MIL problem to end all MIL problems

[InSuchAState]

I have posted about this before, vaguely, but many NCs ago, so if some details appear familiar, they probably are. Apologies that this will be massively long.

Basically: DP thinks - the thinks part is crucial - that when he was a child MIL sexually abused him. What he remembers are events where boundaries were crossed/ things were weird or inappropriate, but nothing that could definitely classed as deliberate, definitive abuse, rather than her just having very poor boundaries.

He has massive gaps in his memory, had huge issues around sex and intimacy which we're slowly getting to grips with, and, what is crucial for me, is that as teenager, when he says he can remember remembering more than he can now, though not what he remembered, iyswim, he believed the abuse happened. He is though not 100% sure. I am fairly sure it did happen.

MIL comes across as normal, niceish, if massively self-centred. We now have a small DS and let her have contact with him on the basis that it might not be true, but on the basis that it may be we absolutely never will leave him alone with her or let her babysit, (something I'm increasingly running out of excuses for but that's a whole other thread.)

What is currently exercising me is that I recently became aware that she regularly babysits for two small boys who are the children of younger friends of hers. I found this out entirely by chance and have no idea what to do. We sort of know them - as in could get in touch - and I really want to tell them, as if I was leaving DS with someone who someone else strongly believed was capable of such a thing I'd want to know. I suggested to DP that I go and see the wife of this couple - tell her the whole story in confidence, including that DP isn't sure it's true, and leave the ball in their court. DP totally flipped out. He's terrified they'd go to the police which he'd find extremely awkward (he is a policeman, small force, at least some of his colleagues would be bound to find out). He's of course also worried about the fallout within the family. He's horrified at the idea of people - anyone - knowing. Especially as he slightly doubts himself.

He is also, I think, furious with himself though for not doing something about it, now and before now - he once said to me when really quite drunk that he feels so weak, as he asks people professionally to do what he can't do himself, and stand up and publicly name their abusers.

Anyway the conversation about this babysitting freaked him out so much that I haven't raised it since but it's massively playing on my mind. I think if I just did it and somehow told them it would be an enormous betrayal of trust, and he would perhaps quite rightly not forgive me. Equally I feel like by doing nothing we are potentially enormously letting down two little boys. Equally, we could be spreading what would effectively be awful, malicious lies about a perfectly nice woman. He is paralysed, and I feel like I have to just make the decision. I can't.

Help?

Which can only be a good thing. You two need to talk about this. There are some very good points on this thread.

I did have the thought, although it may not really be a sensible one, that maybe you could write an anonymous note to the parents of the other boys hinting or stating your concerns with enough info that they don't send the boys there any more. You obviously know them and if that would work but may be an option?? At least the boys would be safe then if it is a problem.

I think that's a good thing OP.

Maybe if you and DH read each post and discuss your reaction to the suggestion it will help frame the conversation and boundaries for you both.

I agree with a comment above that "professional navigation "would be appropriate.

Again- so sorry you are both in this situation

What an awful situation for you both. I really think that you need to do 3 things:

• Tell your DP that you will be warning the other couple about your misgivings about MIL, so that you do not do it behind his back.

• Tell the couple that you do not leave your own DS with MIL because you suspect - although you have no proof - that she may have abused other young boys in the past.

• See with your DP if he is willing to get some professional counselling, so he can work through what are serious and troubling issues for him with a trained and neutral person.

And then of course give your DP all the support you can.

Good luck and good wishes to you both.

As others have said, at some point the babysitting issue is going to come to a head Plan now how to handle it.

It sounds as if your husband really does need to talk to his brother. Your husband clearly was abused to some degree, even if the details are blurred. Brother NC and won't easily say why? It simply screams 'suspicious'. Talking to him is an essential first step because hard as it is, you need to get all the information you can in order to build up a picture and then decide what action to take.

These other parents may wish some details yes, or they may not. I think that he's reluctant to face them becuase the whole thing is so appallingly painful. The six sessions he's been offered - hmm. Whom are they with? are they with someone trained in sexual abuse? Only being six is a problem yes becuase for some people they are enough, even people with terrible backgrounds, but for others they do open the box and then leave the person stranded. Some therapists offer a sliding scale of fees - might that be feasible?

If your husband doesn't raise it the next time he's got a day off, perhaps gently you can. As you're so very clearly aware, those other two little boys are defenseless.

This is horrendous. I think the easiest and quickest way forward is to talk to his brother as that can remain confidential. This brother may change his mind if he is aware mil is babysitting other boys.

DPs GP can refer for counselling although it may take a while.

Talk to the MiL? Maybe you and DP together.

As mentioned already drop hints to the parents of the young boys.

Bottom line is child protection as you both know but be aware if you tell the parents of the children involved and there is no foundation in DPs memories (which may be false) this is slander and of a very serious nature.

Could you approach social services to see if they can advise you? They balance legal and child protection issues all the time.

Well it looks like the worms are out of the can now OP's. I want to send my share of love and hugs too, to all of you.

Because of what happened over a century ago to my gran it made me red hot on CSA.

My gran was raised in an orphanage and I believe she was a victim of CSA. she never spoke about it only to warn us, her children and grandchildren .

My cousin was raised in another country and we had virtually NC for most of our lives . It was only when we met up and got chatting she said ' you have it too'. Like an extra antennae for keeping ourselves and our children safe from molesters. We talk about it often to keep it fresh in their minds.

Because the abuser had been a man in my gran's case I was on my guard with all men. I know now that women account for almost 50 per cent of CSA. I warned my children to be very careful around men in the family. If they suspected anyone to tell me. Fortunately everyone was kosher. My husband had very fuzzy boundaries and was one night going to let a drunken friend sleep on our sofa where our children were sleeping close by. I was appalled and drove him home. No way was I putting my children in harms way.

So, I know exactly where you are coming from. You have this precious new life and you want to protect him from all harm.

I'm so sorry husband but you need to be pro active now to protect your child . If you were abused or not, I don't know, you don't know but I don't think you are able to look back on your life with lovely happy memories.? There are some pieces of the jigsaw missing.

I think you need to have that heart to heart with your brother on your own. Tell him how you feel about your childhood, the blanks in your memory. Ask him if he is able to supply the missing information.

Tell him how you feel about your mother because of this and that you don't feel you want to leave your baby with her. Ask him if he knows why you would feel like this.

At this point I wouldn't mention the other boys. I would just see what he will open up about.

If he can tell you what you need to know then you have your starting point.

Then you can decide how to move it forward.

What a difficult situation for you both - and how horrible for it to come to a head like this with your worries about the other family.

I don't know if it's any help but in your position I would try and firmly seperate the two things.

You obviously need to help and support your DH with whatever route he decides to go down for the future and you have had some really good advice on here about how to do this. I would add though that this needs to be in his own time and when he is ready - not rushed or hurried because both of you have concerns over another family. In the mean time you are obviously doing everything you need to do to protect your own child and so I don't think there is any rush from this point of view either provided that you are strong enough to continue saying no to your MIL babysitting indefinitely.

With regards to the other family you do obviously need to do something relatively quickly and I don't think that either you or your DH are going to rest easy until you do something to warn them about your concerns. There are however a lot of ways in which you could do this without discussing your DH's personal business with them and in your position I would pick one of those.

A previous poster has mentioned an annonymous letter and I think in a lot of ways this might be the best option. You would need to write it carefully so that it wasn't identifying either to the family or your MIL but with enough detail that it was convincing. I think that you could put something along the lines of the fact that you are close to the family and that a family member has raised concerns with you about abuse and warned you not to leave your child with them. That you don't feel that detailed information is your business to share but that you take the concerns seriously and so are passing them on to allow the parents to make an informed decision of their own.

Sorry - long post - but that's my advice for what it's worth. I hope that you're both ok - what a difficult sitution to be in - and best of luck for the future.

If you came to me with a half story I'm afraid I would make a big fuss. I'd remove my children, shout etc contact the police.

That's me. Dunno what they would do. But there's no bloody way I'd take the chance that she'd been inappropriate. I would not just say "oops".

I think you're kidding yourself if you think they may not do anything.

This is such a difficult situation, and my heart goes out to you. I don't have a lot to add to the good advice that you've had here, but I do want to say that counselling (or indeed what would be even better, proper regular psychotherapy) doesn't have to be extortionately expensive.

I was not earning much when I first saw a therapist, and she charged me only £10 a session until I got a better job. Many therapists will do this sort of thing, and I would think particularly in a case like this where the need is very obvious.

One other thought. Could you talk to his brother? But this doesn't have to be a full disclosure, could you just say that his mother is babysitting other boys and you're worried, should you be? He only has to say yes or no then.

I would say that the "boundary issues" that your husband knows of are enough for you to never leave your child with MIL.

i also think that the other family need to be told.

I hope that your husband can get help.

I don't think you should write a letter. It's close to criminal to do this without proof.

Call Childline or Parentline or speak to GP. if you try to deal with this on your own it may go horribly wrong. Sorry, but I think you will need to involve professional agencies.

I'm so sorry for this situation. I think you should speak to his brother, ask him directly if his lack of contact relates to her conduct with children and find some way to access counselling for your dh eventually. I would consider the alcoholic, negligent, sleeping tablet addicted lie to the people she babysits for and I would also drop it into conversation that she doesn't look after your children alone as you don't think she's up to it. Some members of my family have some borderline memories and have boxed it up as narcissism.

Op there are charities that specialise in this sort of counselling - pathways on Barnsley for example does non-time limited domestic abuse (inc historic and familial) even if you're nowhere near there they may be able to signpost you to other orgs.

You have to tell the other family something. Even if it's just 'we would never leave Ds with mil unsupervised. We have good reasons for this which were not willing to discuss but we feel you shouldn't leave your kids with her either'

And so what if mil throws a strop? Better that than any other outcome!

Also, is she really a 'nice person'? I don't think id allow her contact with my Ds at all. Again if your dh isn't ready say 'we've decided that you will not be doing any childcare for us. We have our reasons which we're not willing to discuss right now.' Yes it'll explode things potentially but the alternative is what?

Your dh has been minimising. He's under no obligation to confront her but you both must safeguard your child. If something happened to him and ss got involved and it turns out you were suspicious but did nothing he could be taken into care as you'd be judged as failing to protect him from harm. Worse case senario obvs but one you can avoid without your dh or you having to reveal anything personal as long as you're thick skinned and resolute.

This is totally appalling shit for both of you. You sound like fantastic people!!

Hi everyone thanks again for so many helpful posts! I'm going to see if DP will sit done and read through some properly with me in the next couple of days as I don't think he is currently, and I agree as someone suggested talking through what's been said here would be a good place to start.

In terms of 'professional navigation' - I have no faith at all in our local GP practice. They're pretty woeful at dealing with medical matters, so feel the soupy realms of buried memories and moral dilemmas will in all likelihood be totally beyond them. We're moving in a few weeks so perhaps the next surgery will be better, but I don't feel we should wait that long to do something about the other family. DP's own issues are hopefully less time-critical so perhaps the next GP could help with that. I'm not sure he will do anything though as I think he really does think he's 'dealt with it'.

And actually, to whoever asked whether MIL is really 'nice' - no, she isn't, lots of people think she is because she's friendly and bubbly, but actually regardless of whether sexual abuse happened DP has told me tales of his childhood that make my jaw drop. Both really major and relative minor things. Lying so he was over medicated, consistently buying clothes too big for him... She was an appalling mother, is incredibly selfish, and even giving her DS to hold makes my skin crawl . Unfortunately any discussion along those lines with DP just results in '...but I don't like your mother either. She does x/y/z..'

I know I 'should' be able to just put my foot down but it's never that simple. It's not an excuse, I know, but I had quite a controlling upbringing and find it very hard to assert myself if it's going to upset someone. Even if I'm clear in my own mind what's right and that they 'deserve' to be upset, I get all panicky. And I know this sounds pathetic but I actually just feel out of my depth with all this - I'm younger than DP and as I've been an 'extended' student, feel very lacking in life experience. DS has already been quite a shock to the system in the 'pitched unexpectedly head first into proper adulthood' stakes and I'm really struggling with dealing with this on top. I really do know that sounds pathetic, and I just need to man up and help DP.

I think you need to read Toxic Parents pretty soon, op

Also, about being plunged in beyond your depth - yes. This is one of the most difficult things anyone could be faced with and anyone struggles with it. You've had no training and no experience in dealing with something like this. It's very hard.

It can help sometimes to approach it as a pragmatic problem that needs solving. I think actually that you need to contact NAPAC yourself, explain the situation and talk about how to handle it. They must be very used to people who have discovered their partner was abused getting in contact. (I once contacted Childline myself to find out of there was anything I could do about a horrifying case of sexual abuse. I rang for practical advice about what I could do, but once they'd given me that they also gave me space to talk about how I was coping with having discovered what this man was doing and it really did help).

You've had some practical advice on this thread I hope it goes some way in helping you and your dh untangle a very difficult situation.
My gut instinct would be for your dh or even yourself (with dh bring involved) contact his brother and just say that you have some concerns with mil and given that he's said he would say something after she's passed away- is there any reason he would be worried about your son being left in her care.
I think the suggestions of talking to the other parents and just saying you have concerns about mil caring for your children- alcoholic, health problems whatever main thing would be that she wouldn't be looking after those children in the near future but personally I don't think you should tell them the full picture at this point in time.
Awful situation for your dh and yourself I hope you get some resolution in time

OP, I am so sorry you are in this situation - on so many levels.

Firstly, I think your DH's responses are 'normal' in many ways for survivors of abuse. It is unbelievably hard. FWIW, I don't think simple counselling is likely to be anywhere near as effective as psychotherapy with a specialist. This can be available for twelve months, free, on the NHS - via your GP in the first instance, but does require referral to a psychiatrist for assessment before he/she can refer on to therapy. This, in itself, is a deeply disturbing issue to deal with and highlights that a survivor has to be at a point where they want help more than they fear the consequences.
It sounds as though your DH is not at this point, yet, and no-one can hurry another into reaching that 'low'. Its a horrid place to be.
On the upside, if and when he is ready to examine an horrendous part of his life in minute detail (crying at every session for a year is far from unusual) then the potential for healing and ridding oneself of the demons that dictate views of life, cannot be understated.
It is life transforming - but only if you are ready to accept it.

That said, I think you have identified how you could move forward on the urgent issue.
You have said that DH remembers, and has shared, things from his childhood which appal you. Lying about over-medication is a dangerous action, without anything else.
You could talk to DH, and suggest you speak with the other parents to advise them that you do not (and will not allow) unsupervised access to your own child for these reasons. Nothing to do with sexual abuse - just the dreadful things which he does recall and come under the heading of abusive (but not sexually abusive).
This should hopefully allow him to feel OK about the conversation happening (a LOT of people have had toxic parents - even if colleagues did find out, having had a crap mother carries no stigma)
It should be sufficient grounds to warn off the other parents.

However I do think that, at the same time, you have to have that same conversation with your MIL. Do not raise the possible sexual abuse - the rest of the behaviours (remembered & detailed by DH) are enough. She cannot ever babysit because she used to do a) b) & c) with DH. You really don't need more.
Your poor DH needs to reach the point of dealing with the rest at his own pace..... anything else could be really damaging.

Sorry this was long.

Could you say to the other family that you do not leave your DC with MIL because you have unproven suspicions as to the reasons why DH's brother is NC with her?

I would respectfully disagree with not raising the spectre of sexual abuse along with the other stuff.

The other things are bad enough but could be minimized. It could seem a bit odd to the other parents and they could say 'but she isn't like that now". The chance of sexual abuse is one that normal people absolutely do not minimize or see as being something that is in the past and to be let go.

The other things could be mentioned and should be, but the sexual abuse is the one that is the crux of the matter.

But the survivor is not certain, and is not prepared to state it (even as a 'spectre') to the other parents? hence seeking another way forward.
I doubt there are many parents of young children who would not take the warning of historic dangerous parenting practices, and parental refusal to allow unsupervised access of a GC, extremely seriously.

The only other route I could think of would be for the OP to ask her BIL outright, and then advise the other parents on the grounds of that information alone.

The survivor is not certain, no, and that has to be taken into account. But there is enough that it looks highly suspicious and the survivor's partner thinks that yes, it probably did happen.

The mother has form for lying (over the meds) and mistreatment in matters big and small. She also seems very likeable, bubbly and friendly. I could see the parents of the little boys being torn and thinking that something odd is going on, but not quite being able to take the step of stopping the babysitter. Mention reasonably reliable sexual abuse though and that'd be a dealbreaker. I'm kind of extrapolating here though!

The second option you suggest, talking to the BIL and advising the other parents on the grounds of that, seems better.

I also think that if my children were beign babysat by someone with a question of sexual abuse hanging over them - I'd absolutely want to know!

If this was his dad, rather than his mother - would he be prepared to actually tell the parents and speak to his brother about it?

I'm presuming your in the UK, Relate may be able to help with counselling they don't just do couples counselling but counselling about any family issues.

My DM was abusive towards me since the age of 5 (when my father left). It is very hard to accept.

I have had counselling but the best thing for me is being totally NC. Would DH consider this? You say BIL is already NC so you can see it is possible.

If whatever MIL did was boundary busting then it doesn't really matter exactly what she did. If it has scarred DH then it is enough reason not to leave DC with her.

I would probably tell the parents as much as you/DH can bear and hope MIL goes NC with you.

Sorry to say I think that counselling and talking with Db needs to come first. You would be staggered to see how determined people are to deny that a friend or relative is guilty even when CSA is quite obviously a risk (I.e. there is a conviction). Making up other excuses will just play into the abusers hands as you will ultimately seem untrustworthy not her. Maybe I suggest talk to social services/ ofsted - if she is being paid that is not allowed? By all means a report needs to be made but get help for you first so it gets done right and not swept under the carpet.