Who to believe. My mum or dd? Someone's lying.

[VivaLeBeaver]

Background. Mum has got history big time for being quite bonkers and rude. She speaks her mind with seemingly no concern for people's feelings. She has been unbelievably rude and nasty at times to myself, dh and my brother. Though now would deny all this and say she's only ever said stuff because she's concerned about us but people think she's been hyper critical, etc.

Dd is 13yo and while I would like to think she's a good kid and honest I accept I could be biased.

Some stuff she's done in the past includes writing me a 4 page letter after I told her I was pregnant spouting shit that dd could be disabled as I was living in sin and I should have an abortion. She once went crazy about how messy my house was when I was Ill in hospital to the extent she made dd cry. I have tried to keep her at arms length over the years.

So a few weeks ago she had dd overnight as a favour to me so I could go to a wedding. Dh was out the country. I posted about this at the time as again (so dd tells me) mum went spare saying the house was messy. Dd tried explaining we had the builders coming on the Monday and that's why stuff was piled up in the dining room.

When I picked dd up the next day she was upset saying that my mum had been saying that I was fat, that I had "too much meat on my legs" and that my brother "has a gut on him and will get diabetes and die". According to dd she also called dh a "bum licker"

I was upset after dd told me this but never got the courage to confront my mum. I did tell my brother about it who wasn't very happy. I'd kind of forgotten about it.

Anyway its all blown up. My brother has confronted my mum.

My mum admits the comments about me and my brother been fat but says the comments have been taken out of context and that she was discussing diets and healthy eating with dd. she totally denies saying anything about the house been messy and Denies calling dh a bum licker.

My brother has told her its disgusting that she's prepared to call dd a liar. And it sounds like they're both going NC with each other permanently over this. Mum says she can never forgive my brother for the things he's said, that he's said she has to apologise to dd and explain herself to him. She says she won't be spoken to like that by him.

I think my brother is pissed off that I'm prepared to let her get away with it.

I do believe dd over my mum I think but there's always a nagging part of me that says a 13yo could be stirring.....she doesn't like my mum.

Part of me thinks my mum is so bonkers that she will have convinced herself she never said it and will now genuinely think she didnt.

As a phrase I'd say that my mum is more likely to use the term "bum licker" than dd. though mum just denied that to me and said she would never say anything so "vulgar". My mum when mad has a mouth like a sewer and calls other car drivers fucking bastards, twats, etc. and she knows I've heard her use language like this......so why say she wouldn't use vulgar language?? Because I think she genuinely forgets she's like this and paints herself a different reality.

My dd can swear, but I've never heard her say "bum licker".

My gut feeling is just to forget it all.

It's as clear to me as anything that your dd is speaking only the truth and I support what your brother is doing. And I think it's massively important to make sure your dd knows this too.

How can you even doubt your DD in the taste of a malignant character such as this womasn? Even if it is your mother?! If you don't go no contact asap then one day you will lose your daughter as she will go away and not come back - thats if she hasn't been reduced to a nervous shadow of herself/quivering wreck by your monster of a mother.

For God's sake do the right thing and at least put your child 1st and protect her from all this crapp - why on earth would you ever have left her in the care of your mother? My mother is a nasty, vindictive woman..slyly spiteful because she didnt fix her own life and believes her daughters should have a miserable life too. She doesn't get near my daughters..once she started her poisonous malignant talk I rocketed her into orbit. Fuck that, Id had enough of her growing up, she's had her life and my daughters are more important to me than life itself..who the hell is my mother, in comparison? No way do I put an adult before a child - ever.

I know what I should do but just seem unable to do it.

I lost my dad less than a year ago. Just can't cope with this.

Im sorry about your father. Sometimes there are no good times to grasp the nettle but it seems like your mother's behaviour has been going on a long time, well before your father died, aye?

it's a start to know -what- you should do. Being unable to do it is a very difficult position. If you're paralyzed, you need to do something to break that paralysis.

What does your husband say?

Question: what does it matter if she paints you as the bad guy here? Your daughter and brother are more important, aye?

Please do get Toxic Parents and consider getting therapy. You sound absolutely terrified to stand up to her. But you're a grown woman and what can she do to you?

You have to get yourself together and deal with it. You have to, because of your DD. She's getting drawn in now, and it isn't fair. You know she's telling the truth, don't let her down by doubting her.

Viva you know what you have to do, love.

You need to find the strength to do it. Not only for dd's sake but for yours too.

You say that you won't let dd see her unsupervised. You know in your heart of hearts that that's not good enough. You're trying to keep the peace. Dd should not be subjected to her at all, whether visits are supervised or not.

I've seen so many of your posts over the years, I almost feel like I "know" you. You always give others such good advice and you're kind and compassionate to other posters. You always seem to know the right things to do.

But now it's your turn. You know what the right thing to do is, but you need to be kind enough to yourself to let you make that decision. You deserve happiness. You deserve a life without the stress that your mother brings. Please, allow yourself to make that decision

just a suggestion: make a time to see your brother and talk it over with him. Talk over what you've posted here, that you're struggling. (do say thank you. So many, many people with dragon-parents have no one to help them stand up against the dragon. Your brother really helped you here a great deal).

This is a great opportunity to gain support from your brother, IMO

Your mum sounds unhinged.
Please do not leave your dd with her again.

I think the bum licking is irrelevant here. Maybe she did say it, maybe she didn't. I would expect it to be 'arse licker' from an adult of her generation, 'bum licker' seems an odd turn of phrase.

Either way your mother has undermined you to your DD and conveyed a message to her that you are lesser because of your size. If she had really been talking kindly, your DD would have nothing to report.

Viva
Re your comments in quote marks:-
"I've told dd that I believe her".

Good

"She won't be seeing my mum again unless I'm with her".
No, no and no again. If your mother cannot and will not behave here at all decently then she gets to see NONE of you at all. Your boundaries re your mother are also too low anyway (this is also of your mother's doing).

You've been trained well by her Viva over the years to put your mother first with you last (this is what narcissistic mothers do to their dds, they certainly cause a lot of damage) and you are indeed mired in FOG.

I would fully concur with Meerka's suggestions to both read "Toxic Parents" by Susan Forward as well as seeking therapy from a counsellor.

The reason she is denying what she said about your husband is that you and your brother are fair game. But someone outside, who is not obligated by FOG, is likely to make moves to restrict her access.

You need to decide whether your daughter and brother are more or less important than your mother. Your description of her isnt showing her in any good light overall, to be honest.

I sense so much fear and obligation in your posts. Can't face your mum, worried you have pissed off your brother etc. Even the fact that you have chosen to focus on whether or not she called your dh a "bum licker" (she did btw).

What she said about yours and your brother's weight is unacceptable, let alone the other stuff. Start getting righteously angry and stop worrying about upsetting other people. You are being bullied and nothing will change if you don't let your reaction top it change.

I would write your dm an email explaining how things are going to go from now on and let go of her response. You can't control it and it doesn't really matter. You and your dd deserve better.

Sorry Viva, but I agree with Attila - you should be telling your DD she never has to see her Grandmother again unless she wants to. You go without her if you want to see your mum. Ideally outside of either of your homes.

Call your DB back, apologise for not backing his stance. say you're not ready to cut her out, but are going to limit her access to you and let your DD go no contact.

I actually think you have to challenge her and tell her that 1) you believe your daughter and 2) never, ever, ever to speak of your husband in that way again. To call your daughter's father a bum-licker is appalling behaviour.

Can also see that this is too difficult at the moment for you. But please begin to work on that fear of her.

Bum licker or arse licker is a very adult phrase and I doubt your DD would even know what it meant. Your mum is the liar here. The bright side is you can go NC finally. Your DBro even has your back on this, why wouldn't you?

Given that she has said such things (if not that precise phrase about that precise person) to your face, in front of reliable adult witnesses, and in writing, in the past, the balance of probabilities here is massively in favour of your DD telling the truth here, don't you think? I mean, really. You've pretty much said in your OP that your mother is totally capable of not only saying dreadful things to a 13-year-old (as she did to you at a similar age) but of denying it flatly later on. Whether she's lying to you or has convinced herself, no-one will probably ever know, of course. Make excuses for her on that front if you must - she clearly isn't quite on the same planet as the rest of us. But whether your hitherto honest DD has either misunderstood or made up a bunch of concepts and phrases she's never voiced before... that's not likely. How much do you respect children anyway? Is it because you were told you were so stupid as a child, and that you didn't hear what you are quite sure you heard, etc, that you don't believe a child can be a credible witness? Your DD is not grown-up by a long chalk, but she's not a silly little brainless thing either. And she does have ears.

I don't really understand why you're trying to excuse your mother, tbh. She has form, she's been incredibly rude about you all before, why on earth wouldn't you believe your DD?

Just accept your brother has the measure of her better than you do.

Having a mum who was rather similar, I know where your coming form Viva. I isnt think you're trying to excuse her, you just can't believe your own mum would behave like that, you're in denial and I think that's perfectly normal after years of emotional and verbal "games"

I think you should talk to your brother and you know you need to find the strength to have as little contact as possible with your mum.

My sister and I had a saying, which helped us "our mum never fails to disappoint" so no explanations are reasons necessary, just the truth.

I wonder if you are at some level intimidated by your mother? You want to 'let it go', you're reluctant to believe she's really as bad as she seems, making excuses for her. What would happen if you confronted her? Are you really trying to avoid some vicious, over-the-top retaliation from her? Or would she play the martyr card and make you feel guilty?

Sorry for typos

That's a very good point Auriga

Always dd. The truth always comes out in the end and if she has lied she will learn from her mistakr. A lying mother will learn nothing but will forgive her gd.

Remembering your threads & how we advised not to make your dd stay with her (and I right in that dd doesn't like her & didn't want to go?) and how she upsets everyone at the drop of a hat & then denies doing anything, my money is on your mum.

"taken out of context" is classical backtracking & trying to cover herself in glory!

Sorry...

my money is on your mum as the one who is lying