when to know it's emotional abuse or just challenging behaviour

[whenthefatladysings]

I have never experienced emotional abuse. I often thought it was people who weren't tough enough, weak personality, argumentative, couldn't hold a discussion, didn't work and felt dependant on partner. etc.

I am a strong, independant woman. Always have been. In all my relationships I have had equal if not a bit of admiration as to how level headed, intelligent and organised, own income, sexual, humourous and capable I was. I'm not really, I'm just normal! I attracted men I felt who needed this strong woman in their life and underneath I didn't like it. I amit i realised I like a man who can challenge me and handle my sarcasm but all the while knowing he loved me for just being little old me. Underneath I'm actually a sweet romantic.
I finally met a man who I felt ticked many of these boxes. However he has had disfunctional relationships in the past and my strength I suppose has helped me help him in many ways. He has softened me alot and I realise I like who I am when I am with him.We believe we have a very good relationship, odd ups and downs but we make it work.
Today I realised I make it work. At least I think so. I'm trying not to be over emotional and sounding irrational or woe is me. I am looking for perspective and hope someone can help.
We have needed a bit of a break recently due to working alot. He owns a law practice 160 miles away so often we can only see each other at weekends. This has been for 3 years now. eventually we want to move nearer his practice. my son is still in primary and I want him to finish primary before i would move. that is for sure. I had booked a hotel for one night between where I live and where his practice/home is. I felt a night away for the 3 of us was something we needed. he gets on well with ds but ds is with his father alot when dp is around.
Myself and ds drive to the hotel and checked in. dp rang and told me he would be another hour and that he was exhausted from days work today with a particularly hard case he had. I told him to relax and just enjoy the idea of a swim, dinner when he arrived.
he rang me an hour later asking where he should park as there seemed two entrances. I directed him. However we soon realised he was at the wrong hotel. similar names but 20 miles apart. He flew off the handle and told me that he was exhausted and why had i picked that hotel. That i had given him the wrong name and it was all my fault he was in wrong hotel. I was adamant i told him, but in all his stress it must have confused him. I told him to stop shouting and to just travel to correct hotel. He said this was crazy and that the whole idea was ludicrous, spending the money on a hotel and literally a rant about everything and anything. foul language and aggressive tone.
i took a deep breath and said to him i'd see him when he arrived. I didn'twant to engage in an arguementand in particular in front of ds. When dp did arrive 30 minutes later he was still spitting. i decided to go down to the car to calm him. His voice was raised and i told him that everyone would hear him if he continued and that it was ruining the night. i understood he was tired but it wasn't my fault he got it wrong. he kept shouting at me , telling me that he wouldn't have got it wrong, it was all my fault andhe should have just turned around and gone home. why had i picked a hotel that was in the middle of the countryside, i must be stupid and he'll never go along with another night like it etc and more ridiculous excuses. I couldn't believe his attitude and behaviour. I blocked his path and said 'if you continue to behave like this, just leave, i do not want ds to see this and i do not want you to ruin a night away when we have so few'. he grumbled and barged past me. when he had a shower and came down to the bar he was fine. as if nothing had happened. he talked about his day and other things going on. I began to realise, life is just about him.
i looked around at other couples and families and realised that i have changed from the confident woman to the enabler. when we left the hotel the today (as he had to work) i realised i hated how everything he says and does effects my mood. I love him. but i justfeel so worn out. i tried so hard to make just one night go right and he had to ruin it. i didn't enjoy it at all. the abuse before hand ruined it. it was uncalled for.
i have doubted myself all evening, wondering am i over reacting, am i feeling sorry for myself for no reason at all. then i look at ds and think if he ever spoke to a woman like that/or another person, i'd be utterly dissapointed in how i brought him up.
if you asked in general how is dp well he's uptight these days with work, but surely that's no excuse to bring his stresses home. i don't!
i think i have to leave him.

No we are not 'together', as in he ended our marriage 8 weeks ago. Honestly, its a relief. He is now pissed off big time that I have presented him with a petition giving some tasty examples of his abuse. He now apparently doesn't want to divorce, wants me to agree to separate or he will cross-petition etc etc. But is in no hurry to leave the house. Can't bear that he's beginning to lose control of me. I'd just like him to fuck off so I don't have to share air with him. And can relax around my children and be the mum they deserve.

OP I totally agree with Poppy.....he ticks every box. Classic abuser behaviour. And sadly, from bitter and deeply traumatic experience I think there is a good chance it will escalate. So many of us seem to have been pulled in by Mr Perfect and then once we're hooked and committed, discover that he really is anything but. To the utter astonishment of the outside world as he charms and shmoozes his way around everyone else. And shock and horror of that moment of true realisation is crippling.

I'm reluctant to tell anyone to LTB (tho I guess I probably kinda did in a pp - sorry) because only we as individuals know how desperately hard that is. And all our circumstances are unique. Just be cautious that's all I would urge.

You are not alone - so many of us identify with you, understand and will try to help if we can.

Take care. Thinking of you x

Ideservemore - you may have been writing about me. Strong capable intelligent loving tolerant admired me. For 20 years I was married to a man who I found impossible to please. Nothing was good enough, god it was hard work. I spent my whole time trying to make him happy - and guess what - he spent the whole time trying to make him happy. In brief, ran me down, undermined me (in front of everyone including our 4 children) nit-picked - small small subtle little things, gradually alienated me from everyone I was close to, including family. I allowed myself to let him lead because that was what I wanted in a strong man, and my role models were my loving mother and strong father. Difference was, my dad truly adores my mum, shared money and shared everything whilst I never knew what my ex earned. What I earned was in the joint account whilst he still had a separate account 'for work'. Anyway, cutting to the chase, I picked up a book in the library one day called 'What to do when you cant do anything right'. After about 3 pages my eyes filled with tears. I was reading my own story. Could not believe ABSOLUTELY COULD NOT BELIEVE that I - suffragette feminist tough cookie - was a victim (that word didnt apply to me surely??? incredulously??? NOT ME!!????? ) of emotional abuse.
That was about 5 years ago and 2 years ago I said I wanted a divorce. Long difficult and sometimes incredibly lonely but Im out. Free. And wishing to God that i hadn't wasted twenty years of my life walking on eggshells and feeling so unloved and uncherished. Emotional abuse is such an insidious thing - like silent odourless poisoning til you wake up one day and realise that you're never happy. I would urge anyone to read that book - somewhere there was a check list of about 20 points that may indicate that you are in an emotionally abusive relationship - all little seemingly trivial things - I scored 17 out of 20. Don't underestimate your gut feeling. And as much as its tempting to act only from your heart - I will be urging my daughter to use her head as well when choosing a partner. (Sorry about poor grammar...its an emotional topic for me!)

Some things that have cropped up ; It's ALWAYS someone elses fault. He never apologised. Well he did once, but retracted it later LOL!
He could be the most sparkling witty and attractive person in the room but had no real self confidence - always thinking someone was trying to get one over him. Accused me of having affairs constantly. Funny - I must have thought this was quite exciting in the early years to have such a passionate and jealous husband. What was I thinking???

Insecure, felt the world owed him, and tough women like me have the strength to hang around and keep working at trying to make it work. Especially once we had 4 kids in tow....
God, the hoops I jumped through.... and no-one outside will have any idea whats going on because we get so good at putting on a smile and a bit of war-paint and being funny engaging company for our friends.
Its all about him - dont ever forget that.

Oh god Anita. That is my life. Every word of it. And more.

Am sitting here, tears steaming down my face. Tears of despair. Tears of desperate sadness for the life I tried and failed to give my children. But mostly tears of relief. I wouldn't ever wish what you or I have been through on anyone, but just knowing I'm not alone......

Thank you

Ideservemore - you will survive - get all the help and support you can - dont try and be brave and do it all yourself !! Call me!!! There is still that lovely funny brave kind person underneath all the layers of crap and with a bit of tlc you will find them again. You are so much stronger than you know - and if you have kids too then you will find the fortitude to rediscover yourself. I have 3 boys and 1 girl (all teenagers!!!) and i really didnt want any of them to think that my marriage was a prime example of how it worked. I have 3 friends all separated or divorced that have experienced much of the same .... DONT BLAME YOURSELF!!! This can happen to ANY woman, all these girls work, hold down responsible jobs, are loving mums to their kids and good strong friends. I have said many times that in some ways I wish he had given me a punch on the nose - cos at least then I would have known straight what sort of w..... he was - but the emotional thing is a whole different set up - sneaks up on you.... so anyway - read books, join support groups, re-engage with friends and family if you have found yourself gradually isolated from them... be kind to yourself. And in time you will feel less bitter - and more grateful for going through the crap that it takes to escape.. I have (frequently - yawn..) compared my divorce and moving home to the Shawshank Redemption (yes i know...) in that one has to be prepared to crawl through an awful lot of sh1t to find freedom and happiness. Im 48 - and I am grateful that I might have 20/30 years more living to do...and come what may i wont still be in the same situation in another 5/10/15 years time thinking - 'if only id been brave enough to leave him'...... xx

I am glad that this topic helped others, to vent, express and be proud of their strength.
I have read all replies and so many nerves hit.
One point, i don't think i chose weak men. I have had 4 serious relationships and found them witty, charming, carismatic,however when i look back they all revealed to be quite insecure in themselves underneath bar one. Because i had my own house and money i wasn't dependant on them and i suppose they didn't like that. Jealous yes, they would get needy and i would pacify them. And i agree at the beginning like what anita said, i saw it almost as passionate about me. But it was their insecurities.

To answer: no i hate yes men. i like someone to have good challenging coversations with me and in the early days i very much listened to him and realised i was wrong at times and took on board his opinions.

to answer another question: he got the wrong hotel because he didn't listen fully. He was too busy at the time worried about work , i remember the conversation and remember saying you sure you know the right one. he replied yeh yeh i do. i'm not stupid. it has similar name and similar sounding area tohe one he was in. however totally different, his was travel lodge style and mine had acres of land. i even remember saying it would be lovely to walk in the 'grounds.'

he wasn't listening. and to be honest lately i realised alot of the conversations were about him. i am not sure when he asked me how i was doing, or how was my day. the conversations would start with, god poor me i'm wrecked after today, or guess what happened to me. if i began to talk i would hear silence and say are you listening? yeh yeh go on. but i felt as if he only half interested/listening.
we are nc now. i rear he'll ring me tonite to want to talk. i don't want to pick up but i know that's rude and doesn't achieve anything. i would let him have his say if he had a light bulb moment but i know he won't . it would be turned on me thati'm over reacting and let's just get back to normal. it's all in my head. so i don'twant to talk to him. that saddens me , i see the man he could be and want him to be but he is determined to live in his negative/abusive world he is in now. nobody else matters but him and i just can't listen to anymore of it or try explain it to him.
I do miss the good though , the old him, and i'm very sad it didn't work.

i'm annoyed with myself for even wastingtime thinking and discussing him!!!

Thank you Whenthe for allowing us to share our experiences on your thread.

None of us can truly tell you with conviction what decision you should make as we all really only know our own truth. You will do what is right for you. If, now, the right thing is to stay, you'll stay until it is no longer the right thing and you have the courage and strength to make the bravest decision. If, now, the right thing is to go, you WILL be OK.

We're with you, whatever you decide.

thanks ideserve. yes no two situations are identical. but there is a somewhat format/behaviour pattern that runs through all of the responses here. so i know i'm not alone in it which in one way is a help and another sad to read.
today i'm finding nc hard. I'm finding that every ten mins he's in my head and I question things, i then flip to saying how much i did for him and how supportive i was and why has he got like this. Why couldn't he go back to the happier him. And every conversation in my head ends with the same. i don't want him to ring as i know the conversation will go the same. me explaining why i'm upset and can't continue and pointing out why and him taking no responsibilty or accountability for anything.
in all the time we have only had two days were we didn't contact. we were very much in contact morning noon and night. (albeit alot about him the last few weeks/months.)
I didn't want to mention this earlier as i felt it might draw people too much to an episode and didn't want that to be the highlight.
a few months back i was using his tablet and noticed he had a link to an online dating site. i confronted him and he laughed it off and said i had nothing to worry about. that he had felt lonely as i was busy some evenings with ds and that he just fancied a random chat. it was stupid and crazy. i told him if he wanted to go off and have his ego stroked then fine. to call it a day. it was not what he wanted. only wanted me and didn't exactly apologise, more said i was working myself up over nothing. I found it hard but let it go. I thought that he truly wasn't interested in meeting these women or having a real conversation off line and it was more a stupid 'have i still got it' mid life crisis.
I did at the time, do no contact and told him to have a think about it. he rang me two days later saying stop this you know it's you i want. I convinced myself i was the one.
so that does play on my mind too. but i do give people a chance as we all make mistakes, as long as we don't take it further or do same mistakes and see the error of our ways. i thought at that time he reflected on how life would be without me and it made me feel life without him and i didn't like it.
this time it's different. it's his behaviour towards me. i find that hurtful and sad because it's personal attack not warranted. i do not for one minute think there is OW. I'm sure about that. It's depression/exhaustiona and a large dollop of entitlement/selfish behaviour. That I cannot fix.
no contact since sunday and i hate it in one way, but i know i don't want to hear from him either. it would just be whining and blaming me and i can't take that anymore. but i'm just sad. i'm trying to get over it and it's so so hard.

Unfortunately, in the context of manipulative/persuasive people, 'we all make mistakes' and similar rationalising phrases are how you get into the situation where someone is hurling abuse at you in a car-park and you're still half wondering if it's all down to exhaustion and possibly worth another shot.

The infringements start small and graduate upwards. Let the small stuff go too often, accept the apologies etc and it can act as tacit permission to try something a little more offensive next time. Comes the day you're in a car-park getting the hairdryer treatment...

It is very tough to reject this pattern precisely because it is so gradual, there's a lot of nice stuff in between & because it so often looks like a one-off, out of character or stress-related. But it is a pattern.

you're right cognito well put! what's the hairdryer treatment?

It's a verbal blasting Whenthe - made famous by Alex Ferguson bollocking his footie team at half time that they 'must do better'!

i learn something new everyday!!
no calls/texts of apology or reflective thinking.i'm relieved in a way but i'm also sad. This is like when i gave up smoking.
you know it's bad for you , the first day or two it's hard but so enthusiastic about quitting and being strong. around the 2nd/3rd day you're wondering what do i do with your hands and wondering if it's going to be harder than you thought. everywhere you look people are smoking! You almost want to have a cigarette because you're feeling so bad about giving up!!! so warped but damn i feel like a cigarette right now.

Cogito you are so right. The perpetrators of this sort of behaviour want to keep you confused, keep muddying the waters so in the end you dont know if its you or him. In the end I doubted myself in so many ways, it was only that friends and family kept telling me that I was great that kept me from sinking into total depression.
The blame thing is a massive constant streak. I remember on a skiing holiday with the kids him standing on the side of a mountain blaming me for choosing the wrong ski run!!! I also heard from another 'frenemy' that he had befriended a school mum who had split from her partner and was having a hard time. He bought her flowers which he took to her house. Wow. I knew at that point it was over. This from a man that had accused me for years (wrongly) of having affairs with just about all my friends husbands... to a point i was wary of talking to any men at all in his presence. I made sure I concentrated on talking to the wives and girlfriends just not to give him any reason to start an arguement.
Its really just an impossible situation to win. Im so used to being able to fix things that I couldnt believe that i couldnt fix my own marriage. But in the end it was like trying to move the Himalayas with a teaspoon. And i had the choice to put the teaspoon down and just walk away.

Anita that really is sad and there is no doubt that being with someone like that does make you feel so downtrodden and exhausted.
Are you happy now? Do you ever think about him or miss him? Has he/you met anyone else?

I'm finding it really hard today. i have kept myself incredibly busy. but he's in the back of my head all the time. i found today my heart would start racing and the full realisation that it's over hits me on and off. I try to focus on something negative and it does help to make me pull myself together. But i can't help but miss him. the good him. the person that even tho he'd rant on, i have nobody to talk to. i don't want to talk to friends as if i do i will go around in circles and won't stop. I have to keep my chin up in work and to my ds. I don't want anyone to see me upset.
I know it was negative, but there was good. I miss that. I miss his kind voice. In all our long time together i have never gone more than 1-2 days not speaking. it's 4 now. that seems like nothing to some people but it's an extraordinary long without him. I wonder what he's doing. who's he talking to, has he got over me, is he even half as sad or angry about it all ending or does he feel remorse at all. I realised today too, that my own issues i have put on the back boiler because his problems were always easier for me to help him with. now i have to face mine full on. And alone. waterworks going again now...

What does it matter whether its "emotional abuse" or "just challenging behaviour". Its rotten behaviour and you know it. That is all. & he's had dysfunctional relationships in the past. I guess you can see why now, can't you? Most people have their good sides..its no excuse for the other side of them to be a monster. Yes, you will miss him. All the good things about him. But if back with him the bad will begin to cancel out the good. Is it worth putting up with "emotional abuse" or "just challenging behaviour" for the sake of a man?

As tough as it is, as gut-wrenching as it can be to miss a man, as horrible as the feeling is..sometimes we as women need to face up to the reality of what such men are, and put ourselves 1st. A man who cared for and respected you would NEVER have shouted and ranted at you like that. Would you dream of speaking to anybody like that? I bet you wouldn't, because you know its nasty and disrespectful.

I don't know if you're back with him but if you're not, sit on your hands to prevent yourself calling him or answering his calls, if you have to. When a person shows you who they are you MUST believe them, or you set yourself up for the inevitable verbal and emotional abuse to come.

Irritable due to workload indeed...my workload irritates me to death, I would NEVER dream of screaming at my partner, or even indeed anybody, in that way...yes, I bet he is stressed. & I just bet you are the only one he shouts at, too...everybody else will get his "good face"

yes mistressdee. I agree totally. I'm so used to making excuses for him that it pops out of my mouth before I can stop myself. but these last few days has made me realise I couldn't go on with the behaviour. I know that for sure.
I am sitting on hands. it's hard. i have deleted his number. even tho i know it i just didn't want it in the phone staring at me. psycologically it helps me delete him a bit more.
But the thing is I want him to acknowledge his behaviour. i know he won't. but i'd still have hope. even that would heal my heart. make me realise i didn't waste my time with someone i didn't know at all. Because underneath he is good. the bad has taken over and he doesn't care.
what if he does ring and has had time to reflect and is sorry and wants to improve and realises his mistakes and realises he wants to change.
If i don't pick up phone how will i ever know?
Mind you what am i doing worry about that when he hasn't and most likely won't. So stupid that I still have a tiny bit of faith in him. this is by far the hardest breakup. othertimes i just knew no meant no. but this, hard to explain. even tho he was bad, i know underneath there's good and that i miss and want back. i honestly can't imagine being with another man. i don't wantto be.

Because underneath he is good. the bad has taken over and he doesn't care.

No. He is bad underneath. He hid it under a facade of good.

He started giving you little glimpses after a while. You accepted the behaviour. Gradually he has revealed more and more of his true nature.

He is bad.

You want the fake him back.

If you did pick up the phone, he might put on the "good him" show for you.

That's no bloody use to you.

The man you have lost, never really existed, so you can't have him back.

i honestly can't imagine being with another man. i don't wantto be.
Being with no man for a while is OK you know. In fact probably a good idea after all of this.

Honestly, the man had a temper tantrum, is stressed, irritable and not happy with the relationship. Being pissed off and shouty in this context is not abusive, it's just immature. It turns out you don't like how poorly he handles stress and you don't want to have this in your life. That's fine. It doesn't have to be dressed up or justified, it's just a failing relationship. It's okay to just want to end things, it doesn't have to be that he's an abuser or you're strong and he's weak or he's showing you his bad, bad self. It's just... over. Or simply, you're just not that into him anymore.

sorry, duplon but you're wrong on this one.

The clue here is not the pissed off and shouty bit....it's the fact that he won't apologise, or accept that to yell at, swear at, insult, blame and verbally abuse someone is wrong on every possible level. He sincerely believes he's entitled to behave like that when he sees fit. The proof that he feels justified and entitled is in the part where, after a shower, he came down to the bar, had a drink and carried on normally.

His belief in his entitlement is the big, big Red Flag here.

duplon is right about one thing for sure: the relationship has failed, it is over.

Yes.. But in the context of a failing relationship, that might not be so much about entitlement and abusiveness as immaturity and unconsciously or consciously behaving badly to get dumped. I don't see emotional abuse here, I see a dead relationship. I think emotional abuse is trotted out too easily, given how grave and serious it really is. It's not just a bit of grumpy bad behaviour and selfishness, rudeness or emotional fuckwittery, it's underhand, sustained manipulation, undermining, gas lighting etc and has a violent, destructive intention at its core. I think they both know this is coming to the end and haven't really committed further to the relationship because it's just not that great a relationship. I just don't think we should be encouraging women to think they have to say they're being abused to feel okay about ending something that's not working. He sounds like a pain in the arse and she'll be well shot of him, it doesn't sound like OP really respects him very much anyway/views him as weak etc It just needs to end.

tis true duplo, there is a difference between a one-off temper tantrum and sustained, subtle controlling abuse. Something the op said though, in her first post (can't scroll back to see), indicated that it's not the first time she's had to "manage" his mood/s.

hoping all is well with you op.

Hmmm. Likewise, I hope all is well with you, whenthefatlady.

I'm not sure I agree with duplo; yes, there is certainly a difference between a temper tantrum and long term abuse. But in my experience (offered humbly) there are two issues here.

There is a planet of difference between a) what it feels like to deal with a spot of bad temper and grumpiness (my (non-abusive) ex was a grumpy bugger, but he grumped along in a general way, and didn't ever take it out on me ... he was just of that character (had been named Grumpy in his school play and nothing had ever really changed)); and then b) - being yelled at in such a way that you don't feel an equal person in the argument. If you are left taken aback, dumbfounded, not understand what the fuck is going on, unable to respond, belittled, made to feel anxious, not sure you're being heard - that's a different thing altogether.

A temper tantrum in the normal range of disagreement shouldn't really reach the stage of outright yelling - esp if it's just one person doing the yelling to another person taking it full in the face. I don't think this behaviour as articulated by the OP is just a bit of grumpy bad behaviour.

The second point is that I don't think all abuse is necessarily spiteful and deliberate; the link to "hoovering" recently expressed this well when it said that hoovering can be done by the abuser because they genuinely think that's the right thing to do; they don't even recognise themselves the patterns of abuse they're dumping on the head of their partners. They just think that's an ok way to behave. Holler; hoover. (Hoovering is when the abusee gets sucked up into a charm offensive after being put through hell). I'm sure my partner doesn;t do everything he does on purpose to control; he does it because he genuinely thinks that's an ok way to behave. The problem (for me) is that it isn't; and - crucially - it's still abusive behaviour. The OP's partner might not be doing this to control; but he's still behaving this way and having the same impact, so it's still as damaging, and unacceptable.

Hoping that makes sense. :)