"But we took you to stately homes!!!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

(New thread as previous one is full).

It's October 2014, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Happy Posting

HissyThank you for your responce, i do get moments (i think i have my dads quick temper) and want to tell them to ftfo and eff off some more.

GoodtobetterI've never heard of FOG till you and Attila mentioned it, im currently researching it.
I've been mulling things over with the husband today and i cant remember (even happy memories) being worried something will go tits up, i'vebeen with my husband since i was 17 (now 25) and go straight back into my shut down mode if i sense hes in a mood, or upset.

I would love to get rid of this and be carefree. I have ordered Toxic Parents - such a good title, I'm hoping it'll come in the post asap. I'm also hoping to get in touch with a therapist.

Attila Thank you for the virtual tissue and cuppa. It's bizarre that everyone on here gets me, esp with the sorry. Sorry is secondnature to me, im terrified of upsetting people.

BUT i want to move on, get better learn how to process these feelings and not just rant at you lovely people or my hubby.I'm going to look at BACP and talking therapies.

Tonight i've switched my phone off (although mothers sent me two texts today -shes upset!) I've not replied and i know im going to have many voicemails/texts tomorrow but tomorrow is going to be the start of moving on. I need to.

A massive thank you for understanding, and giving me so much advice. I wish i came here sooner.

Dawntigga Thank you, really thank you. I cant believe how many people understand and dont think im being mellow dramatic or OTT.
Its gave me so much hope and strength, i need to accept and move on for myself and for the future little ones. I love your polar opposite i suppose our parents are a blueprint for life? (ie throw the blue print out!)

Meerka Im speechless, until this morning i thought my childhood was something of the norm (hubby having one of those tv/magazine childhoods although he told me time and time again it was not). I'm certainly going to try BACP and if you can recommend any therapists thay'd be wonderful. :) Im not going to say anything it is hard though esp in her nice, loving,
moods when i can (slightly) relax and think this is how it should be all the time.

HarimadSol i love your list, i think i might write one.

TheHoneyBadger - it was the same here the atmosphere you could cut with a knife. My pop went apeshite when i hung the washing
out'wrong', i soon learnt they needed to be in an impossible order and just hope for the best. I love my Inlaws, the mess,the homelyness. I dont feel so alone on this thread knowing people are/have been in the same gawd awful boat.

P.s I'm currently on the BACP Find a Therapist what would my reason for therapy be? I feel like abuse is a too strong word! Why don't they have meanness?

It's emotional abuse. Long ago (Over 2 years ago) I started a thread about my mum and her treatment of me/my DH. People said to me then that it was emotional abuse and I couldn't see it, but the enmeshing of our lives, turning me into a mini adult, making me responsible for her happiness and moods, it's all dysfunction and a kind of emotional abuse.

Mine (not in the UK) is a psychotherapist, specialisng in mindfulness. You might find the first one you try you don't "fit" with. It needs to be someone who "gets" you and can support you on your journey, not someone who wants to fix your family dynamic. The first one I saw was nice and v qualified but didn't really seem to get quite how bad for my mental health my mother is. She seemed to think I wanted help fixing our relationship, when I'd told her I wanted to manage her and reduce contact.
I changed therapists.

It was abuse, elley.

Don't doubt it. Any professional will tell you so.

What I was going to pm and life is a bit busy atm so I hadn't, was try to get in contact with the Tavistock Clinic in London. They may be able to help with advice for finding therapists who have experience of dealing with people with severe abuse (not quite sure they will give detailed advice, but I hope so). If they will recommend someone, it's very well worth listening to.

The dramatic stuff like (in my case) hands round throat, climbing over tables to get away from her brandishing a knife, shaking ladders when someone is at the top of them - that's immediate adrenaline scary stuff but the more subtle stuff is more damaging imo. The putting down, the shouting, the twisting of stuff to blame you, that actually does more damage to the psyche I reckon. ( Isn't it nice to be able to compare the two types of abuse from the outside )

So what I'm trying to say is that you most definitely experienced misuse in both the Dramatic and Undramatic category so yes, you need a therapist experienced in abuse. And even then a very good one.

It was physical abuse too.

Some of you will know my story. Basically I've been NC with toxic mother for just over 2 years, bar 6 weeks last year when a family member was sick.

She 'stole' my DS when he was 16, nothing I could do, he wouldn't come back. He'd left school & was at college. He's 19 now.

For the last 3 months, every time we've arranged a day out or to meet up, he cancels.
I've had a message today in the early hours saying he has to cancel. I know it's drugs. I know it.
I also know he's responsible for his own actions. So why do I want to text the toxic old cow & tell her that she's played a big part in this & how much I despise her?

She allowed drug use at her house for years while little kids were there. We stopped going when she thought it was ok for dsis & dbro to do it in front of our 2.

Ah crap Pippin he'll find his way out of it. He has you to look to when he finally comes to it, a mother who's an addict is hard, I have no idea how hard it is for you as a parent of one. He IS responsible for his own actions, it's hard though.

ThinkingGoodThoughtsToAllTiggaxx

Pippin sorry to hear this, what an awful situation.

I think you know that it's best to keep your text finger still. She will do nothing but turn it against you and while your son is still under her influence that's giving her ammunition.

I hope he comes out of this and sees her for what she is.

I agree, Pippin, don't text, she'll use it against you. I know it's hard though.

Little whinge alert:
Not looking forward to hosting the PILs on Xmas Eve. They're very nice and kind but annoying in the way 80 year old, set in their ways people are. I just can't be bothered.

Tradition here is a big meal on the night of Xmas Eve. Until now we've done it at PILS at lunchtime as they lived a car journey away it was easier with little kids. Now they're living in the same village we've said we can do evening and we'll host to save MIL cooking and also to give us control over food as last year she bought pre prepped stuff and it was gross (they liked it), but DH thinks it should be at about 930pm. I've said no way. I know it's not late by Spanish standards but the kids are normally in bed before then and DS especially will just lose the plot with tiredness, excitement, etc (6 years old) if up that late. So I've got DH to agree we eat at 8pm so if the kids are knackered they get to bed by about 9.

He's agreed but I feel a bit like the weird foreigner spoilsport. He said "it's only once a year" which is true, but imo it's not worth the hassle and then DS will be mental the next day (Christmas Day) which is "my" day.
Not to mention that tbh honest I'd rather eat beans on toast and watch the telly on Xmas Eve (which i can't as Xmas Eve here is like Xmas Day in the UK) than bother with any of it tbh this year.

Sometimes I hate being a bicultural family.

Spoilt brat rant over. You're the only people I can tell ;)

Eating at 9 or even 10pm would be the norm for the Xmas Eve meal here, but apart from the kids issue, I don't even want to sit down to a great big meal at that time.

TRIGGER WARNING ! :( Abuse...

I am wanting to vent a bit and seek some advice and help about my situation. I have had therapy twice but never really had the guts to tell them everything I feel.

It kind of kicks off when my parents divorced, my mum had a nervous breakdown and I ended up in care. My dad is V controlling and whilst he never hit me to my memory rumour has it my mum reported him to social services for abusing us both. I can't remember anything really, except being neglected of basics like food, clothes, and getting to GP's when I needed it. Fast forward through being in care because my dad also got caught drug dealing and my mum got admitted to mental hospital long term, and my brother (3 years older than me) began abusing me, he was ten at the time. It started off with sexual stuff and it progressed to hitting me, punching me and strangling me, which became a daily ritual of his, I was a latch key kid and when my mum went to work at six am my brother would rock up in my room. Emotional abuse too, threatening to kill me, holding a knife against me, broken glass. This went on throughout my teenage years until he was about 18 and left home. Mum was blissfully unaware, because anytime I talked to her about anything, she had an anxiety attack. Dad was too wrapped up in his own life and girlfriends to really show any care whatsoever, often choosing to buy drugs over feeding us.

I left home at sixteen, fought long and hard to be totally independent and fought my way to the top (yay) now managing a therapy charity (woohoo) but not doing the therapy :( I have a five year old. I have active relationships with ALL my family despite all this stuff and my dad has gone on to be very emotionally abusive since. I have this massive sense of duty toward my family but I hate it and I want to walk away but would feel really guilty as I feel they won't be able to get on without me. Despite all this I have been the matriarch of my family since I was a kid, taking care of my family and watching out for them, even if rarely it has been reciprocated and when any favours are reciprocated, for example my mum doesDS childcare, she charges me normal Childminder rates. My brother has still never done anything for me and has daughter of his own now I don't know whether to be afraid for her or supportive. I currently do car runs of 140 miles round trip to pick up his daughter.

I am trying to work through my life but I keep finding all of my life comes unstuck because of issues with trust because of my family. Has anyone got any distancing ideas, or any ideas for how I deal with it all and put it behind me. Its been extra hardbecause I find myself attracted to controlling men (who have sometimes abused me). I hate that I have no ability to judge a character and cant see them coming a mile off, my friends can. I am an intelligent woman yet I get caught in this cycle again and again. I feel so trapped. Please help me.

workingmamma I think that you have an awful lot to unpick here. Most of all, you actually have an awful lot of actions you need to take to get yourself into a better position. You said you haven't been to therapy. May I ask why not?

Hope you're okay this morning, working

Hi all, it's been a while since I posted, not sure if anyone really remembers me but I've posted previously about DM with very subtle narc tendencies and generally my confusion over the whole thing. I fully accept I'm totally swimming in FOG but generally things have been calm for the past 6 months so we've all just been trundling along.... But I can feel my brow furrowing and I'm getting "confused" about how I should feel again so wanted to post. I can predict what you (meerka, atilla) will prob say but just needed to come here as I know you all "get it".

Anyway...... DM had a hosp appt today that she was worried about. We spoke last night and she'd said she was anxious about it, it was reminding her of cancer diagnosis etc etc and would ring me straight after to let me know how it goes. Scan was at lunchtime, I'd texted to say good luck and then again at about 4pm to see how it went. I was then getting twitchy convinced it was bad news as surely she would've called/texted otherwise. I asked my brother if he'd heard from her and he said no but he'd ring her. DM then rang and said she'd heard from DBro that I was worried - she'd spent the afternoon with a friend and faffing about with her computer. No results etc from hospital, and they weren't expected today anyway, and seemed more inconvenienced by the whole thing than worried.

So now I feel confused - and a bit cross. It was all "I'm sure I'm fine and it's really nothing to worry about..... But it's reminiscent of my cancer diagnosis, I'll keep you posted" yesterday and today she doesn't even think to ring!? And when she did it was 6:45pm which she KNOWS is when I'm putting the children to bed.

I dunno. I feel a bit heartless saying all this as she's clearly fed up and feeling poorly and not herself etc etc but to not ring all day after the "I'm putting on a brave face but really I'm scared but don't worry" call last night? I was in tears to DH last night saying what a shit daughter I've been and was really worried/stressed/distracted all day today. Maybe she didn't get my texts? Maybe she forgot that she made a doom and gloom fuss and promised to ring me today?

I've got a lot on this week (which DM knows) and I'm DD2 is up loads in the night so I'm busy and tired.

Am I being paranoid/bitchy to think she's timed this bit of drama to coincide with the busiest week of my year.

I get random emails and texts telling me how poorly she feels (without me sending an initial How Are You? message) but then nothing after her appointment despite telling me she'd keep me posted. Is it me making a fuss of this or is it her? I'm genuinely confused.

Christmas does seem to trigger the difficult side of DM so maybe that's just it. She seems to struggle with this time of year so perhaps needs the extra attention.

Do I need to be kinder or should I feel rankled that she's creating a bit of drama just when I don't need it?

rankled, kind. Kind, rankled ... does she have a pattern for coming up with seriously worrying news around the time of busy / important things?

look at the -pattern-.

Perhaps the best way is to be between kind and rankled. Something here has tipped you off that this isn't necessarily coincidence. If it's not then it's damn annoying.

Might the time come when you become immune to the health scares, if they are a pattern? (I know I did in the end, but my mother did not bring me up so I was not as vulnerable to the guilt trips. Well, at first they worked massively. But as soon as I realised what was up, it was easy to let them slide off my back).

You can be kind by expressing interest and concern without actually getting too upset. "detached with love"

I hope it doesn't spoil christmas.

Thanks, I am genuinely concerned but just a bit at the fact that she wanted me to know she was anxious about today's appointment (she texted yesterday to tell me they wanted to see her again and that she felt nervous about it) yet left me hanging?

I guess I'm trying to understand her more when quite simply I can't. Why would you say to your daughter "this feels like cancer again" and then not be in touch, when you said you would, after the tests?

Maybe she felt dramatic yesterday and didn't today and there's nothing more to it. Maybe she's just under the weather and not really able to think about the impact of what she's saying. Maybe I'm overthinking it all.

Head hurts from going round in circles.

I had this with my biol. mother a bit.

Met her at 18. My own beloved adoptive mother died when I was 11 ... I still miss her and Im 45. At 18 it was even more painful.

Biol. mother one day said on the phone a few weeks after a minor-but-full-anaesthetic operatoin in a casual tone "oh I nearly died on the operating table".

It sent me into a flat spin ... to loose my adoptive mother was the worst experience of my life and I've seen a few nasty things.

Then she went on blithly talking about How Her Husband Was Doing Her Wrong (her favourite topic, really).

You said "this feels like cancer again" .. has she had it before?

I think that self-obsessed people forget the impact of what they are saying. Being really ill gets you attention. Less self-obsessed people, the help and attention is appreciated but it's far from the main focus, their focus is on getting well. With self centred people, the attention itself is the wonderful thing and they do not realise the impact of what they are saying on the other people who love them.

If this is a regular thing, actually I think the best thing you can do is actually to face the fact that one day, she will die. Allow yourself to face that and to be upset and to grieve a little in advance. It sounds strange, but actually accepting her mortality can allow you to love the good things about her and also to accept what comes, either genuine illness or dramatic stuff, more easily without getting thrown heavily off balance. You need to be able to keep steady when you're dealing with

Alternatively, if this is a pattern of behaviour over time you will get used to your mother having health scares.

If it helps at all, with my biol. mother in the end I just let her get on with her "nearly died" cycles without swinging into battle stations each time. Took another 20 years to actually shuffle off her mortal coil; by the end I was immune to it all.

Can I suggest trying to go to the gym or a brisk walk or swimming or something physical to help get it out? It can help.

errrr ... "you need to be able to keep steady when you're dealing with a family and christmas and maybe working too" sorry!

I hope you're okay, it's hard to post sometimes. Hope the advice wasn't a bit too full-on

"Do I need to be kinder or should I feel rankled that she's creating a bit of drama just when I don't need it?"

I would feel rankled. It is your mother than needs to be kinder but as she is a narcissist that won't be happening.

Your mother is creating a bit of drama when you do not need it and I daresay she never intended to phone you with a test result. This is and has been all about her. She made her appointment out to be a lot more important than it actually was; its again all about her and getting attention from the hospital.

She has trained you well I am so sorry to say; she has you well conditioned to jump when she wants you to. You really do need to raise your own boundaries again.

No no, all good advice thank you.

She definitely didn't register/care/think about the impact of what she was saying.

She had breast cancer about 15 years ago.

I can recall her own mother having illness after illness and the doctors saying she was perhaps a hypercondriac..... I hope DM doesn't go the same way, she's been "under par" in and off for about 2 years now.

I just feel so wary of her getting needy, it's v draining and I get paranoid/anxious, as until she's "normal" again I feel a bit like I'm walking on eggshells and she could cause upset, or accuse people of upsetting her, at any time. Gah.

Must focus on just my little family. Must focus on just my little family. Must focus on just my little family.

Workingmama . I don't know how you cope still seeing your family after all the hell theyve put you through. Sorry I have no ral advice I'm a beginner

Well after All the texts and tremulous messages sent by df and being ignored by me, db texted me to say df in hospital with breathing difficulties. Really? I ignored it for a while, ended up being an asthma attack. Didn't know he suffered from it.

I e also got an Xmas card that I haven't opened. Can't face it. Part of me feels mean. Tell me I'm doing the right thing! Spoke with dm last night and we spoke about df and his abuse. She said she didn't realise how bad it was until she'd left him. Then realised how life could be.

dirty if you can't face it, there's a reason.

Your feelings are OK. They are there, in situations like this, to protect you. Listen to them.

You don't have to open it. You're entitled not to open it. Don't.

Have a chat with someone who truly likes you, go and do something you enjoy, put the card on one side or ask someone you trust to open it and tell you "it's not worth bothering with" or "yeah, you might as well read it". But concentrate on nice things that you enjoy tonight and the next few days, til the sting has gone out of it being sent.

Thanks meerka. I have actually put it in the recycling and bin is on pavement ready for tomorrow's collection. It's one of those bloody moon pig ones. Why does the fact he does moon pig annoy me so much?

the bliss of being expat, I don't know moonpig! is it somethign particularly nice?