"But we took you to stately homes!!!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

(New thread as previous one is full).

It's October 2014, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Happy Posting

Worra
I totally get the feeling sad and having to think about why you did it (to remind yourself). That's exactly where I am.
It's both shit and totally right.

Worry, sorry, you have now an a not a y at the end of your name

Thank you caulk- you're forgiven for the a instead of y! It's good to know I'm not alone coz a lot of people in rl just don't get it. My dh is brilliant and tells how much his dp's love me, would do anything for me but i have to explain that it's not the same.

Yep, totally not the same, however great they are.

Its not 'like' a bereavement, its a full on bereavement and it takes time for the grieving to be over.

There was lots of anger for me too at all the lets down and ending up being without them, but it did bring instant peace (lack of drama) which was very well worth it, and the break is fully made and no going back to how it ever was for me before.

As one on the other side i can say it really was worth it, i found there really wasn't anything being gained by having the relationship that was positive.

My big worry is hurting them, especially as the s abuse has never been mentioned.

its not easy for you, but this is you making a change and thinking finally just about you, and that really is ok, even if its a very odd feeling, because you are not used to putting yourself and your feelings first.

You're not doing it to hurt them, but to protect yourself. Its really important that you know and keep knowing that this is not to feel guilty or bad about. This is a good thing for you, regardless of any noise they may make about it, and make sure you are ready to do it.

Its a good adult responsible thing for you to do for you

Thanks for "getting" it. What you've said make sense. It makes me feel so much less alone with it.

Found this, thought it might be of interest:

When a narcissistic mother wants the child to be a copy of herself, she wishes to use the child as a source of narcissistic supply. Perhaps there’s something she feels she wasn’t able to do in her youth that she expects you to do in yours, or maybe you’re blamed for stealing her life when you were born. Whatever the reason, she feels you “owe her” to be an extension of herself.

Children are naturally and innately dependent on their primary caregiver from birth and the narcissistic mother intends to keep the child dependent on her for as long as she possibly can in order to enjoy a sense of control throughout the child’s entire lifetime. Often, inheritance and financial favors are used by narcissistic parents to manipulate their children throughout their lifespan. The narcissistic mother expects her child to put her needs first, no matter how she treats you, your children or your significant other.

Having children is seen by narcissistic parents as the perfect answer to the desire to have a captive narcissistic supply. Unfortunately, the narcissistic parent often gets overwhelmed by the natural demands of a child. Parenthood intensifies the NP’s abusive behavior and the child may then be blamed for the narcissistic mother’s inadequacies or failures. Sadly, many ACONM’s are further betrayed by a father that enables the narcissistic mother’s abuse.

She yells at you? It’s your fault.
She hit you? You stressed her out.
She ignored you? You didn’t approach her in the right way.

But, you were an innocent child, not a “mini-me” of the narcissistic mother. A child is born perfectly imperfect, with the need to be protected, accepted, sheltered and nurtured. Answering these normal biological needs are seen by narcissistic parents as favors, not a precious duty, if given at all.

Narcissistic parents want their child to do what they want, how they want it and when they want it. Many readers of this blog have experienced an “engulfment-abandonment cycle” where the parent engulfs, through boundary-less or abusive behavior, then abandons the child when confronted or when something is more interesting to the parent than the child.

As children grow up and become independent beings away from their parents in order to one day make a life for themselves, select their own choices, and be functioning people in society, the narcissistic parent struggles to retain control. She will continue to force her child into whatever role provides her the most narcissistic supply, such as the blamed scapegoat, the forgotten lost, the falsely empowered golden, or the enmeshed and parentified child.

Because of being the same gender, daughters of narcissistic mothers are especially vulnerable to being seen by mom as a copy of herself. The narcissistic mother can therefore believe she may do as she pleases, physically and emotionally, when it comes to her daughter. She may expect her child to pursue the life partner she chooses. In this case, she wants the daughter’s significant other to be the most prestigious reflection of her genetic material’s potential.

Sons of narcissistic mothers aren’t immune to being objectified in similar ways by their narcissistic mother, but they may experience less blatant “copy of herself” behavior, like that of buying similar clothes, for instance. Often the narcissistic mom will see your partner alternately as competition or an ally to be manipulated against you. Your well meaning spouse may not understand they’ve a narcissistic mother-in-law and fall prey to her plea for help when you’ve set a boundary and your narcissistic parent is trying to get around it.

Children of narcissistic mothers can become enraged as mom refuses to see them as their own person and are therefore not treated as such. Conversely, the child of a narcissistic parent may not realize this is happening and thus continue to become completely enmeshed with the narcissistic parent.

There are different ways narcissistic mothers keep their child dependent on them to maintain this source of narcissistic supply. Below are two common tactics of the narcissistic parent.

Parentification: The narcissistic parent expects her child to take care of her when it should be the other way around. The child is made to feel responsible for the mother’s physical and emotional needs. These needs can range from an unfair share of cooking and cleaning to playing therapist while her mother talks about her relationships, sex life, and other issues. These are much bigger roles than any child should have to take on, but a narcissistic mother does not care. She only cares about her own wants and needs.

Infantilization: Never being allowed to explore her own autonomy, her child is kept vulnerable, naive, and scared of the world and being on his or her own. A narcissistic mother will brainwash her child into thinking the world is a cruel place in which one would never be able to survive on one’s own. This leads a child to never feel safe and fear leaving the support of the narcissistic mother, even though they may be miserable.

Both of these tactics, along with numerous other ploys, are how narcissistic mothers try to make their child into a clone, a copy of themselves for their own twisted satisfaction. If a child of a narcissistic parent tries to gain any sort of independence, it is met with rage and tactics meant to keep the child in her control, terrified of what the narcissistic mother might do if boundaries are enforced or even requested.

Children of narcissistic mothers keenly feel the trouble mom has in setting boundaries between the two of them. This can result in the child having psychological symptoms like “dissociating” in order to have a mental if not physical break from the narcissistic abuse.

Children of narcissistic parents can also convey their distress through physical symptoms, especially at a preverbal age. Unexplained physical symptoms such as stomach aches, headaches, and muscle twitches or spasms are common non-verbal expressions of anxiety.

Narcissistic enmeshment continues into the adulthood of the child. The narcissistic mother will try to intrude on personal relationships, marriage, and child rearing of her child’s kids. As a narcissistic mother-in-law, she will tell her child that his or her partner’s healthy desires for privacy or boundaries are abnormal or manipulative.

Even in death, the narcissistic parent can try to control their children, children’s children and spouses from the grave by using the assets of their will and their distribution as yet another way to pit the siblings against one another. Pitting people against one another in this way is a toxic narcissistic behavior called splitting.

Daughters of narcissistic mothers are shocked and saddened to catch their mothers lying directly to her own children or spouse. Narcissistic mom’s try to cause break ups and may try to seduce her daughter’s partner or spouse, doing whatever she can to get her daughter back to only having one person in her life: her narcissistic mother.

Sons of narcissistic mothers often are badgered by mom’s incessant desire to control their interactions with their own partners and can feel put in the middle between a mom “who means well” but is intrusive. The narcissistic mother “means well” only for herself. In the case of a narcissistic mother or mother-in-law this is, again, her inability to see her child as separate from herself. She tries to possess the child instead of support the child’s independence with love.

With an engulfing narcissistic mother, it can be very hard to get rid of her. It is important not to buy into her lies, intimidations, and manipulations. Don’t give in to her gaslighting or when she tries to tell you that you won’t be anything without her. Don’t be emotionally blackmailed by your narcissistic parent, your time is too precious.

Gain your own financial, physical, and emotional independence from her and do your best to enforce low contact or no contact (although, no contact is extremely difficult with these kinds of narcissistic mothers.) Involve the authorities if you need to or feel you’re in any danger. Protect yourself first. Set firm limits and be strong when enforcing them.

Our community is full of those who work hard to leave the old narcissistic family system. The battles an adult child of a narcissist, ACON, must fight in order to gain this hard won independence often costs time and tears. Both sons and daughters of narcissistic mothers deserve well earned peace and freedom

Wow. That is so so helpful.
Thank you.

Glad it's helpful, Caulk. I see a huge amount of my mum in it:

Often, inheritance and financial favors are used by narcissistic parents to manipulate their children throughout their lifespan. The narcissistic mother expects her child to put her needs first, no matter how she treats you, your children or your significant other.
Narcissistic parents want their child to do what they want, how they want it and when they want it. Many readers of this blog have experienced an “engulfment-abandonment cycle” where the parent engulfs, through boundary-less or abusive behavior, then abandons the child when confronted or when something is more interesting to the parent than the child.
As children grow up and become independent beings away from their parents in order to one day make a life for themselves, select their own choices, and be functioning people in society, the narcissistic parent struggles to retain control. She will continue to force her child into whatever role provides her the most narcissistic supply, such as the blamed scapegoat, the forgotten lost, the falsely empowered golden, or the enmeshed and parentified child.
She may expect her child to pursue the life partner she chooses. In this case, she wants the daughter’s significant other to be the most prestigious reflection of her genetic material’s potential.
Parentification: The narcissistic parent expects her child to take care of her when it should be the other way around. The child is made to feel responsible for the mother’s physical and emotional needs. These needs can range from an unfair share of cooking and cleaning to playing therapist while her mother talks about her relationships, sex life, and other issues. These are much bigger roles than any child should have to take on, but a narcissistic mother does not care. She only cares about her own wants and needs.
If a child of a narcissistic parent tries to gain any sort of independence, it is met with rage and tactics meant to keep the child in her control, terrified of what the narcissistic mother might do if boundaries are enforced or Narcissistic enmeshment continues into the adulthood of the child. The narcissistic mother will try to intrude on personal relationships, marriage, and child rearing of her child’s kids. Even in death, the narcissistic parent can try to control their children, children’s children and spouses from the grave by using the assets of their will and their distribution as yet another way to pit the siblings against one another. Pitting people against one another in this way is a toxic narcissistic behavior called splitting.

Seeing it written down I'm not surprised my therapist said he was fairly sure she had NPD.

hoovering time here

the 'i just knew it was coming' letter hand delivered through the door has come. the poor us we're facing another christmas not being able to buy our grandson presents, we have no idea why you've done this and you are the only one who can change it, why won't you just put whatever it is behind you and forget it so we can go back to normal, we can do nothing, this is all down to you etc letter.

i found myself wondering if i should write an explanation BUT i know absolutely it is pointless - the denial and their version of reality (built on lies, denial and projection) makes it utterly pointless. i've spent a lifetime wasting energy trying to get through that madness.

they can be nothing but victims, never take any responsibility or reflect on their own behaviour or question themselves in any way. so it all has to be projected on me.

i don't want to write an explanation - they are incapable of 'hearing' it and i'm past trying to get through to them and trying to hope there is some way through the madness to a fair, realistic appraisal of reality.

so i guess i just have to ignore again.

for those who're thinking 'you shouldn't have opened it' the trouble is with them living just down the road i feel i have to read it in case it says we will be turning up tomorrow with ds's presents or some such you know? it has said things like that before and has enabled me to be out or to be busy upstairs with ds where he won't hear the door or i can say oh it' just a salesperson or whatever. i need to be forewarned.

it is SO hard even now to read the level of conviction they have to their own victimhood. i say 'they' but of course the letter is from my father and full of 'we' statements. no way anything would come from her. it reminds me of childhood with him speaking for her and thinking that sufficed eg. 'well you know she does love you really', 'she's just like x, y and z', 'she doesn't mean it' etc. err no she doesn't love me, she does mean it and i know exactly what she's like thanks.

but it made my head go off on an internal discussion with her again - grr. justifying myself, arguing against the monstrous things she's said about me etc.

i have caught it quick though and will tell the internal version of her to fuck the fuck off. the no contact in the head is at least as important as the real life stuff imo.

HB I've posted on here a few times and read your story. Huge sympathies - I understand exactly where you are. Of course the right answer is not to reply, but it's so hard. The anger and frustration you feel, amongst a myriad of other feelings, have to vented somewhere and you can't vent at them because its fruitless.

It then gets stuck in your head, on repeat.

I find myself arguing with my my DM in my head a lot at the moment, after a recent spat where I am perceived to have 'turned on her'.
I was able to chat with my DB yest and that helped. The other thing to do - and I'm sure you already know this- is to write that letter - sound off as much as you need, get it all out. But don't post it. I'm at this stage.
to you xxxx

thanks for replying

there's nothing even to get out really fuzzy tbh. 'i am no longer willing to expose my son or myself to your toxic madness. the way you talk, behave, treat each other and your children and the things you believe and the way that you see the world are everything i'm opposed to and everything that makes me sick. the end.

there's nothing to say realistically. they have never done anything wrong in their minds and i'm a mentalist/fantasist/the devil's daughter/whatever.

there is no win, no resolution, no way forward. there is only me drawing a line and deciding i don't want them anywhere near us anymore.

one thing you really do have to accept and get through with the NC approach is that they will frame themselves as victims, they won't think through their side of things, they will slag you off and rewrite reality to make you to blame for everything or to have cut contact for absolutely no reason. etc.

you hand them all of that and let go and never ever again bother to try and defend yourself or have your side of the story heard. they win in that sense in their mad world.

you aren't part of that mad world anymore and have to cease to care what goes on in it because you are not a part of it anymore.

you accept they'll believe whatever they want to believe, they'll tell people whatever they want to, they'll write you out of the will, they'll sell themselves as victims etc etc etc. whatever crazy game it was they were trying to win you walk away from and hand them the crown as in here, have it.

your prize is simply not having to have those people in your life anymore.

super post, honey.

Ds birthday today.

have my DF coming to drop off presents... from him, my sister, and I strongly suspect DM.

got a text from DM this afternoon.

I saw red.

"I thought I made myself perfectly clear the last time, but apparently not. Don't contact either one of us again. Have you forgotten his terrified little face while you and your vile husband shouted insults and threatened us in my house? Barging through our kitchen door? Forcing me to call the police on you both to get you to leave my home? WE HAVEN'T. you can't apologise, not even when you had the perfect chance to do so, or even when I actually invited you to. For the sake of clarity and for any future criminal action required, I am advising you that I wish no further contact with you or any of your 'representatives'."

Wow Hissy, well done.

Now breathe.

You are amazing.

she didn't send me a happy birthday message 6m ago... so why would she send one to ds?

perhaps because I have an issue with her and DS doesn't?

hmm well, I remember when we were holed up upstairs waiting for the police and he was crying and saying he just wished they'd die... and how he didn't understand why they were being like this.

insult me, insult my family (of 2) insult/hurt my son, then it's me that'll take up the fight.

she blocked me AND my ds from her move. she terrorised my son, and allowed her H to do the same... why does she assume it's ok to carry on and contact him through me?

if she could have apologised, it could have been different (too late now). but she won't because she's sone nothing wrong. apparently. I do wonder if she's ever likely to spill the truth to someone and see their face of abject horror at whah she really has done.

I am going to have to have a proper word with my aunty to explain my position. I wonder if i'll have to say the same to my DF... but the he doesn't care about anyone except himself either, so deaf ears and all that. I genuinely don't know why my dm and df split up, they're so alike...

great. df comes over all goes well until he goes to leave...

'have you made it up with your mother yet'

:(

why is it down to me to 'bury the hatchet'?

sorry hissy. this forced contact and total bloody entitlement to do so is so sickening. stay strong. we don't need psychos like this in our life and we have every right to keep them away from us and our children

Hi everyone

Atilla, I recognise you name. I really need a safe place to talk and feel teary that I might have found it. I struggle to keep up with the SH threads so haven't posted or read any for a long time. I hope that doesn't make me rude when I just barge in to ask for help. If this isn't the place for my troubles, please tell me where. I did have a shit childhood but it is my children I am struggling with (and of course my childhood is probably why) and today has been a huge upset and I don't know what to do as every time I post I get criticised. I know I am fucking up. Why not just help instead of criticising?

Itsfab,

Welcome.

No-one will at all criticise you here on this part of this site. Infact on a personal level this particular part of the board feels to me like the safest and only place I can write about dysfunctional FIL who is terminally ill.

Take your time and write when you feel ready and able to.

Hissy

Well done re confronting, that certainly took some doing.

I would now consider getting legal advice from a Solicitor as to their ongoing harassment of you.