"But we took you to stately homes!!!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

It's December 2014, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
October 2014

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Hi All. I'm a long time lurker in this thread. I believe my mother is a narc. Everything has always been about her. I managed to fulfil her expectations until I moved with my husband for his job and had my first child. I now have 2 dcs. Both are diagnosed with a lifelong neurological disability.

As an example of my Mothers selfishness when I rang her to tell her about dc1s diagnosis she switched the conversation to how fabulous her night at a ball was & how many compliments she received .

She won't choose a grandparent name as she's so cool and not into that according to her. Dc1 is non verbal and dc2 has amazingly started to speak but wouldn't be able to pick a name. Being called grandma or whatever would be really important as she would understand the relationship. My mother used to sign cards Non G ! As in non grandma and find it hilarious .

We have not been allowed to take the children into her house since may 2012. She visits me infrequently . I stupidly invited her at Xmas . She has never seen us over Xmas since the kids were born , and sat by herself all day up until this year I assume .

Anyway she was particularly vile over Xmas and obviously favours my " less disabled " so to speak child . She sent me lots of adbice filled texts which I replied to a couple then ignored.

So yesterday she just turns up at my house , no text , no phone call . I let her in , she went for a piss left some presents for the kids and went babk ?! Claimed she wanted to see if I was ok, I acted normal and said I was.

I'm not ! She drains me , every visit she says unpleasant things , makes a drama out of the childrens difficulties , which are immense but I don't need that negative force.

Please help me to know what to do! Thanks for reading . I'm an only child and my mum lives by herself . I don't care if I out myself !

You would not have tolerated any of this from a friend, your mother is no different. It is not your fault she is the way she is and such people do not change. I can only imagine you have continued to try because as an ACON (adult child of a narcissist) a small part of you still perhaps thinks she will change and or apologise. This will NEVER happen.

You likely know by now that is it not possible to have a relationship with a narcissist. You've seen more than enough of her behaviours to show this to you. You will never have any peace so long as she is in your life in any way, shape or form. She really needs to be cut out of your own life as of right now. No calls, no texts nothing should be sent from you to her now. And block all her ways of communicating with you as well. Cutting her off is not a bad thing, you are escaping the Mob Family.

She has trained you well to serve her needs but you need to redefine and reassert your all too low boundaries for your own sakes. Why did you let her in at all?. She trained you to do that and she uses that weakness of yours against you and your children.

She was not a good parent to you and is really no grandparent figure to your children either. Your children certainly do not need a narcissistic grandparent in their lives; these people make for being deplorably bad grandparent figures who either over value or under value the relationship with the grandchildren. Infact it is painful to watch a narcissist interact with their grandchildren, mainly because there is no interaction. It is like watching a re-run of a tv show you have always hated.

Do read the website entitled Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers" as well as the book "Children of the Self Absorbed" written by Nina W Brown.

Disordered women like your mother cannot do relationships at all so it is easy to imagine that any man in her life would be swiftly got rid of if he did not match up to her impossible standards. Am not at all surprised in the circumstances you describe that she lives alone.

She just saw me sat on the sofa , how could I just not answer the door. It's a totally fake relationship but I do know if I challenge her she gets very angry and turns it around to me. I stopped challenging her in recent times as I know she will never be a normal person / mother grandparent. Knowing that and cutting her out are a bit different though.

I think I have already had a look at the website. I've not read a book post dc unfortunately. She has friends but not close ones. She has made a recent with a group of goths / vampires but she doesn't discuss that with me. Her other friends are average people for a woman in her mid 60s.

On Xmas eve my son didn't go to sleep until 4am. Extremely distressed , self injuring etc. She toddled down around 9 . I slept 4-8 am , woke up to him crying . She said " I don't know what you call that piece of furniture I slept on but it is not a bed " I just said it's a sofa bed and that I hadn't gone to bed until 4 , she said she had heard him. No offer to watch them while I had a shower . She made her own breakfast using food she bought from home , said hello to the kids then went for a long bath. That was a turning point for me . Total lack of empathy or care.

She has refused to let you all into her home since 2012; there was no good reason to let her in to your home particularly given her vile behaviour over the Christmas break. She trained you to answer the door through her own conditioning of you over the years. She's got you well trained to serve her and meet her own never ending needs but you have lost your own sense of self in the process. You likely think, "am I good enough?".

Narcissistic rage is truly awful to behold but what else can she really do here other than get angry?. Raise your own far too low boundaries; baby steps like not readily responding to her text messages will be a start. The only way forward with such a person is to totally disengage from them and stop playing a part in their games.

You simply cannot and actually must not keep subjecting yourself and your children to your mother. She will just further emotionally damage you all otherwise.

Narcissists do not have friends, they use people and see them as narcissistic supply. You are being used by her as narcissistic supply.

I have been to her house to clarify but the children are not welcome nor invited . I totally hear what you are saying . I didn't respond to her messages for the last 3 weeks so that's why she visited . She never rings me , I've never quite worked out why , I used to call her though .

Am paralysed with fear and grief. Going up to Xshire tomorrow. Funeral Friday. Back home Saturday.

I couldn't force myself to get involved with funeral arrangements. I think my mother is hurt about that. But I cant. I'm barely surviving. I'm barely making it through each hour. And I've gone into not sleeping mode so can't have a break from the horror by sleeping.

I hope you have someone around that can offer you support "SitW" (I didn't like to call you 'something').

Your life sounds very very hard work and draining, and sadly your mother sounds like she's even more hard work and draining .

I was expecting you to say that she had moaned about the noise [of your DS in the night] keeping her awake and couldn't you shut him up, as that is also and entirely expectable response from someone like her; I've experienced that, people in pain or distress are just such a bloody nuisance huh?

Really sorry that you have such a shit mother to deal with, instead of someone who understands and tries to offer some support to you.

Its shocking isn't it that she just doesn't want to deal with being a 'grandma' on any level, how impossible when you are a mother! and a bloody brilliant one by the sounds of it with all this to manage without enough sleep and distressed DC to support.

Its ok to just say you're busy, but not easy when you are used to complying with her demands, or being wary of suddenly closing the once open doors.

I said to mine, call me... but like yours, she never did, but I decided that wouldn't be a reason for me to call her.

Like the others say, she won't change. I don't think they can?

Hello Misc i think its ok isn't it to not be able to help with funeral arrangements? and she doesnt have to understand, only you need to be kind to you and accept that its ok whether she does or not?

i had to shoot then, Misc but i also wanted to say how you must get some help for you sleep any way you can. Do you feel that you can manage going to the funeral itself?

If you are not sleeping, which anyone understand if your nights are so horrific, but you will not be able to manage your days and need additional support with making sure you can get some sleep any way you can?

misc you're doing brilliantly. One hour at a time is all you can expect right now, so keep putting one foot in front of the other, and think about how on Saturday, you can regroup and think about getting help with sleeping and grieving. You can do this, lovely. Whatever you can do is an achievement. Your dad would be proud of you.

Sitw (agree, calling you 'something' feels wrong!)
That is so hard. She sounds really self involved and unaware, and it must be really hurtful. I'm so sorry. You've come to the right place, though, we all get it. We've all had similar, or comparable experiences in terms of the hurt, and can understand and empathise.

I got through DD's birthday without thinking about my mother once, which I am really proud of. I was wobbly the night before, partly as I was irrationally worried she'd turn up and spoil it. But we had a lovely day, and DD was spoiled rotten by MIL and my DDad. Day by day, it's getting less horrible to deal with, and I'm taking a minute every so often to appreciate the calmness and space of being NC with her.

misc just sending some strength and warmth your way, thinking of you.

Humpty something that i really should do, as we get so busy with the getting over and getting on that we rarely take the time to just stop and appreciate that they're gone, that life is calmer without them around, that its better for us. We get caught up with dealing with the trying not to think about it and the rest. Such an important thing to do.

great you could enjoy your daughter's birthday like this

I'm leaving at 2pm this afternoon.

I am not ok. I don't know how I will do the funeral. Or the crematorium. Or back to the house guests after.

I have no idea. I cant even imagine it. It's going to be hell. Actual hell. Oh god

Can I post?

I've been NC with my narc mother, it will be 2 years in May. I completely accidentally discovered an email she sent my brothers, DSIL, husband and other members of my family (her ex-family) complaining that she doesn't get to see my kids.

This was my original thread

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/1752141-My-EA-suspected-narc-punched-me

In the beginning of NC I let a trusted mutual friend take my kids to see her. After 7 or 8 months she and the friend fell out. Narc mother simply stopped speaking to her while they were on holiday together. They'd been friends for over 40 years. The friend was/is devastated. Narc Mother apologised (when she realised she'd look bad) but friend is too hurt to have anything more to do with her.

After that DH sporadically took them over for an hour or so, staying with the kids during the visit. Narc mother rents every room in her large house to strangers, usually Mon-Fri, but she doesn't bother with references etc. as long as she's getting the money in. I'm sure these people are all fine but wouldn't risk my daughters being there unaccompanied, especially for a sleepover. Narc mother has a cavalier attitude to childrens' safety.

Anyway. I opened the laptop (shared with DH, me and occasionally the kids) and here was this email (DH and I can't understand it. DH thought he'd deleted the message at the time it was sent last summer, one of the DDs must have been on the laptop and closed it quickly while looking at the email). It basically says that everything I've said about her (pretty much everything described in the thread I did a couple of years back) is lies and that I'm jealous of her and poisonous towards her and that my DH is on her side ... all crap.

I was never comfortable with my mother seeing my kids after the punch incident. DH had arranged to take the kids over to hers, as per, when she changed the meeting to a restaurant so the 4 of them could go out for dinner. She's an absolute tramp and if this had gone ahead would have made a charade that she and DH were together playing happy families IYSWIM. I caught wind of it from my DD and cancelled the meeting. This prompted the email to family. DH didn't mention it to me at the time, nor did any other member of the family other than a vague reference my Dbro made at Xmas (penny has dropped now) as we were going on holiday that week. DH hates the whole situation. He's a peacemaker and can't stand fall outs even though he also cannot stand her. I spoke to my auntie at the weekend and she said she and my uncle deleted the message immediately without replying. I've not spoken to my brothers or SIL about it yet.

I'm struggling with DH putting her feelings before mine (in my mind).

Last year he tried to maintain a relationship between her and the children as he's lost both his parents already. I'm not comfortable, given her refusal to admit the truth or that she's done anything wrong, with this, at all.

I think she's a narc monster and by being NC we're protecting our children from her.

The email is a long character assassination of me. The other day I copied it into Word and gave very frank replies to all her points. I've not sent it though.

I don't know why I'm posting. 7 months ago I was called a liar by her on email to my nearest and dearest (though she didn't send the email to my DDad). I've absolutely not lied. I've not even exaggerated even slightly, I don't need to. I've nothing to gain by lying. I'm fucked off and need an outlet. I'm not sure if there's anything I should do.

Your only error of judgment here was letting a trusted third party take the children to see her. That was never going to work out and indeed it has been the case. Narcissists make for being deplorably bad grandparent figures anyway, I cannot emphasise that point enough. They tend to either overvalue or undervalue the relationship with their unfortunate grandchildren.

I would maintain the no contact and tell your H that he cannot and must not take his children to see your mother any more.

It is not possible to have any sort of a relationship with a narcissist.

I am sorry to read that your DH's parents are both deceased but he needs to be told that his children cannot and must not be subjected to her emotional manipulation any longer. They will be harmed by his actions and he himself is being manipulated out of his innate desire to be a peacemaker. She is using him as a "winged monkey". His own reasons for continuing a relationship with her are simply not good enough and he needs to completely back off from his MIL. Can he ultimately be trusted, do you trust him?.

Do not send any e-mails to your mother; toxic people always want a fight and the last word. No good will come of sending anything to her; radio silence from you must be maintained. You need to protect your children from her malign influence.

Thank's for replying ATM. You're saying what I think I think

I won't give her the satisfaction of me rising to her email. She probably thought last July when she sent it that someone would pass it on to me. It is quite obviously written for me to read. The thing is, the people she wrote it to know her and know me and all of them know which one of us is telling the truth.

DH thinks that when our daughters become difficult teenagers my NarcM will play them off against us. Again, even typing that I don't see the logic in them maintaining a relationship with her. My eldest daughter is now 10 and my mother sometimes sends her emails. DD's emails (and all online activity) is monitored by me. I had to reply to one NarcM sent DD, as she was promising DD all kinds of expensive gifts and shopping trips to Paris. Narc Mother is completely and utterly tight with money so it was definitely all hot air, but try telling a 10 year old that. I emailed from DD's account, saying it was me, telling her not to promise DD gifts and holidays and to copy any email sent to DH (which was the original deal). She's only sent one email to DD since.

I went on a short holiday with a friend last year and DH took DD's to visit her without my knowledge during that week. Apparently no-one (close mutual friend knew about it and let slip) wanted to spoil my holiday by telling me. I found out by accident (while still away). My DDs (10 and 6) felt they had to lie to me about being there when I asked them when I got back. I deliberately didn't fall out with DH about it because that's what Narc wants.

I feel DH keeps things from me thinking its for my own good or for the girls' benefit, but I just wish he's completely and utterly side with me. He says the words, e.g. to my brother when the subject came up the other week, but his actions are different. I trust him in that he thinks he's doing the right thing, though the things he does I think are misguided. I don't think he quite realised how evil NarcM is. It's him I need to talk to, I can see that.

You're right, narcmother, you really DO need to speak to him.

Show him some of the very, very sad stories here. A few posters have had their children seduced (eg with the presents) and poison dripped into their ears until they think the grandmother is wonderful and the mother bad. It's so sad.

If she's subtle she can do a gigantic amount of damage. Your husband needs to wise up and he needs to stop underminding you I'm afraid I think this is a betrayal of trust. She's already damaging your marriage because you are afraid to challenge him and yet your trust in him is being eroded.

I'm leaving now. Probably won't have phone or Internet, occasionally have one bar so even if I can't post, please think of me

All the best, misc

Good luck misc. Thinking of you and wishing you well.

something Hello. Your mother sounds awful. I know what you mean that it's easy to see something is wrong but hard to cut someone out.

it -is- possible to make a stand though. Next time she comes round can you open the door to her and tell her to go away? that you don't want to see her? And if she kicks off, simply shut the door in her face. Worst case - and someone on here's had to do this - ring the police.

You are entitled to stand your ground. You are entitled to have the contact that YOU want, as much or as little as YOU think is ok. If you wish some small level of contact, that's okay. Just remember that you can be in charge.

thinking of you too Misc that you'll make it through and we'll be here to greet you on the other side.. Sending you every strength take it slowly and at your own pace, do what you can and not what you can't.

Oh god it's awful.

narcmotherstrikesagain no wisdom from me, just a big supportive hug. That sounds really hard.

misc strength and peace, lovely.

Well, a whole month after our fall out at Christmas, TM made the first move today. She went to go to see DS at his school assembly with my aunt as her GD is at the same school. Just bathing DS and TM has dropped a card off saying that she misses him etc etc.

I've not shown him, resealed it and put it away. If I had recognised the hand writing, I wouldn't have even opened it.

DBro has done his wedding invites, obviously he's too mad at me to send me one. DSis says I need to apologise. I CBA.

Going to have a read of the thread now and hope you're all having a good January!

Misc, hope you're ok