're all wonderful . And I really mean that

Meerka - Thanks I'm enjoying it right now

Pocket - We are conditioned to feel guilty for even challenging our mothers so that's not unusual, but the fact she doesn't have many people in her life really isn't your problem. So don't guilt trip yourself on that one. Doesn't sound surprising given the woman you describe!

Maybe when you next feel duty - bound or guilty you could read your OP, " For God's sake you're still a virgin, he didn't actually rape you.....get over it!" THIS quote fills me with horror TBH. Would you have taken that from a friend? No wonder it sits in your mind, festering, after all these years!!

We will always struggle with what our expectations of what our mother should be Vs what we have actually ended up with. It really is a mind-fuck, to be frank.

And on a more serious note, my bloody boiler's packed in. A Batiste and perfume day I reckon!

Good morning ladies. I hope you've all had a good rest last night and feel more up to dealing with what this day will bring

I got to thinking last night about you all, how you were all coping with life, and your emotions regarding your different situations. Do you know, it dawned me that we can't turn back time and change how our family members love/hate us, so why worry about it. We can't make them love us, no matter how hard we try, because this is their problem. A problem that may be so ingrained into them that they don't realise how bad they actually are. And they may well get nasty when forced to face their shortcomings/failings/faults.

BUT, we don't have to take anyone's horrid behaviour toward us. We have many emotional tools to help us through, such as ignoring nasty comments, not reacting to them, pulling them up on their behaviour, telling them a few home truths about their behaviour and so much more. One of the best tools is ignoring hurtful behaviour, as it can enrage the person. When this happens, I tend to let them get on with it as it says more about them than you.

Just remember, this is the first day of the rest of your life. So lets make sure our futures with our DC are batter than our pasts have been. If that means going NC with people who are a threat to our DC and our own happiness, then go ahead and do it. We all have the right to be as happy as possible. If others want to spend their lives being miserable and hostile, let them get on with it. It's not our problem and we need to let that behaviour wash over us.

Apologies for shouting, but IT ISN'T OUR DUTY OR OBLIGATION TO TRY AND MAKE PEOPLE HAPPY. Some people will never be happy no matter what we do for them. So let's live the rest of our lives as we mean to go on and make a better future for ourselves.

Anyway, have some and some

great post chiggers!

That was supposed to be "Let's make sure our futures with our DC are better that our pasts". No flour, salt or water/milk has been used in the making of this quote

Once we have enough classes running in the art of letting that behaviour wash over us we'll all be set, good to go.

Its the pain of that isn't it, building our resilience against parents that have gone the extra mile (or marathon) when it comes to head-fucking

it also colours your own experience of DC, but the awareness here is like a vaccination against that, mind you so is the experience too!

I recall mine saying duing one particular horrible episode that 'you'll understand when you have children', well now i do, and its blown that one out of the water! at the time it pacified me, i thought thats true I don't have DC I don't know what its like and whyparents do the shit things they do, but maybe i will realise when i have them.

& yum! yum!

I wish I could live with the sadness more easily ... and the longing for unconditional love. I wish I could get it through to myself that I have a lovely husband, few-but-100%-solid friends and two lovely kids and feel a bit of security within myself.

We will always struggle with what our expectations of what our mother should be Vs what we have actually ended up with. It really is a mind-fuck, to be frank.

So so true. Really find this difficult. Sometimes find myself thinking 'no, my mum can't be like that/she wouldn't do that'.

I too struggle wth the sadness Meerka - I have an amazing dh, 2 wonderful dc's and dsis plus great in-laws but even so what I don't have/will never have is a mum or dad whom will love me unconditionally, whom I can turn to during difficult times and who I know are there for me 100%. Denied this for so long, esp re; my mum, telling others she was great and now I've 'woken up' and have been honest with myself and others about how it really is, it is all-consuming and so bloody sad. Had a good cry last night.

Thank you everyone on here for sharing your stories/experiences and helping me realise I'm not on my own and I'm not a freak!

Thanks so much for advice re; my nan's funeral - I'm going to speak to my Auntie about speaking to funeral directors about possibility of someone kicking off. My dh is unable to come with him as needs to stay with our dcs (funeral is approx 4-5 hr drive from where we live) but will have my dsis for support and my lovely male cousin.

oh Meerka i have a sense of that deep pain. I can only encourage insofar as its been a long time since i've felt that awful hollow ache inside for that.

There a lot of grief and self-soothing between me and that now.

It is true yes, we all go through that process of childhood delusion and reality in growing up, but to us the reality is so much more shocking and unpalatable and almost impossible to accept, as to sometimes be a life-long thing.

The hole that they leave we fill ourselves with our own attachment to our reliance and unconditional love of ourselves (a bit of a battle after having so many 'judgements' installed into our programmes!).

I think a lot of people are still on their journey re how to manage their dysfunctional families, on here. In particular, their relationship with their mother, from what I can gather. It seems to be the mother in most of the posts I've read thus far, who is the antagonist.

Personally, I put my relationship with "her" to bed, and went NC at least 2yrs ago, but I've since been dealing with members of her side of the family, namely, her 2 brothers and father. I did a thread called " Why is my family so weird?", a while back, as a result of my visit to my Granda before Xmas.

But, as I say, my journey has come to an end re my estranged mother and the way I deal with it is, like all bad memories and feelings, I consign them to a very small part of the back of my mind. I sort of write down my feelings re her and my dysfunctional upbringing ( metophorically speaking as I just visualise ), it's like I brainstorm anything that comes into my head re the whole situation, then I visualize that I fold this piece of paper ( origami style! ) to the size of a postage stamp and put it in a box and lock the box. It's the size of a match box! Then I just sort of put this box in some dark recess in the back of my mind and there it stays.

It's all done and dusted and I don't mourn anything anymore. After decades of dealing with this crap, in my case, what's the point? By doing this, I keep bad memories and feelings at bay. Once upon a time though, these negative feelings and emotions ran amok, they were at the fore, and they governed how I acted, what I did etc and they were mighty destructive tbh.

I've learned, as previously stated by Chiggers, I cannot change anything so I need to just stop flogging that dead horse cos it just saps my energy, uses up head space and generally prevents me from moving on and progressing in life. I gave her nearly 20yrs, after she stood by and let me be kicked out ( being complicit obv ) to change and fulfill my dream of being a normal, well-balanced mother. Needless to say, it never happened.

How many more years of one's life are they gonna suck out of us with their selfish, negative life-force, unless we put a stop to it and declare " enough already!" Who has infinate patience? Not I.

Everyone just has to find their own way of rising above it or putting the whole sorry saga to bed, once and for all. Everybody has different coping mechanisms and strategies. But it's still, even now, when people I don't know very well ask "are you going home to see your parents for Xmas?" for e.g, I then have to reply "I don't have any parents", then they feel awkward so I feel like I have to expand and yahda yahda yahda, here we go again.......Bloody Hell it gets tedious. But I'm an anomoly in that regard and always will be.

Family is overrated IMO.

Worry - all the best for the funeral. Take it easy, girls

If there is one thing I've learned from my mum, it's how not to be a parent. It's coming into February, so I'll be doing a mental spring-clean. I'll be tossing out all the shit I can't change, and keeping the stuff I can.

When we are in a mental hole, we need to look up and see the light. Sometimes we should just figure out how to scale the wall and just climb without thinking. Once we're up and out of the hole, and it'll take time, we can then stand I the light and think to ourselves "We did it. We've dragged ourselves out of the pit. We CAN do it". Be proud that you've done what you possibly feared you'd never do. That said, it takes incredible focus and sheer determination to get there, but a little effort will go a long way.

Can't remember who said the following, but one of my favourite quotes is "There is nothing to fear but fear itself". There will be occasions when we need to push ourselves out of our comfort zone WRT our families. This could be having them fall out with us because we're forcing them to confront their nasty/horrid/vile/abusive behaviour (which they'll not want to do at any cost), but we can survive without our toxic relatives.

I started my journey when I was 20yo, I'm now 37yo, so I've had 17yrs of practice at this and 17yrs of building myself up to a physical, mental and emotional resilience and resolve that can be bent, but not broken. It has taken all these years of incredible focus, dedication and determination to get where I am today, but I had to start off in the right frame of mind and with the right pumping rock tracks (Hail to the King, Shepherd of Fire, Eye of the Tiger etc). For more soulful music, I listen to Roy Todd.