"But we took you to stately homes!!!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

(New thread as previous one is full).

It's October 2014, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Happy Posting

Thank you Atilla. I am sorry to hear your FIL is so ill.

I was in care. My mother didn't want me but didn't want anyone else to have me either. If I was happy she caused problems so I had to be moved. If I wasn't happy she stayed away.

My children are 9-13 and I have three. Both sexes. The last few years have been horrible. The last few weeks have been dire. We have confiscated their phones, lap tops and ipods. That is our punishment/consequences as nothing else seems to work though tbh I am not sure this does. Maybe it takes time. DD is also not allowed to go to a friend's birthday party.

Today I told them Christmas would be cancelled if they carried on. I had thought nothing in their stockings from Father Christmas except vegetables and maybe one gift. DS1 then made a comment that I threaten if every year and never do it so I said fine, cancelled and you have to earn it back. Before I knew it DH was taking all the decorations down. The tree only went up yesterday . And still the kids aren't taking us seriously. DD gets it. DS1 keeps smirking and still shouting. DS2 is good/stroppy in equal parts.

I feel I am doing everything wrong. Our children don't respect us and don't behave. DS1 shouts at me and demands I tell him what he has done wrong. Often I can't bloody remember as there are so many things. I currently can't breathe properly with the stress and just want to end things. I love my children more than life but that isn't enough. I feel alone and I am sick of myself that I can't parent properly. I was an excellent nanny. Irony makes me sad.

I am awaiting a call from the police on an unrelated matter though that is not affecting my parenting as that was always crap even before I had dealings with the police.

Don't know what to do.

No one needs to reply. I just needed to get it out.

Itsfab, I don't think it's ever rude to ask for help when you need it.

Good, your post above has gotten me thinking that my DM may be a lot more narcissistic than I had thought. So much of that rings true. Food for thought.

And in response to your long ago question, I haven't gotten any help with the anger. I think mainly because when I think about telling someone what went on, I get angry again, and that seems to me to be counterproductive. Is it?

I also hear that you are really going through it Itsfab

I can recommend really tackling one, the one that the others would look to if they were to start sitting up and taking notice.

Also pick one battle to win completely and utterly, leaving them in no doubt of your boundaries.

An abusive relationship screwed up my rs with my DC, its has taken some years to start to turn things around. Much of it was so difficult because of how I was struggling with fears for myself, triggers, and terrible self-doubts.

You have been very brave to post on here, especially after it sounds like you've had such a rough ride in other parts.

Noone should judge someone so keen to make things right, and thats what I see, just someone wanting things to be better for their DC and thats all good.

We're all here for when you're ready. Take your time, and take care of you... the 'many things' thing, thats a tactic for DC, or can be, to dazzle you with so much you don't know which way is up, its true.

take care

I hope it was helpful HarimadSol. As regards anger, I think in the hands of a skilled therapist then it can be very productive to talk about and work through that anger, but it needs to be the right therapist.

sugarcoated - where do I start? I am sat here breaking my heart as I love them so much and I just know I am fucking everything up. DS1 feels got at. We used to be so close then DS2 came along and everything changed. It is just so hard and none of it comes naturally yet nannying did and I loved those children. I am just so tired. I keep expecting them to change and it isn't happening. We can't ignore the bad and praise the good as there is no good. Every meal time is horrible as they snipe at each other the whole time. DS1 and DD really don't like each other. DD really doesn't like DS2 either .

why is it they leave it until the last moment, a throw away line to ask about this shit?

I told him about the police visit, the door barging, the moving with no involvement/passing on of information, the bizarre cruel shit she did to ds with his birthday clothes.

I told him that my trust in the lot of them was broken and I was happier tbh on my own than with people who would treat others the way they all (and him too by definition) have and do treat me.... and would again in the future.

I said that i'd asked for an apology, but had none.

I said the i'm tentatively talking to dsis, as she had apologised, and we're taking things slowly. I said though that somehow the trust would never be there as it was, and i'll remain outside the family as I don't belong in it.

itsfab how much 1-2-1 tome does each one regularly get with you/dh?

divide and conquer them with kindness? what about giving them more responsibility/choice/say in the household?

like get them to input into meal planning, see if there are individual activities each one would like to do and allow them the space to do it.

i'm certianly no expert, but if total punishment doesn't work, a change of tactics is needed.

the other thing might be to hold a family meeting and explain to them that the family's not working and things need to change. consequences agreed by the family as a group?

failing that... call Supernanny? :)

it's odd, you both care so much, and that's usually enough.

this isn't you, it's the dynamic, and it won't last. it will stop one day.

I feel for you, I really do. ((hug)))

Harimad at some point it's a good idea to face that anger. It's an extremely awkward emotion, even worse than fear, but the great danger is that if you don't face it head on and allow it its place in your life, then it will subtly influence a very great deal including your interactions with other people. Handling it is really hard, facing it is so hard it's untrue sometimes, because the strength is so frightening.

But under most circumstances it's a thing that does need to be faced because when it runs like lava under the surface, it's usually more dangerous than when it's in the open. It also takes up a huge amount of energy to suppress. That energy can be used far more productively once you have faced the anger.

You may need some professional guidance to help you with it, or you may not.

---

itsfab we're listening.

Am struggling with our 6yo too. No answers .... just listening

Thanks Hissy. I'm a secret fan.

I have posted a goodbye as I need to sort things out but I might be weak cheeky and stay here for a bit . I just said to DS1 I want him to do two things. Stop shouting at me and stop being unkind to his sister. I said I would deal with her if she awful to him but he needs to set an example and start somewhere. Very little one to one with any of them except ds2 gets it mornings when everyone else has gone for 1.5 hours and half an hour in the car on the way home from school. We have less money than we used too so most weekends are spent in. DH has been poorly for a month and I am in a lot of pain so we just flake at weekends which doesn't help. We went to the cinema last weekend and the kids fought in the car while I went to get lunch . Best part of £40 and they can't get along.

Thanks Meerka. I should have been stricter when they were younger and been a better mother. I should have realised that love isn't enough.

It's so hard.

I'm afraid that I get a bit of professional support cause the teenage years did a lot of damage. Like you, the one thing more than anything else that I want to avoid is screwing up with them ... what we have been advised is consistency and to follow through what you say. I dunno. It doesn't seem to work with our 6yo. Not much seems to work atm :(

Itsfab I'm so sorry you have been having a really hard time. You have always come over as so lovely to me. You love your kids, you care about them, you are not doing everything wrong. Although it may feel like it you are not alone.

You sound like you have a lot of different stresses going on at the moment and that it just feels like it is too much. It will get better, please believe that. Try and look at things as an individual problem and try and work out the best way of dealing with each individual stress rather than thinking that everything is too much together.

All kids misbehave at times, most siblings fight and bicker. It can be really hard, sometimes all you want is peace and quiet, no dramas, no kicking off.

I don't know your kids or the nature of the problems, but when my kids have played up and driven me to distraction I have just tried talking to them, spending time with them individually and listening to them. Pick a good moment, not just after a row, ask what they think could improve things, listen to what they say, ask what things they think they have done that are good. It may take a while but keep talking and listening and you will get somewhere.

I hope you don't think I am speaking out of turn in making a suggestion, I am just saying what I would do. Please take care of yourself, you are a lovely person and you are a good mum.

x

Thank you Iwas. I just wish I had a few minutes to actually think straight but I don't get that and then when yet another meal time is a war zone I go 0-60 in a second.

Ds1 has just been upset by DD behaviour towards him. I suggested things had to change and said about being nice to someone they would be nice back and she said she didn't care what they were like with her. She doesn't seem to care what anyone thinks of her, keeps a lot in and is very hard to talk too at times as she has an answer for everything and just doesn't seem to care at all.

I have so many things flying threw my mind with what I need to do.

Itsfab is there anyone who could help you just have a bit of time to yourself this week even just for an hour or so. Could you try rewarding the kids for behaving at meal times, suggest the Christmas decorations could go back up if they don't squabble over dinner for the rest of the week or something similar.

I am sure your DD knows that she can talk to you, just keep gently encouraging her. Are you managing to get enough sleep? I have been sleeping better recently and I find it does help in dealing with all the stress and upset when you are not exhausted. Please take care. x

itsfab my love, you're not doing anything wrong, it's just that as the kids are getting older, the tactics need to change I think.

your dd is the middle child? the only girl?

start here. make 1-2-1 time with her a priority, talk to her and ask for her help. ask her if she's like to get more involved in what happens in the house, or what she does/doesn't do.

i'd also have the same conversation with DS1.

i'm not saying train her to be a housewife per se, as both of them will have their own goals/responsibilities, their own ambitions within the family.

if you ask your dd what kind of family does she want around her, what kinds of things are important to her and work with her to help her get them, I think she might come round. might take a while, but it's a logic approach, and gives some of the power back to her to effect change. was it always like this, or did she get more out of line after your youngest was born?

my instincts say she's feeling outnumbered and left out. middle child, only girl, stretched parents.

none of this is your fault, it's just something that needs a different approach.

I wonder if you could designate a day to each of the children and ask them to choose what they want for tea, help prepare it and serve to the family.

on that day the designated child gets to spend time with either mum or dad and do something they want to do while the other parent stays home or looks after the other 2. when ds2 goes to bed for example, the other child gets a bit of 1-2-1 time. when it's their day they get to choose (within reason naturally) what's done. set a budget if you need to and get them to research how they can get what they want within that. if they want to work and save pocket money to contribute to their designated day, that's good too.

I don't think that this is a matter of being firmer earlier in their lives, they sound as if it's just not the right approach for their personalities.

yes your DS1 should set an example, but my 9yo struggles with this and won't take crap from anyone. i'm kind of happy about this. :)

oh and you'renoig anywhere itsfab, you need us! stay! please? :)

how are they doing at school itsfab? helps to know if it' just at home they're acting like this or in school too. also what are there sleeping arrangements - re: shared rooms, own rooms, same bedtime, different ones etc.

Hi everyone

I am feeling strange today. I feel like taking the decorations down was mean but DH and I are desperate and at the end of our tethers. I said to him last night we need to stop being such rubbish parents. We need to stop assuming they are going to be naughty and stop shouting and swearing.

Was due to meet a friend but have cancelled. She parents differently and I just don't need anyone making me feel any worse than I do now.

I don't feel well today and feel out of it. Finished my period a few days ago and it could be related to that.

Just found Christmas wrap and tags in DS2's bin from where he has opened his siblings presents from him.

DD is the middle child and my only girl. We weren't able to have more children. My third was a twin and I lost the other baby and it wasn't safe to try for another so nothing I can do about it.

Whenever I try and talk to them about their behaviour the boys blame DD and DD says she gets told off and they don't. This isn't true but there will be times when I don't tell one of them off because I have had enough, I haven't seen or heard what happened. If I asked her what she wanted she would say for the boys not to be here .

It is the last 2-3 years that things have been horrible. DS1 and DD were awful until they went to separate schools. This September they all became pupils at different schools.

DS1 being horrible to DD started when he was getting bullied by a girl at school but we didn't know and of course, I might be wrong in blaming that.

All have had their moments at school though DD's have turned out to be wrongly accused/punished and both boys have been bullied. DS1 took it. DS2 metaphorically fights back so has been in bother too but his teacher this year is a million times better than last years NQT who had no clue and said something awful to me about DS2 in front of him . His new teacher is more experienced, is a mum, expects a lot of the children and has really helped him progress.

They used to be good for everything except me. Then they started playing up daddy then sometimes the in-laws but she is better with them though tbh we don't send all three at once now.

I have made a mince pie - a big one, put the washing on, washed up as the dishwasher is broken, I need to hoover and tidy and find time to eat before going to my volunteering job.

I wish I had a mum.

I have said goodbye on chat but tbh I think I will hang out with you if that is okay as I need a hug but do need to do more RL stuff and I spend too much time on here. It is a great resource but it has also made me trust my own judgement even less than I did before MN.

i don't mean to sound harsh and hope you won't take this the wrong but maybe trusting your judgement less can be a good thing if in fact your judgement has been leading you up the garden path.

if you reach a point where you go actually i think i'm probably getting this wrong and things have gone to shit then it's time to ask for help - not just from people online but in real life. have you contacted your local family or children's centre to ask about parenting classes? have you tried contacting Home Start or other similar charities? if all of the children and you are unhappy and having problems in their wider lives as well as at home now then it's time to get help.

there is no shame in acknowledging that you simply don't know how to get things on track so long as you follow that with action and reaching out for professional help.

our natural judgment is based on our own experiences, if you didn't have an experience of a functional family and role models to follow then you may need help learning that.

with the nannying how did those parents run their families? what rules did they have that you mapped onto as a template that made looking after their children easy?

if your judgement turns out to be poor (not entirely but in say knowing how to set boundaries that are reasonable and rational and have productive outcomes for example) then coming to doubt that judgement is a good thing, it just needs following with getting help to get your judgement on track.

They have a room each. Pretty much in a row. DS1 then DS2 in the middle and DD on the end.

i'm afraid 'hugs' won't be half as helpful as getting practical help and addressing the gaps in your experience.

I had instincts when I was a nanny and it just came naturally and easily. I had daft ideas when I had my own children and they got away with murder. Now they are 9-13 they don't respect us. run rings around us and generally make me feel crap. It isn't so much about trusting or not my judgement but the fear I have that I am fucking up their childhood and while it will never be as horrific as mine, it isn't great if they remember all this.

so get some help.

i'm sorry it's making you feel crap and i hope you can feel better but getting the help needed to get things on track and limit any further damage to the kids is the number one priority imo.

and they're not responsible for your feelings re: 'they make me feel crap'. they're kids. you're the grown up. you don't have to be perfect in any way shape or form but when you realise you're not coping you have to get help and put sorting things out at the top of priorities way above pride or your feelings imo.

it's being able to do that that will ensure we won't pass on the legacy of abuse or neglect.

I know you are trying to help HoneyBadger but you really aren't. You are making me feel even more inadequate.

I KNOW that I am a shit parent. Sometimes that happens when you don't have one and spend your life in the care system. But I love my children and I want to make things better. Kicking someone when they are down is really mean.

I think I am out. I don't need to be made to feel worse. I have already made changes when I got up and saw the children this morning but hey ho.