Abusive men - is it nature or nurture?

[WinterGloves]

MN threads, personal relationships, friends relationships, news stories... There seems to be abusive men everywhere. I've recently left an abusive relationship and I know at least 3 other people in relationships where the man is emotionally abusive.

Even when there is no abuse, you only have to read MN to see there are liars, cheats, entitled, absent parents, drinking all weekend and uncaring men everywhere.

They can't all have been raised this way surely? Is it outside influences that makes them act this way? Media? Porn? TV? Or are they just born wired to think that they superior and more deserving?

I'm raising boys. They are gentle and loving and I would hate to think that one day they might treat their partners badly.

Obviously I know that women can be all of the above too.

And I can see that my post is very anti men. And I'm sure that's unfair to some men, but I'm talking from personal experience which has coloured my view.

Abusive men are a product of poor parental influence, especially fatherless children.. Myriad upon and myriad of studies support this theory..

That's a pretty simplistic 'Daily Mail' view of the world and I don't buy it. As a lone female parent to a DS I can safely say my child is not abusive, dysfunctional, educationally challenged or heading for a life of crime either.

My DH and BIL had both parents around all the time and were loved/cherished and set reasonable boundaries, a rather insulting generalisation frank

Nurture does impact but also in a positive way. Some children are more resilient than others. Resilience is also developed environmentally - and can be developed. It can also be a matter of luck, for example female children tend to be more resilient, attractive children, higher intelligence. Those aren't factors that can be affected by environment. However things like having one consistent non abusive adult in their lives, having health needs met etc can be environmental.

There are also factors like prenatal exposure to drugs, alcohol and domestic violence that can affect children's development, is that nature or nurture?

Having an abusive father present is far more likely to damage a child than having no father present.

It's a very interesting subject and emotional abuse is just as damaging as physical abuse, so the boys you see who are kind and non-physically agressive may still grow up to be emotionally abusive.
My dad was physically and emotionally abusive. My brother has had therapy and would be horrified if anyone said he was abusive. I've never witnessed how he is in his few serious relationships... But I've had arguments with him and found he can be agressive and nit-picky and when he does discuss relationships with me, all problems seem to be his partners 'fault.'
My DP is EA. He is also a kind passive man who had a totally absent father until aged 18, and a mum who beat him (it was culturally acceptable).
It's complicated!!

I think it is mostly nurture, but nature does play a part, otherwise everyone who suffered abuse as a child would go on to be an abuser, and everyone who was brought up by kind loving parents would turn out fine. That is clearly not the case, although it often is.

NCIS, I would be interested to know what your BIL experienced in his first 6 weeks. I think that can make a lot of difference to a child, as the brain is developing so much in the first few weeks.

@Charley50.... are you emotionally or physically abusive?

No I'm not but I am insecure and have had to keep jealousy in check in the past. I would say that my childhood experiences have had a negative impact on my relationships and expectations and boundaries.

.... Until I met my sons dad at 31, I made sure I went out with good guys.. I'd never entertain an abuser. With these good guys I always felt something was missing (wanted nice guy but didn't understand how a good relationship worked). My DS dad was abusive and I got rid quickly (he has good relationship with DS). My next and now long term DP started out lovely but can be emotionally absent and stonewall me. This is the only relationship I've felt jealous in. Sorry for long post.

I'd say it's a bit of both, some people are born pre disposed to violence and lacking in empathy. They now know that sociopaths are born that way and that their brains are wired differently from others.

However I think in most cases its nurture particularly in cases of childhood abuse or neglect and to some extent the way we have traditionally raised boys and girls, with greater expectations on girls to behave, conform and put others first. We have traditionally made allowances for boys behaving badly, my recent split from my ex has shown me that with female friends telling me I should just accept his cuntish behaviour 'for the sake of the kids' and not rock the boat.

From some quarters he should just be allowed to get away with being a crap father and I should just suck it up and spoon feed him to make him a better Dad. And it has been female friends and family members who have been most vocal about this. I doubt they would extend the same level of understanding if it had been me who had walked out on my kids.

I think everyone has insecurities and having been neglected or ignored as a child can sometimes be enough to change behaviour in adult life. When you are used to fighting for attention or adapting your behaviour in order to get any nurturing this plays out in adult life as neediness or abuse or both at the same time.

I'm not sure what the answer is but being listened to help. Don't talk to your children about x y and z issue, take time to listen when there is something they want to say.

It's not a daily mail view of the world, stop being so solipsistic..

I think the influence of nurture is only just being realised. Aren't there a few studies coming out now that people with psychopathic traits need a certain combination of circumstances in their family lives which make it far more likely that they will develop into criminals, while people with similar traits and a more stable upbringing (usually - there are always exceptions) don't?

Aren't there parts of the country where violence towards women, wife beating, stalking of ex partners, etc. are far more common than others and don't those areas tend to have ingrained attitudes about the role of the woman being subservient to the man and the man being entitled to clip his wife a clip round the ear if she gives him aggro (or doesn't have his tea on the table)?

You also just have to look at the number of spoilt little emperors, whose mummies run around after them doing everything and telling them they're wonderful; who can't run a bath or wash their own clothes, and you think what woman would want them, and which unlucky woman is going to end up with them?

I think the nurture view is a little too simplistic, and, dare I say it, a little bit like "I blame the mother". Either the mother is too soft, or she should have made a better choice of mate.

There is no doubt that a damaging childhood produces a damaged adult, but as adults we can make choices about our behaviour. How often do we hear the comment "Does he do that at work" when discussing EA/violent behaviour in relationships. So people can choose to change the way they respond to situations in different environments.

As adults we can also begin to recognise if we have had a damaging childhood and take responsibility for fixing ourselves. My ex might have had a shit EA father but it was my ex's choice, and his alone, to be aggresive and abusive. The desire to change has to come from within - it is not for the women to "fix" an EA/violent partner. Otherwise we are at that other cliche - "He will change if I just love him enough."

I think it's a choice anyone makes.
I know it's difficult to change if you were brought up with abuse, but if anyone wants to change they can! My own DM was - and still is - very abusive. I decided I never wanted to be her, and it's a fight especially when my DD2 is kicking off, but I NEVER want anyone to go through what I did.
On paper my dc look dead cert to be abusive - eldest born when I was 16, next at 18, then 20 then 23. More than 1 'abusive/neglectful partner' etc. But so far, none of them are.
IME Everyone has a choice.

worldgonecrazy well either way people are blaming parents- they are responsible for the genes we inherit!

Having said that I didn't and others didn't mention mothers in their assertions of nurture being the dominant force. Our parents are big parts of our lives, mostly, but their love or care (or lack thereof) may have little or no relevance if there are other things happening in life. Wider society has a huge impact. Specifically expectations of how and how not boys should perform their masculinies, if we are talking about men as abusers. No parent is solely responsible for that. We are all responsible.

Also (to a different post) we have not "shown" that sociopaths are born bad? We can never show that... we can't ethically seperate "nature" and "nurture" to the extent that we could evidence causation.

'They now know that sociopaths are born that way and that their brains are wired differently from others.'

This is not strictly true. Yes sociopaths brains are wired differently but this is not because they were born like it but because their brains developed differently, usually because of abuse/neglect in the formative years.

There is a 'critical period' between ages 0-5 where neural pathways in the brain form, if there is abuse and neglect in these formative years then those pathways that relate to the ability to feel empathy are not able to be formed fully. This is associated with a lot of anti-social/sociopathic traits and behaviour. 'They' don't really know why some people are affected worse than others but as a PP said, resilience and having a non-abusive adult present in a child's life are factors, as I expect is inherent personality type, or 'nature'.

As a therapist I am very much in the nurture camp but I think genetics has a small part to play too.

Going I have no idea what my BIL first weeks were like but I do know what DH's were. He was born to a single Mother in a home for unmarried Mother's, fed strictly to a four hour schedule and only bought to his Mother when that four hours was up regardless of how much he had been crying, he was then too tired to feed properly. When my Il's got him he looked half starved and MIL had to set an alarm to feed him as he didn't cry for food, just laid in his cot and went white so you would think he would be the one who would find it difficult to form relationships due to abandonment as a tiny baby.

I think it's a mixture of the two.

One thing I have noticed from posting on here is the number of women who had physically abusive fathers, marry emotionally abusive men and claim that because they are not being beaten up, that's OK.

I do think that's the way abuse is generally going: It isn't acceptable to hit women now and I have a hunch that fewer men do it but these men are showing their true colours in other ways.

In my case i believe it was learnt behaviour, his dad manipulated and controlled his mum, so of course the patterned continued.

It's odd, my ex is totally screwed up, unable to hold onto a relationship controlling. But his brother is absolutely fine. I don't know what he's like in a relationship of course, but he's got a small daughter and from the look of facebook seems involved, interested, excited about things which XP never was.

I reckon the tendency is inbuilt, and nurture makes it come out or not. Because TBH the descriptions of their home life as children were miles apart from how anyone I know would raise children today.

Similarly DH's childhood was odd, emotionally controlling kind of behaviour management. Out of 4 adult DC I would say two are "normal" (for want of a better word), the third perhaps a little codependent, the fourth (not in age order) quite manipulative and controlling herself. They all got the same messages from childhood but it manifested in different ways.

Cousins who grew up in an abusive household - the girl is in an unhealthy relationship now, the boy has a horrible attitude towards women, tends to come across OK, but I wouldn't encourage my best friend to date him.

My H, who I genuinely believed to be the font of all goodness and my moral superior in every way turned into an evil abusive bastard. He was severely depressed at the time and I am sure that had some bearing on it to say the least BUT I do believe something was going on inside the brain beyond that which caused him to abuse.

In his case, I think it was nurture. Tracing back his life, I think he became what he needed to be to survive. I believe nature made him a good, kind human being with the best intentions and strong moral values but that when placed under pressure he became like a caged, rabid animal.

The need to protect the self becomes almost pathological and then the person become capable of scary things.

I watched a kind man turn on his wife with the most unbelievable viciousness. Blaming me for his own behavior, gaslighting me, telling lies about me.

I believe he needed to do that to protect himself. I believe his other option would have been to admit he was doing bad things for no reason to an innocent person and that would have created a cognitive dissonance that was too much to handle.

He did not have a strong foundation. He didn't not have a good childhood. He had an abusive previous marriage. I don't think he KNEW he could be "bad" and still be loved, so he had to pretend to be good at all costs - even if it meant destroying his loving wife in the process.

I think those sot of issues can create emotional abuse in a person. They can be worked through I bet, but I think it involves going back through history, finding the incorrect emotional mapping and correcting it.

Few have the courage.

And there are different 'types' of abuser. Some people can't (or won't try to) control their tempers: these are the ones who don't just hit their partners/kids but can't keep a job because they will hit or swear at or throw things at co-workers/customers, who generally have spent time in prison for violent behaviours, etc. Oddly enough, this type can be more 'fixable' in that they can learn impulse control.
There's the sociopathic types who have to control and manipulate everyone around them, and the narcissists, and the ones who can only feel good if they are making someone else feel terrible.
And there's the men who have an absolute belief that women are not fully human; that a woman is something between a domestic appliance and a household pet with fuckable orifices. They may not be violent, they may not even be particularly verbally abusive but they cannot accept that their partners are autonymous people with no obligation to obey them and prioritize the man's comfort and wellbeing over everything else.

There's an awful lot in that last category :( Either overtly or with strong traces of it.

at least there are some truly decent men who are true partners around!