"But we took you to stately homes!!!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

It's December 2014, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
October 2014

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

ok i'm not expecting a response because i know there is tons going on on here and this is not important but i need to spit it out on here because i haven't even been allowing myself to spit it out clearly in my own head.

i like someone who i feel safe with and who makes me laugh and can keep up with me and surprise me in conversations and who seems to really like me too and be unafraid of that, i've in no way hidden my quirks and 'ishoos' and they don't seem to have scared him off. we get on great and enjoy each others company and are really comfortable together. presumably this is all good and healthy and normal but i am really scared for some reason i don't understand.

for those who were on my original thread months and months ago they'll know this was already lurking in my head but it's come to the fore with so much confirmation about how well we get on and seeing more of each other and it feeling like we'll have to 'do' something about it at some stage given we live far apart.

anyway that's it. i have spat it out that being liked, and liking, and the idea of a 'normal healthy' relationship scares me and has me feeling weepy re: i am a freak.

I see why you think he might be on the spectrum. It really would be a good idea to get him checked out by a professional, arg That's a really weird reaction to you having cheated on him. Plus the other stuff, the big things and the day to day stuff.

But from what you've said there is frankly a lot of good in him. He really pulls his weight in practical matters and that does matter. Doing all that stuff to celebrate your birthdays etc, that shows someone who is trying to please you. there -is- kindness in him after all.

If he could be closer emotionally, would he be the perfect man for you?

It's reasonable to need emotional closeness. It's normal and okay. For you personally, it's essential.

If you think you'd be happy with him if he was more emotionally competent, it's worth trying to see if things can change.

Maybe the counsellor can help or if he is on the spectrum, there are things that can help. An asperger's friend of ours got intensive training in how neurotypical people interact and the social cues and needs, and it's turned him into a great deal easier person to be around.

How does he handle it when your son falls over and needs a hug or throws a tantrum?

From what you've said, I actually think there is hope, but no guarentees, that maybe things could improve.

I would really suggest asking him to get checked out and then get professional guidance on what to do. As part of that process, tell the professionals the problems you're having.

Failing that or after that, talk to him about this emotional side of things. What you need and how very deeply important it is to you. If he does struggle to express his emotions and to provide you with support it may be a long term problem but something that you could try to work with together. He needs to actually see it first though, and at the moment it sounds like he doesn't.

As for your father - what a piece of work. (I'd have been tempted to be really offensive when he asked for a kidney!) Can your mother not block him? She doesn't need his shit. She must have been extraordinarily rave and determined to leave someone so nasty, especially if she's quiet and timid. A true act of courage, he can't have made it easy.

I hope you're okay after your session. They can be draining. If it's been hard hitting, please take it easy for a couple of days and don't expect too much of yourself.

I should have said again: What you want, emotional closeness, is normal and right and should be there is a relationship. It's ok to want that. You're asking a reasonable thing.

honey, feel for ya. Scary stuff isn't it? Takes courage to be open to even the good things that come sometimes.

go for it girl, you'll be alright

TheHoneyBadger,

re your comment:-
"surprise me in conversations and who seems to really like me too and be unafraid of that, i've in no way hidden my quirks and 'ishoos' and they don't seem to have scared him off. we get on great and enjoy each others company and are really comfortable together. presumably this is all good and healthy and normal but i am really scared for some reason i don't understand".

Have you ever talked to a counsellor about this issue?. The roots of all this may well be buried in your own childhood particularly in the event your own parents were cold and unemotional.

You may be scared perhaps because you are afraid of being rejected or "not good enough".

Oh and you are NOT, repeat NOT, a freak. No, no absolutely not. I wish you well going forward.

Meerka

Perhaps I have inhabited other parts of this relationship board for too long but Argh's man does come across as scarily similar to her own abusive father. His nice behaviours are the barest of minimums that a person should bring to any relationship.

I doubt very much that Argh's man is actually anywhere on the ASD spectrum. He also acts like this because he can.

I feel too confused to post anything coherent about my situation right now but wanted to say, honey, that sounds wonderful. I hope you can go forward with this man and be happy

Don't be fooled into thinking the abuse isn't 'bad enough to leave'. If you are treated in any way less than cherished, loved and respected, it is bad enough to leave.

Good morning ladies, how is everyone this morning? I hope you're all well

ARGHtoAhHH, you need to get out of that relationship as soon as possible for the sake of your mental health and your DC. I understand that it'll be hard, but you have to leave. You don't need a partner to help you. You're strong enough to be a single parent, but you just may not realise that yet. Sometimes the thought of being a single parent is worse that actually doing it. IME, my friends (most are single parents) have all said they'd bail out of a relationship at the first sign of emotional/mental/physical abuse. They say that the physical, emotional and mental health and welfare of their DC are the most important things for them in a relationship and if their DP won't/can't put the welfare of the DC first, then they are out.

Imagine you're friend has come to you looking for advice on her current situation. Now, she has explained her situation and it is exactly what you are going through. So, what would you advise her to do, based on the knowledge of your own circumstances? Sometimes it takes people to see things from that angle to realise the extent of the situation they're in. When you're in the thick if it, sometimes you can't see the wood for the trees, for want of a better phrase.

How are things getting along with your mum OP? Have they picked up or not?

atilla I could see him being highly abusive yes. But I do think that there could be other explanations. if he's ASD then it might explain the weird lack of emotion. Control freaks would not tolerate an affair and never mention it again, they'd use it as ammunition to make the poor woman pay and pay and pay. He also doesn't try to restrict her going out. I could see the talk of suicide as being manipulation or a genuinely very depressed man.

I'm just wondering really. Could see it being either thing, abuse or (considerable) emotional incompetence or possibly ASD. Just think it's worth getting a medical check there. Messing around guessing doesn't achieve very much, best to know.

If there is another explanation than abuse (if), then maybe there is a future for them together. Maybe with the best will in the world on both sides, it wouldn't work out.

Completely agree though that arrg should be loved, cherished and respected!

thanks.

attila even sitting quietly observing for half an hour i know what it is (instead of pinging in the pinball machine). my obligation is to fail and be miserable and prove them right and fulfill the role they gave me, my fear is the fucking tirade or punishment that would fall upon me somehow sometime everytime something went well for me or i achieved something and my guilt is that i don't deserve anything good and somehow i have tricked someone, the universe, whatever into not realising who they say i am once again. old, old shit still taking the emotional reigns sometimes.

that sort of thing anyway.

it's a bit like you exorcise more and more of this shit endlessly but there are seemingly always more dragons to slay as drama lama as that sounds. still every time is progress right?

Okay, that wasn't what I expected. The lady was really warm and seems lovely. I did most of the talking, and told her basically everything. Didn't cry as much as I thought I would. She listened and basically said she thought we had different ways of expressing our love for one another (!) She recommended a book called The 5 languages of Love (or something) and suggested we both find out what ours are, as a starting point. She really was saying that I should try and see the relationship from another angle (not necessarily his) before I write it off.

I was expecting her to say I was in an abusive relationship. But she said she couldn't tell, that he just sounded "absent". And that the history of hurt (with my father and my partner) needed to be addressed as it seemed to be hindering my view as to what a relationship should be.

Once all that has been dealt with, I can reevaluate the relationship with new eyes.

I do feel better to have offloaded. Next session next Tuesday

Hey ARGH - glad you found the Stately Home thread ok. Sounds like you've had some excellent advice already.
I'm also glad that you found your counsellor warm and that you were able to offload.
Did your DP participate in the session? What were his views on it?
What was his upbringing like?
I'm not an expert at counseling, but your counsellor's response to what you've told her seems akin to putting an Elastoplast on a broken leg. Unless she's going to review what you've told her and come back with more insightful stuff next week.
I don't think a book about love languages is going to fix 15 years of relationship angst, fed by an abusive upbringing.
However, it's a start and if I were in your position I would:

1. get some skilled therapy on your own in order to deal with the fallout from your upbringing. Your DF sounds like a truly AWFUL piece of work.
2. get your DP diagnosed / counsellled so you know what you're dealing with. He could be emotionally absent / stunted / abusive or autistic - or a combination of all! Whatever he is, he's not good for you.
3. then go for couple counseling if and when you are BOTH fully committed and engaged with it.

Fix yourself first OP and then your relationship. I think though that soon, after some decent therapy, you won't want to fix your relationship and will see it for what it is.

I would agree with all of Fuzzyfelt's previous post and in particular this made by her also:-

"I'm not an expert at counseling, but your counsellor's response to what you've told her seems akin to putting an Elastoplast on a broken leg. Unless she's going to review what you've told her and come back with more insightful stuff next week.
I don't think a book about love languages is going to fix 15 years of relationship angst, fed by an abusive upbringing.
However, it's a start and if I were in your position I would:

1. get some skilled therapy on your own in order to deal with the fallout from your upbringing. Your DF sounds like a truly AWFUL piece of work.
2. get your DP diagnosed / counsellled so you know what you're dealing with. He could be emotionally absent / stunted / abusive or autistic - or a combination of all! Whatever he is, he's not good for you.
3. then go for couple counseling if and when you are BOTH fully committed and engaged with it".

What is making me wonder whether this counsellor is any good long term or not is her telling you to read The 5 languages of love. Also her use of the word "absent" re your man. It all to me does not actually bode well for your future sessions but it is indeed a start and you may well find her more helpful next week. TBH though if she keeps on in this vein, you may well decide that this person is not the counsellor for you in any case. BTW is this person actually BACP registered or is she a Relate counsellor?.

I think it will do you good anyway to talk to someone in a safe and controlled environment. I would not involve him in any of these sessions you are having.

A lack of emotion could well be attributed to his own upbringing rather than he being on the spectrum. ASD does not automatically equal abusive emotionless, cold hearted or selfishness.

I do not think this man is at all bothered about you and is more of a "my way only" type of individual.

I still believe your man is nowhere on the ASD spectrum and even if he was on the spectrum (and do any of you really think he would agree to any sort of assessment) it does not automatically equal abusive behaviour. There is no justification whatsoever for his ill treatment of you.

I would agree with all of Fuzzyfelt's previous post and in particular this made by her also:-

"I'm not an expert at counseling, but your counsellor's response to what you've told her seems akin to putting an Elastoplast on a broken leg. Unless she's going to review what you've told her and come back with more insightful stuff next week.
I don't think a book about love languages is going to fix 15 years of relationship angst, fed by an abusive upbringing.
However, it's a start and if I were in your position I would:

1. get some skilled therapy on your own in order to deal with the fallout from your upbringing. Your DF sounds like a truly AWFUL piece of work.
2. get your DP diagnosed / counsellled so you know what you're dealing with. He could be emotionally absent / stunted / abusive or autistic - or a combination of all! Whatever he is, he's not good for you.
3. then go for couple counseling if and when you are BOTH fully committed and engaged with it".

What is making me wonder whether this counsellor is any good long term or not is her telling you to read The 5 languages of love. Also her use of the word "absent" re your man. It all to me does not actually bode well for your future sessions but it is indeed a start and you may well find her more helpful next week. TBH though if she keeps on in this vein, you may well decide that this person is not the counsellor for you in any case. BTW is this person actually BACP registered or is she a Relate counsellor?.

I think it will do you good anyway to talk to someone in a safe and controlled environment. I would not involve him in any of these sessions you are having.

A lack of emotion could well be attributed to his own upbringing rather than he being on the spectrum. ASD does not automatically equal abusive emotionless, cold hearted or selfishness.

I do not think this man is at all bothered about you and is more of a "my way only" type of individual.

I still believe your man is nowhere on the ASD spectrum and even if he was on the spectrum (and do any of you really think he would agree to any sort of assessment) it does not automatically equal abusive behaviour. There is no justification whatsoever for his ill treatment of you.

ARGH i just want to say i'm really sorry for being so ignorant and hello! i can't see my arse for my elbow at the minute to coin a crude phrase. bit of an emotional spin plus trying to pack and get sorted to leave the country in about 43hrs. i hope i'm not usually this ignorant. glad you're being taken care of here x

I'm not ok. Sorry, I hurt so much, I can't deal with it. Haven't told Ds yet. Nothing feels real.

i'm sorry how much you're hurting too misc. it was a thread you were hanging on by i think? your fathers support?

i 'think' this is the point where somehow things have to change, there has to be a breakthrough to more support and help in your life as there is so much to juggle when you are coping with illness and motherhood alone. it's like you have to both grieve and face the loss of that lifeline and how you're going to move on without it at the same time? sorry if i'm way off track but it seems like it is a lot at once for you. i'm really sorry x

have had a very honest conversation with the 'friend' across continents. i think we can be ok. i think we're both a little freaked out about how healthy and happy and 'nice' things can be without drama or headfucks.

maybe just maybe i'm ready to be happy and say 'fuck off' to all the programming that demands otherwise.

do you know - non surprise as this may be to some of you - it may just be possible for me to walk away from here, give my son a new family and sense of more than just me and have a happy wide life that doesn't mean having to let my abusers and torturers back into my life in order for my son not to feel too isolated?

i appreciate that to most this might not seem a massively radical idea but to me it's pretty earth shattering tbh.

Yes that's about right. I have nothing left and no way of going on. I've been incredibly proactive and intelligent about accessing help and support and I've been fighting for and protecting Ds all his life to try and make things work. And I can't do it.

And I have nothing left. Only pain and misery and loneliness and insurmountable problems and emergency after emergency. And never get to take a breath before the next life threatening thing comes crashing down. And no way out.

I know I'm still avoiding it most of each moment of the day, as when it hits I will get swept away.

Misc i am really sorry to hear you are suffering so much right now. Do you have anyone around you at all that is supportive? either as a friend or professional? It really sounds like you need to take some time out for yourself and have good supports in your life to help you have a break and feel supported whilst you let out all your grief for the loss of your DF.

I hear you are scared you will get swept away, but this is possibly simply stemming a growing tide;no matter how or when it hits, it will inevitably subside, you will just need something solid to cling to while it does. Find something solid for you.

Sending you kindness for you, and strength to know its ok to not have to hold it together 247. Do speak to someone if you can try to?

Was it CRUSE that someone suggested a way back? take care.

how can you give your son a new family Honey ? if you have family that you can move to and leave behind the toxicity that would be amazing for you both. yes, its earth shattering. I'm sure its blowing apart all the beliefs you had about your situation.

I have the same situation, but it would mean moving country, but i am feeling very close to doing it. Here is isolation, at least I would be with family. What i wonder is, what will happen if we just leave the country. me the and the dc, is this child abduction? I am not married to the abusive father who has a court order against him and never lets up. I feel ppushed to the edge, and left behind an abusive family years ago, but have been offered a new start in another country with family there.. can i take it? Am I allowed this new start away from all this shit?

i have heard of the 5 languages of love book. i totaly agree with whats being said above, and you will find there isn't a language of love in abuse, or in an emotionally 'absent'.

thats the thing, and as dangerous as mediation or counselling with an abusive sort, this would be about you changing the way you 'speak' with this man in order to meet him in his language.

apparently its all the rage! but it won't work with an abuser or other types that just don't do love, so your counsellor has taken a massive step in one first session alone by telling you he is not abusive and recommendingthat you learn to speak his language.

Please check before going further whether this counsellor has specialist dv training, as this will preclude her from making any kind of reliable assessment of your presentation of the relationship, and if she misses abuse the rest could be significantly damaging for you.

i think you would need legal help. my son has no contact with his father and he is not on the birth certificate and has never applied for PR so that is not a restriction we have. i feel for you in that situation.