"But we took you to stately homes!!!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

It's December 2014, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
October 2014

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Good evening ladies. I've not been on here in a wee while as I've had many emotions to deal with after I'd found out my dad is gravely ill. He's literally on his way out now and it's just a matter of time.

No-one, except my lovely BIL, have rung or text me to let me know he is now out of hospital. I thanked him for his text letting us know, but I'm just constantly left out of the loop (my DB and BIL are the exception as they are lovely and considerate). There are days where I think "Fuck'em" and days where I just can't be bothered with the rest of the family. We have been in this town for over 4 months now and not once have they rung to ask how the kids are.

Sometimes I wonder if I should really bother, and I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised if dad died and they didn't tell me until the day before the funeral.

When my beloved MIL was taken into hospital they didn't even ask about her when I saw them. I got to the point where I didn't bother telling them she had passed away until a couple of days before the funeral. This was after we had arranged the funeral/cremation/drinks and food at our house. It was a hard week and what annoys me is the fact that, apart from my lovely BIL and dad, no-one asked about how the kids were coping with the loss of their beloved gran.

On to more exciting news. DH has said that he's getting me Stephen Hawking's book A Brief History of Time. I was gobsmacked, but I'll probably order it myself. I find him incredibly fascinating and intelligent. Michio Kaku is another man I find intriguing and both are incredibly intelligent.

Anyway, I'll stop wittering as I've to take the mad mutts out for a nice long walk. I'll give me the chance to mull over things then get back to studying .

Hope you have made it through today, misc

littleredhen it sounds like you're keeping strong ... what your brother and sister are doing is very hurtful, but you do have to do what is right for you and your family.

chiggers it sounds like things will get difficult around your father. I'm glad you have BIL and brother, they sound lovely.

Hope you got thru it misc.
Hello chiggers.
Feeling a bit guilty this morning, but it may be my over developed guilt chip thanks to DM. DH is at work today til 1pm. MIL turned up at about 945, which is fine, don't mind that at all. We were having breakfast, she stayed for a bit. Plan then was for me to go to the park with the kids in the car. DS invites MIL. I didn't want to take her so I was vague about timing. We left it that she had done errands to do and would come back and if we hadn't left she'd cone with us. So I made sure we were out before she came back. She said she'd cone back this afternoon if she missed us this morning. I'd rather she didn't but I,accept I can't really get out of that. DH will be back by then anyway. She's a lovely woman but she's an 83 yo housewife and there's only so much polite conversation we can have before it does my head in. I wanted to take the kids to the park and have a coffee at the park café and use MN and not talk iyswim. But I do feel like a bit of a cow, FIL died a week ago. But I really don't want to start a habit of MIL coming with us every Saturday/Sunday. Am I cruel? She sees the kids every day at the school gate before they go in and usually passes and says hello thru the railings mid morning,and often sees them on the 5 min walk home too.
I need some autonomy at the weekends.

G2B

No I do not think you are being cruel in the slightest, you all need your own space particularly in the event that family time is more limited during the week. You have your own family unit here to consider and I also think further discussion re his mother is necessary. What do you expect from each other here?. Where do you see your relationships going with each other now that FIL has passed?.

Has she done this before and if her own H was still alive, would she have visited you at all today?.

My FIL died not a month ago and I do not have MIL turning up like this, she would not have visited anyway even if my son was younger. Infact she would not do so anyway primarily because I am very much the afterthought!. You know that saying "no man is an island". Well, she is an island.

BTW hope your exam in Madrid went well.

Yes, she would have been inclined to pop in even before FIL died. I don't mind that. It's more that DS then invites her to where we are going. Unless I have an excuse prepared I find it awkward. She doesn't seem to get the hint, that I might not want company. For instance, if it were me and my DIL I would refuse when invited, saying I was fine thanks and then only accepted if.pushed. Even if I wanted to go, but maybe that's just me being British.
A bit before FIL died we had gone for a walk and bumped into her on the way out. DS invited her and I said no it's a long walk, it's too far and he got in a right strop and she was all, it's fine I don't mind a long walk and in the end she came. I was really annoyed as I'd wanted it to be the four of us but without saying "I don't want you to come, please go home" I felt a bit stuck, especially with DS throwing a tantrum about her possibly not coming.
I think I will be careful to have some polite, unassailable excuses and try to nip any little habits in the bud.
She needs to get into her own routine anyway.
If dh can get the days off I want us to.visit Dbro in Dublin at Easter, don't want to get into that bollocks DM used to pull of not being able to go away.

I won't know exam results until May, thanks for asking. I think it went ok, but you never know. Just soooo tired still, travel up there and back and 7 hrs doing the actual exams

I wouldn't turn up to something on the invite of a DC G2B . It would feel very uncomfortable?!?! I don't think its a british thing.

I think i'd want to say to DS that if they wanted to invite DG somewhere, then that would be done, but not to randomly invite to things you've already organised in order just your immediate family to have some quality time together ALONE! Even if things were easy, but then if they were easy, thats probably why they'd be easy!

I hope you get a good result for your exam!!

Its a bit prickly for me reading all these difficulties with failing healths of NC parents. Makes me wonder whether any in the know would actually tell me!

Strange how a friend from way back happened to tell me one day that they had moved from the [once] family home, to a different town. Brings it home the effect of being NC and just made me think again about things. None of the people i know that are in touch with them told me. its not that i really expect to hear, you would just assume it might be said in passing i suppose.... musings... weird family

Well exactly, sugar. DS is only 6, obviously he wants his granny to come to everything. I would refuse (even if I wanted to go) unless the parents were obviously keen too. There have been 2 occasions now where I think it's been obvious I'm not keen, i.e I'm making excuses why it's not a good idea or I'm being vague and yet it's not seemed to put her off. Part of me feels rude but then again, I think if I start down that slope then it'll become a habit that she's always there and it will do my head in. I have a history of putting everyone before myself that I have to break.
I explained to DH today that she'd been round but I hadn't wanted to wait in and take her to the park as I wanted to sit and chill by myself and he totally understood.As she'd said she'd pop back later we then dropped round this afternoon to invite her for coffee but she didn't fancy it (had her dressing gown on) so we've agreed we'll see her as planned for lunch tomorrow (we always used to see them for Sunday lunch and it's the first since FIL died) DH said "don't go turning up before 1.30 mum, we'll be out at the park", which made me laugh.
MIL isn't a narc, she's very nice and terribly kind. She's been a lovely MIL and I don't want to hurt her. Hence the fine line between helping a lovely old lady who's just been widowed and loves us very much and not ending up feeling it's all taking over our lives too much.
Helps to write it down, thanks for listening everyone. xxx

The british way of doing things is very different to other countries' way of doing things, I've noticed!

As sct said, your son is only 6. Plus, he's lost his maternal granny and his paternal grandad in really quite a short time, just a few months apart. He might be feeling a bit unsure about his paternal granny disappearing too.

Also, it's extremely soon for your MIL after the loss of someone she's lived with for decades. It's one hell of a giant readjustment for her, as I'm sure you know. So I really understand wanting to nip a nascent pattern in the bud (the saturday mornings) but also .. well it really is early days.

Maybe speak to your son alone and explain that you both love Granny very much and that sometimes you can do thigns together. Other times, you want it to just be you four together, your own family. So if you are out for a walk and see her, he doesn't have to always invite her. Sometimes it's nice to just be you four. But that we will definitely see Granny and invite her, just not to everything.

Then if it happens again that you happen to see Granny on the walk and your son invites her, maybe you can head it off by saying "actually this time, we were planning on just us 4 but can we do something all together tomorrow / tuesday / friday? (ie in the near future).

Totally get not wanting to live in each others' pockets. I also think GtB that you are probably still getting used to not having a grandmother (your own mother) imposed on you 24/7. That space as a nuclear is very important and it's not long ago that you regained it from her.

Thanks for understanding, Meerka. I do totally appreciate what a huge thing it is; they were boyfriend and girlfriend for something ridiculous like 17 years before they got married in about 1974, so it's been decades, like you say. I do see her a lot during the week, she comes to see the kids into school as her flat is right opposite and if I have time (maybe a couple of times a week) I have a quick coffee with her then. She didn't appear on Thursday morning, so I went to check she was OK (had overslept, has no phone) and took her out for breakfast. She often walks back home from school with me and the kids and if it's not my teaching day (when I'm really rushed) then we usually invite her to stay for lunch (she mostly refuses, says she has food made already).
I just don't want to start a habit of spending the weekend mornings with her. And you're right, it gives me the horrible shivers of rememberance of all those Sunday mornings feeling like I "should" spend time with my own mother, when I'd much rather have sat in the park by myself or having a chat with DH.
I think for next weekend, if she appears like today then we can spend some time over breakfast with her but I'll say we're visiting a friend of mine, even if we aren't and suggest meeting later once DH is back from work.

don't wish to be patronizing but gtb you've moved a 100 lightyears from your first post 2 years ago (was it two?)

You're always kind, always friendly and caring.

I think you're pretty great.

Aw, thanks :)

It was September 2012 and then it all kicked off in December 2012. Urgh makes me feel quite ill just to think of it...that awful heavy feeling of burden and FOG and ...bleurgh.

Thank God for MN or I'd still be there but probably divorced.

Totally agree, G2B, you come across as very thoughtful and kind, and wanting your own space for family time is natural. Sounds like you are getting a nice balance with MIL.

Misc, hope it went okay, and you're surviving.

Hi Everyone,
I've posted here before under a different name and maybe a year ago. In case anybody remembers, I have a mother who has been "organising" things for when she dies, for about 16 years. This post isn't about that, but just in case anybody remembers.

So, basically, I'm living abroad and seeing a new therapist (last one told me that I've multiple traumas and I needed someone more specialised) and she's told me - not the first time i've heard it - that I was abused as a child, by my mother. Nobody near me here knows me well, and I've been having big problems with this lack of a support network a while. After getting onto this topic with this therapist (who I really like btw), I suddenly decided last week that I shouldn't suffer in silence and so I emailed four close friends and told them the "headlines" of my life including abuse as a child and that I was just asking them to know, because I've been feeling so alone in this. Two of these people have known me since I was a baby, which means they're also my mother's friends. In previous months and they've both pointedly asked how I am doing (they've met but aren't in touch and don't know each other that well). I took this to be a sign that they sensed something wasn't right. They've also both made numerous remarks about how difficult my mother can be and each has at one point said that they wished they'd been able to intervene when I was younger. So, I decided instead of continuing this lie of "everything's fine" to tell them it wasn't.

They responded pretty well - one better than the other because she saw me at age 16 deeply upset, more upset than is normal for that age, and it always stuck with her.

The thing is, and this is why I'm here tonight, I feel better - stronger - for telling these four people BUT I feel like a traitor (at best) for telling these two family friends. I feel like I've accused someone of a serious crime, behind their back, to their very good friends, without giving them a chance to respond..and that's exactly what I've done: to my mother. Yet, that wasn't my intention and I didn't think of it like that. I thought they kind of already knew about my childhood anyway and I was just focussing it and asking for support through this next difficult stage of therapy.

Has anybody else been in this situation? Or similar? I'm completely doubting myself, thinking I've just made things up, yet how can I have complex-PTSD (or something similar) if I made the abuse up? How can I not touch things, not say certain words, not be able to STAND being physically near my mother if I'm exaggerating? Why would different therapists over the past 16 years have used the word "abuse" if it wasn't? If I've not made it up, then does it make it ok to have told these people (who have said that they won't tell her and at the moment I've no reason to doubt that)?

If you think I'm the worst person alive, please don't respond, because I've enough of those thoughts myself already.

amy im off to bed but just to say that you have not committed a crime. That it is normal to feel bad when you speak up at last about things that have gone wrong - it's normal to think 'was it really that bad' too actually - but the feelings that deeply damaging childhoods leave behind are so very painful, including shame, disloyalty and sometimes self-loathing.

These feelings come from a very hurtful childhood and they are not your fault.

cant write much more now, but to quote the last bit of the opening post:

I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

or to put it more plainly - welcome here to the Stately Homes.

We don't think you're the worst person alive. We've all, every one here, been very hurt indeed and we do not judge.

Welcome.

Thank you for replying. I've been feeling very confused. I am (hopefully) going to sleep now and it's nice to have some reassuring words in mind, rather than what's been looping in my head all day.

Amy oh please don't think you are the worst person alive.

I hear what you're saying and you speak of being so concerned about saying these things and worried for the effect on the people around you, not least the mother [who abused you].

Its very late, but I wanted to send you support for this. Its very brave steps that you 've taken and must feel quite weird and exposing, but thats different from being a bad person. These early steps can be the hardest to take. Very welcome here

G2B recommend asking your DS to invite his granny to a 'something' making it clear that its so that it can be more about seeing Granny, whereas the walk is about us?

Sugarcoated and Meerka - thank you! I've read and re-read your comments this morning and I'm feeling a little less wobbly. I guess I feel like it's easier to be angry or upset with myself that fully admit that I was abused. I know I was, but somehow I just can't believe that my mother could actually do things like that to small children (my brother and I).

Well I'm back. At least it's done.

Horrible, shocking in many ways too many to deal with. I can't deal with this. I can't take on this. I'm a disabled single working mother, I'm hanging on by a thread. I need help. I can't Be the help.

1. Funeral. Seeing the coffin. Touching the coffin. He was inside and yet not there. Hurts so bad. Eulogy mixed emotions. Was from my mothers perspective, so that was hard. V hard.

People saying 'it's just the two of you now, look after each other' hurts. So bad.

1. She's frail. Not coping. Mental problems. I can't deal with this. I can't take on this.
2. House bad. Clearly not been coping for a while. Hoarding. Nothing works, lights, central heating, fire, microwave, teapot... Garden terrible. Awful. V v scary and a horrible burden.
3. Ds. Was v hard for him. He slept on the floor with his grandpas dressing gown. Wouldn't sleep anywhere else.

It can be easier yes. We want so much to believe that our mothers were loving and good. So much.

I'm glad you've got a specialized therapist (do you know their experience?). When things have been profoundly abusive with deeply twisted dynamics, it takes an exceptional therapist to know how to support and nudge someone towards unknotting the deep, deep damage.

If it's any help I've known some people from backgrounds that are truly appalling, and with very skilled help they've come through and are basically doing well. Nothing can take the pain of what happened away, but they have learned to live with it and to unknot their lives. It's an incredible testament to how strong people can be, even when apparently they are weak.

About that awful deep pain Amy it goes and truly the memories can fade and become less important. When you work through the pain its turns from a solid wall and gradually melts away like butter. Its a searing ripping apart pain to face the betrayal and disbelief in the full shock and awe of what she has done to her own DC. Look after yourself, put yourself first, take care of you. Recognise that you matter more than what she did. My heart goes out to you, and lots of people do care to a depth she doesn't have sadly. Strength to you lovely.

Misc you have both been through such a huge ordeal (understatement!).

please don't look at the things around you just now, you have done it, and you are both back in one piece. Spend your time quietly and just trying to recover.

You have started to notice around you, it will all still be there when you feel ready to tackle it, and maybe with some help. There are many organisations out there that can help you tackle things like this. especially things like a wild garden that your DS could be having lots of fun in this summer.

You don't have to take on your DM. You have to take care of you so that you can be there for your DS, and get extra help for you.

Ask for help where you need it. For now, just be kind and gentle to you. Thinking of you.

misc im so sorry, crossposted and did not see your post.

I am glad you got through the day. Very glad. I hope you managed to take your grandfather's dressing gown home with you for your son?

No, you cannot possibly be your mother's carer. The idea is beyond impossible. Are the social services involved? it sounds like they need to be