"But we took you to stately homes!!!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

It's December 2014, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
October 2014

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Hi everyone. It's me, Spiders. I've decided to be an out and proud NCer and go back to my usual name.

I'm going for my first therapy session on Monday - nervous and excited about that - and I've told a couple of friends that I've gone NC, they were really supportive and not in the least bit judgemental or shocked.

My sister has texted me to say that she is engaged, which is brilliant. Her fiancé is absolutely lovely. Obviously the issues of wedding invitations might be thorny and I don't really know how much my sister wants to do with me now.

I've been having bad, bad anxiety dreams about the momster and sleeping poorly. The contact from my sister has heightened it a wee bit. I'm hoping that therapy will help to build a wall of protection against those negative thoughts and the fear of her.

Santas please don't give your mother the satisfaction of getting upset. You need to ignore her poison and avoid retaliation - she will just use it as further ammunition against you.

Yes, I do have moments like that - rather a lot of them actually, even years and much therapy later. It's part of why I haunt here.

The best way I've found to counteract it is to remember the actual specific concrete incidents and my reasonable mind is well aware that they are not normal or right. So I sort of set the incidents to the front of my mind and let the beliefs that I'm a failure and really am useless collide with the actual events.

It really does help reassure me that the beliefs are mistaken, because if those people could behave so badly - as the incidents show clearly- then 1) they are so off-kilter in their assessments and 2) it became clear they had a vested interest in thinking badly of me. Big style.

er, not sure that's a great explanation

The parenting thing is very difficult. Knowing what to avoid and wanting to be different is a HUGE step in the right direction but it's not the only one. The next big one is catching yourself when you fall into deep-laid patterns of behaviour and consciously choosing a different way.

I struggle with this too.

Thanks meerka

I think I panic because my mum was actually great when I was little, I remember lots of cuddles and baking and going places together, it's only when I hit puberty (around the same time my parents divorced) that she really "turned", and at every 'sign of growing up' since then it's been a conflict especially finding out when I first had sex - that's still brought up as part of my 'deceit' nearly 15 years later

So I worry that things might be ok while my boys are little (only 4 and 18 months now) I may be the same when they try and grow away from me, you know?

I'd say get a dog (which I actually would love) so I don't 'cling' too tight on the kids and I'd be able to let them grow up a bit easier but my mother got hers about 7 years ago and really freaks me out with it, calling herself it's mummy/saying it's my sister, buying it outfits, kicking off that it wasn't an invited guest at my wedding...

badgers hi :)

The dreams are really hard to handle yeah. I do hope that therapy can help.

Glad that your sister in engaged, lovely :) Hope her fiance knows what's in store ...

wow santas .... your mum needs help. Not that she'll get it, ofc.

Actually you know, getting a dog might be a good litmus test. Either you won't go the same way at all as her, or you will have tendancies that way - in which case you can practise curbing them.

Actually because you're so concerned about it, it's very unlikely you will turn into her

God meerka, that's not even the tip of the iceberg! As sadly, I suspect, it is for most people on this thread.
I would love to have a dog, it'll have to be when the boys are older, not as my replacement baby (hopefully!) just that I couldn't devote enough time to training etc with 2 preschoolers

Thanks for your response, seeing how other people react sort of helps because all the 'crazy' becomes normal for you doesn't it? It's only when you see how shocked/disbelieving other people are, you realise that the problem might not be you, you know?

Got the preliminary results back but they'll be a full post mortem in about six months. Unbearable.

Funeral date can be arranged now. Can't be next week as it's the anniversary of my sisters death, and her birthday. So it's late the week after.

I have to tell Ds dont I. I've rehearsed it in my head now. I can't bear it. I've finally tried to read up about how 4 or 5 year olds react. It's horrible.

I can't handle going up to stay in my parents house - assuming I'm allowed, assume I will be as she will want no one to know that I've not been welcome for years. I think I won't be allowed not to. And then I will be drowning in the stuff of home which is nothing without him. I lost everything when I moved out, my whole life and every person I used to know. Because they all believe her reality and I cannot ever contradict it and win. I can't show what I'm feeling, I cannot show anything, whilst I fulfil the role for my mother, my old world, and my son, and I can't do it, can't. oh my daddy, why is this happening,

I will have to stand there outside the church, next to her, where I stood with both my parents whilst my sisters coffin went past a few years ago. And then everyone had words of comfort and loss to share. And I know it will be the same, but less people. And I know so many will say 'it's just you and your mum now, hold each other together' and it will choke me so I can't breathe every time.

I don't have the strength to do it.

misc you don't have to stay there if you don't want to. you don't.

You can use your father's death to do what you want to from now on. You don't have to be around your mother.

I do think you urgently need some support. Can you go back to your doctor?

About children and grief. This -is- very hard. Michael Rosen's Sad Book is quite good to read to them a few days after telling your son.

About the funeral. Would it help to imagine a wall of iron around you and all the "hold to your mother"crap can bounce right off it? every time someone says that, imagine the wall, then smile and nod.

Oh misc, I'm so sorry for your pain

Meerka is absolutely right in saying that you don't have to stay with your Mum. Neither do you have to stand with her outside the church. Focus on yourself and your son, take whatever help you can get and be kind to yourself.

Misc

I would be speaking to CRUSE as they are very helpful when it comes to bereavement support.

Re the post mortem did you mean to write six days rather than six months?. I ask only as such things if carried out are normally done within 2-3 days after death.

You certainly do not have to be around or anywhere near your mother.

I wish you every peace for the dark days ahead of you because this will eventually pass.

No six months.

I emailed cruse some time ago when it first happened, but they didn't reply.

Really, in six months time?. Good heavens. Who told you this; if it was for instance your mother in particular I would really double check.

I would phone CRUSE rather than e-mail them; sometimes the old fashioned way is much better. You will be able to speak to someone if you do that.

sending you (((hugs))) and strength for the facing with your lovely DS, who will not be as conflicted about it as you are. He will be in a totally diferent place. Often talking about dead spiders and bugs and then other things that he's already familiar with will help him to know he already knows abbout this and of course, it will happen to everything in the world.

Honestly? I spoke to my teens the other day about their GF dying, when similar ages, i think the youngest being maybe 5. They don't really remember it with any emotion much, and don't remember the moment they were told, wellt he eldest one does, and i gave them the choice of whether to go to the funeral or not (to say goodbye).

There interaction with his loss was completely different to mine, especially regarding the complexities that were around your attachment to him that they won't have and won't be aware of.

thats shocking for me to hear that he will not have a full PM for six months? I cannot understand that, yes, wonder about that if its come from your mother as i cannot see any reason why it would be suspended this long.

take lots of good careof you both

I would double check the 6 months too, misc.

It takes heroic effort to find the energy to ask questoins of the hospital in this sort of situation. But if you possibly can, do. This sounds exceptionally unusual.

Please do go back to your doctor and tell him that you MUST have support. Or social services. This isn't okay. You are doing your heart's effort best but you need support.

Hello again, haven't had a chance to post or read much in a while, sorry!

Hugs to everyone who needs one.

I went NC with my mother before Christmas, after she pulled her usual 'look at me, I'm SO UNHAPPY' stunt at her birthday. I was furious, as she did it at the end of the day, as I was leaving to drive 3 hours home, with DD (10mo). She knew my DSis would insist on going after her (stormed off) and talking her down (I told DSis not to bother, but I was her lift, so got sucked in). I finally got home after 11.30pm that night thanks to the fucking drama queen stunt.

I then emailed to say enough, I'm done pandering to you being the most tragic, the most put upon, the most unhappy, and that taking precedence over everything else. I know NC means that, but I had to have my say, it was something I needed. I told her how much I felt hurt by her controlling, by her need to upstage everything with her drama, by her self-obsessing. Not in those terms, obvs

When I gave in and spoke to her the other day, apparently she is the aggrieved party, and I owe her an apology for my 'tirade'. I told her that her reaction to being told that she's hurt me hugely makes me realise that she doesn't care at all, and she emailed today to say she wants to talk, and 'get her loving caring daughter back'.

Get her doormat punchbag back, more like it. Fucking controlling, narcissistic shite. I'm so done.

Humpty

I sincerely hope that you can stay done with your mother this time and not give in again. Why did you go back last time; was it out of the usual combination of fear, obligation and guilt or was it some other reason/s?. She may well now try and pull out all the stops (and perhaps also involve your sister as her winged monkey) to drag you back into her web of dysfunction; she may well not want to leave you alone at all. I would be fully prepared for her to try and drag you back in.

Such women like your mother do not change and it is not possible to have a relationship with a narcissist. You know this by now.

No more e-mailing her at all now, this has to be the line in the sand. I would also suggest you now block her from your e-mail account and stop her too calling your mobile phone and landline numbers. I would also suggest you read this article from Lightshouse about how to go no contact:-

www.lightshouse.org/how-to-go-no-contact.html#axzz3ORXHxQWE

If your mother has not already started on your child by commenting in a vile manner, she will go onto do given any opportunity.

She needs to stay cut off from you and your own family unit for your sake.

She was not a good parent to either you or your sister when growing up (such women often also have a golden child/scapegoat dynamic going on as well) and she is certainly not a good grandmother to your child either. You need to keep your DD well away from her.

Narcissistic grandparents make for being deplorably bad grandparents and I know that all too well. Do not let your mother emotionally manipulate your child.

Hey, humpty it sounds like you are talking about my mother, it's uncanny! Mine also referred to my (very restrained) letter as a "tirade".

How are you doing G2B?. Hope you are feeling better now, I read you were not feeling too good recently.

Mr M and I are okay but we still have FIL funeral's to attend at some point in the near future. I sincerely wish I did not have to go to his burial (and I did make some comment when that was announced to DH to the effect of oh yes he would want that wouldn't he, could not help myself there!) but I have no choice but to attend.

I am also led to believe we will not be getting much to eat at the wake!.

Attila I know, the email was probably foolish. I felt I needed to have my say, and I knew when I sent it that it wouldn't make her see the light. I answered the phone because I felt I needed to give her the chance to say she was sorry. I was 98% sure she wouldn't, and she didn't, and that's her choice. It's really sad, and it makes me sad and angry, but I can't change her. I can cut her out of my life, and that is what I will do.

She had already begun to make unkind comments about DD, and that was what prompted the revelation/change in the first place. I will NOT let her hurt my daughter, the way she hurt me, and she's proved that that's all she's capable of doing.

She's already got my DF as a winged monkey (despite them being divorced!) and when I see him next, I will make it clear to him that a) my decision is not open to discussion or persuasion, and b) if he can't stop himself repeating her lies and manipulation, I simply can't talk to him either. I don't think he will continue, as he's doing it to make peace (his DM was a very difficult and critical woman, it's a role he's always played), rather than as a true enabler. I don't know, but I think he needs me to set a clear boundary, and then we will be okay. At least I hope so.

My DSis is almost NC with her anyway, sort of in a default way - she barely picks up the phone to anyone in the family, and works stupid hours, so I think that will be okay, but I'm aware that mother will do anything she can to re-snare me. This time, she won't. She's crossed a thick black line in the sand. She has attacked me, my DH, my DD, and my marriage. These are not targets, and I won't let her hurt them.

G2B nice to hear from you, and yes, it's spooky, eh? Aren't we wicked, to dare to criticise our sainted mothers? Oh WAIT, YOU MEAN THE WAY THEY HAVE UNDERMINED AND CRITICISED US ALL OUR LIVES? Sauce for the goose, and all that... Not much fun to be on the receiving end, is it?

Hum ho, I feel quite sanguine, and I do think I've made my peace with it for now. I've done what I needed to do for closure, and I stand by my actions and my words. This worm has turned!

Sorry, forgot to say, Attila I hope the wake goes okay, and you emerge unscathed (and fed!)

Good for you, humpty our situations sound really spookily similar. I think the only difference is that my won't try to re-ensnare me. I'm fairly confident she'll never bother with me again ever actually. She does that, cuts people out when they offend her.

Attila I'm much better, was just a stomach virus. Still feeling brilliant about sending my mum my therpay letter. Feel calm and strong and at peace.
Really hope it all goes as well as it can with the wake, thinking of you xx

I just did it. Was awful cos he kept laughing and smiling and looking at me hopefully that id turn it into something not sad. Then he gave this horrible gut wrenching cry which split my heart. and when he stopped he asked me exactly what happened in lots of detail about how his heart stopped working and why that was bad and why people need hearts and how the doctors tried to make it better and did they do cutting, and then awfully, what was he doing when he died and what he looked like and who saw him and what happened next etc etc etc and whether his bones went out of him and what he looked like when he died and then he hid under the covers for ages and wouldn't show his face, then played at being a kicky animal and went round the room kicking everything harder and harder and I stopped him worried about him hurting his feet and he kicked me hard instead. Never done that before.

Jesus. I can't say how awful it was, surreal, and so transparently stereotyped it felt not real somehow, like he was playing at it, and he kept smiling really randomly and inappropriately.

I have him a drink of milk in a bottle (occasional vice still) and now we cuddling watching dinopaws.

My heart hurts. Feel sick. He's sensing every move I make. It's awful

Oh and he said sort of trying it out 'I don't have a grand daddy' and then he said 'I don't have a daddy either' and I was trying to explain he's not dead (just an abusive bastard), and he cried for his daddy too.

Feel like I've been through a storm

And now he just did a prayer :(