"But we took you to stately homes!!!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

(New thread as previous one is full).

It's October 2014, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Happy Posting

holdthepage i'm angry at your father. how dare he sentence you to a life like this? he flaming well enabled her!

if she can call you, she can call the maintenance people to come and fix the ch system.

she's clearly told your B a pack of bullshit, and he's using it to get at you and she's just sitting back revelling in the fact that you're getting a kicking again.

if she calls you again, tell her to call whatever she needs to call, or get db to do it, seeing as she's so happy to tell him a pack of lies.

I want you to post here the next time she asks you to sort out anything. do not agree to a thing. get her off the phone and say you'll get back to her if need be, but don't.

perhaps your db is like this with him dm because he sees her for what she is...

either way, these people are strangling your life and shouldn't be allowed to remain in it.

Welcome Elleybear nobody here will minimise what you went through (and it does sound, awful; a scary, abusive childhood), I think you are deeply enmeshed in FOG Fear, Obligation and Guilt, quite typical I think for a child who has been forced into an adult role. I'd recommend reading the resources at the beginning of the page, especially the Toxic Parents book.
I think, as others say that the fact that you are worried about turning into them means you are unlikely to as you have that awareness, but I would strongly recommend reducing your contact with them down to a minimum NOW as they are clearly not the kind of people you would want around any children you may have. If you do it gradually now you don't even need to have a big showdown, just gradually introduce a routine that includes less and less contact, be busy more often, take longer and longer to respond to calls/messages.

Dirtypaws: I didn't really have a father either as he was a raging alcoholic, they divorced and I didn't see him for years in my teens. I wouldn't say I miss it really, there have been other father figures in my life. It makes me sad sometimes to wonder what he would have been like minus the alcohol, but it's not something that bothers me, as I said to my therapist, although on paper he should be the parent that fucked me up more, actually it's fine. I've come to terms with it and it's not an issue, never has been really. I never had it, I don't miss it.

As regards complicated grief, that's what my therpaist called NC and difficult parents. It's like a death, like mouring but they aren't dead and it's all bound up with FOG as well. You're relieved to be NC but also totally crushed at the same time by the loss of what should have been. I feel that even though I stopped speaking to her, the fact that my mother then took it upon herself to fucking emigrate without telling me or saying goodbye complicates it further as it adds a level of abandonment to the grief, FOG, loss combo. Trying really hard to see it as freedom not abandonment, but don't always manage it.

Muminboots did you get the therapists details in a PM? How are you getting on?

My therapist has set homework this week. I have to write a letter to Dm. Not send it, but write it as a cathartic exercise in "using my voice" as we've been working on the Freedom/Power bits of the 5 needs. Haven't started yet.

Atilia you have me in tears. I'm scared 'cause well i dont know im terrified of what if. What if mum actually does take one to many (properly this time shes been in hospital twice) and its my fault? I think i still feel five around them. Where would you find a counsellor ? Im also scared of telling them and making them feel sad or not believe me 'cause i have so many bad memories they seem unbelievable? . My brother has different memories, a different childhood all together. He was/is the wanted child, they took him to all kinds of hobby classes such as rafting, karate, violin, chess club. I often got dragged along to watch or left at home. Hes very bright, and his certificates line the hallways, his A* or 10/10 used to be on the fridge. He got a saxophone, and went to the best schools (you had to sit an entrance test) i went to the local one and got bullied badly (ended up in hospital 3 times one time the kids slammed my head off the swimming pool wall and i was knocked unconscious this was due to me being a 'swot' ) ironically mum explained that if i was clever as Robert i would of went to his school too but im not so that why i go to that school. Hes now studying a PHD, and travels all over the world. I was a good sister and encouraged him to do his sums/homework while i barricaded the door and went to sort my parents out. He remembers hearing the shouting/smashing/sobbing but never saw it happening. Until i got kicked out.... Then he saw the full extent of mums unhappiness. dad was driving Robert to school on the highway with mum in the passenger seat, when mum decided to grab the steering wheel and try to steer the car into the barrier they were driving at 70 and my brother had to restrain her while she then tried to open the car door screaming and biting. After that hes never forgave mum and only phones on bdays/xmas. But despite this both mum and dad are very proud of Robert. Im proud that despite going to a bad school, and the week of gsces, dad buggered off to his mates, mum did her disappearing act (after arguing till 3am) i came out with two As (english the library was my favourite haunt while Rob went to his classes or i was home alone) and B,Cs and only one D!! Ontop of that i used to control what i ate, (one to try to stop arguments about the food bill, two i wanted to disappear both from school and home) so gcses were a struggle and i am proud of what i achieved. :D I am so sorry to tell you all of this i really am. I feel so scared now like ive backchatted or been mean, i hate talking about it i feel like a drama queen. Sorry xxx

Ellie

Did not mean to make you cry, have a virtual tissue and . Your childhood experiences were and are abusive in nature. Your parents are not worthy of the term and you were and remain a scapegoat for their inherent ills. Your brother was indeed the golden child and held up by them.

You do not have to say sorry at all (that is truly not necessary but you've been so conditioned that you feel you have to write that at all) or call yourself a drama queen. You are certainly not a drama queen; more like a survivor who has been conditioned and told by them to put your own needs last. If anyone should say sorry here and begging forgiveness it is your parents but they will never say sorry or even change now. Some people would have gone completely under and not survive a childhood as abusive as yours was. You've done very well for yourself and are a true credit to you as well. You can and should love your own self here ((((((ellie)))))).

If your mother takes too many pills and ends up hospitalised yet again that is her choice. You are not and never have been responsible at all for her actions. You probably feel very responsible though for her and she taught you to be co-dependent.

It looks like your brother has minimal contact with these people and I think it would benefit you hugely going forward if you could do the same.

Re counsellors I would not use the NHS (too few sessions and a massive waiting list) but look at someone like BACP initially. Check a couple of these people out; find someone who fits because counsellors are really like shoes. Do also read "Toxic Parents" written by Susan Forward as well as a starting point.

Firstly i want to say thank you for all your responses, kind words and really taking time to read and respond. I am in absolute tears, currently snotting over my old teddy and reading the replies to my hubby whose said these things all along. I want to get better, be able to talk about it/move on and i will read those books. Im going to respond to you all tonight around 6ish if thats okay? (Meant to be going for a day to whitby with hubby) thank you from the bottom of my heart for your kindness. Honestly you've got me in a soggy mess xxxxxxxxx

ElleyBear13 IT IS NOT YOU! You did nothing to bring this on anyone. Repeat after me, IT IS NOT ME! Now, everytime you feel those feelings crashing on you, repeat. It's not easy, get some talking therapy.

Everything Atilla said.

We're all pretty bloody furious on your behalf here.

YOU ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR THE FUCKWITTERY OF YOUR PARENTS.

You are worthy of love, respect, friendship, to be valued as a human being and much, much more.

As for being worried about becoming your parents? They do turn out to be a handy reference guide. When The cub (5) is in trouble I think 'what would my parents do here?' Then do the polar opposite.

WelcomeToTheFoldTiggaxx

elly my biological mother was something the same as yours. (she did NOT bring me up thank god though my half sisters were stuck there). Blaming you for everythign. Grabbing the steering wheel at 80 on the motorway and kicking and trying to open the door. Screaming like no one who hasn't been there would ever believe. Her suffering was always so so much worse than anyone else's and from sad observation I can tell you it really wasn't, though she did suffer a lot.

A lot of what you say, I can only say that you survived and you survived well.

About the having-your-own-child thing.

I'm in the same situation. For reasons I don't much want to go into I was at high risk of turning into her.

But it is very possible to re-write the book. It really is. The conditioning is there but it is not the only influence; the biggest thing is that you want to do it differently. That gives you the chance to do it differently.

You will need to talk to your partner a lot and YES you need SKILLED therapy. As someone said, try BACP - or ill pm you a couple of possible other routes later, got to go out now. You will need to be self-aware a lot of the time and you will need to decide how you want to deal with the really challenging things like when they are angry and pushing you to the limit.

Most of all, it is possible to do it differently.

Also, don't tell your mum anything meaningful from now on

I've been lurking here for a while. There's been some talk about becoming our mothers. I'm a new first time mum to a beautiful girl, and it's really made me think about how I do NOT want to be anything like mine. I made a list the other day of the things I'd like to do differently and found it cathartic. I hope no one minds if I share it.

As a parent, I would like to endeavor to:

See my child as a separate person
Respect her autonomy
Believe her if she says she has a relationship with God
Not steal her things
Not harm any pets she might have
Not make her eat her vomit
Let her grow up
Give up control gradually as she matures
Teach her how to make decisions
Not preach at her or frame prayers aimed at preaching
Not treat her as a child when she is an adult
Not discipline her as a child when she is an adult
Let her read and go to the library
Not squash her dreams
Let her make friends and spend time with them
Not break her trust about things she confides in me
Let her choose if she wants to wear skirts or trousers
Apologize and mean it when I am at fault
Not make her apologize when it's my fault
Not act passive aggressively and hope she gets the point - communicate clearly
Not be a travel agent for guilt trips
Clearly see any expectations I have for her and not keep her in a box

Has anyone else made a list?

elley - me too. much as i moan about hte house being messy a part of me is just glad that my son gets to actually 'live' here and make a mark. if i left my phone book by the phone it was enough to mean i walked into an icy scary atmosphere that would kick off into a screaming fit and litany of my inherent faults and awfulness

i can remember loving going to houses that looked lived in and where kids were allowed visible evidence of their existence and didn't have to tiptoe around in terror.

it really sounds like it's time to stop trying to pacify her and please her - it is not possible and you deserve a happy life without her shit in it. i would stop contacting her and whenever she contacts you and is rude or abusive i'd say i'm not having you speak to me like this and hang up.

i understand the fear but this woman is monstrous to you. she thrives on and deliberately cultivates those what if fears. you essentially rescued your brother and shielded him and instinctively wanted to protect him - it's now time to do the same for you.

my list is fairly simple i think -

-let my child know i love him
-apologise when i get it wrong and make it clear i'm human and mess up sometimes and so does EVERYONE
let him be, and see, who he IS rather than project stuff on him
-have him feel safe, comfortable and able to be himself in, and be a member of, his home
-be able to talk to me about stuff.

mainly though i think the feel loved and apologies are the big things. to not feel loved and never be shown it's ok to be human and things can be aired and dealt with and forgiven is the worst of it for me i think.

i still think a whole myriad of crap that happened to me could have left me unscathed if there'd been the odd acknowledgement that it wasn't my fault, the occasional apology or some explanation of why people acted that way and some ownership of their behaviour would have made all the difference to me personally.

for me ...

• be tolerant of small mistakes
• be accepting (very difficult when you struggle to accept yoruself fully as you are!)
• not to expect a perfectly behaved at all times boy, but to see a little human who is doing his best
• not to shout and shout at him
• absolutely not to make comments that subtly put him down.
• to listen when he says that he doesn't want to do something. To make him value himself

I hope you have a Corlath, harimad-sol =)

I do indeed, Meerka!

have you read Shadows? Just finished it.

No, I haven't. Just bought Chalice and am looking forward to it.

Reading these threads makes me wonder how I managed to find such a wonderful Corlath. I understand that daughters of narcissistic mothers often end up with narc DPs, too. I wouldn't say my DM is completely narc, but is definitely controlling and guilt-inducing, and my DDad is too, to a lesser degree. My DH is the farthest thing from narc you could imagine, and his family is lovely. So glad!

I have a lovely husband too and his family are lovely too, totally un-NARC. Maybe it's like the whole thing of you end up one yourself or codependent or NC, maybe you go one way or another with the partner you choose, either a carbon copy or the total opposite?

OMFG, HarimadSol She made you eat your own vomit???? WTAF?

Liked Chalice. Sunshine too - very different but good.

Your mother made you eat your vomit??

crosspost ...

My list would be:

Let them make their own mistakes
Let them make their own choices and stand back even if I don't agree
Let them know I love them, whatever
Not withdrawing love as a punishment
Treating them with kindness and understanding and patience always and expecting the same from them
Remembering they are children (for a long time) and not making them shoulder adult responsibilites or emotions
Not take out my own emotions and issues on them
Admit and apologise when I get it wrong
To take responsibility for my own happiness
To not guilt them
To let them go when they are ready, not cling to them and follow them and try to gatecrash their lives.
To not have a favourite, to love them equally.
To never set one against the other.
To accept them for who they are and love them for it.
To help them be happy, stable, kind people.

Good, I like your list.

Yes, it was a dinner of spaghetti squash. I've never been a fussy eater, but I couldn't handle it. Gagged and threw up on my plate. Had to eat it anyway. I've never touched spaghetti squash again.

The other memorable meal was my pet rabbit. She thought I didn't like it anymore. I'm now a vet nurse.

oh jeeze hari ... I'm sorry. :(

are you still in contact with her?

Yes, I am. I lived with my parents until I was 24, and came very close to just disappearing. But now there are a lot of miles and an ocean between us DM tries to guilt me about this but I ignore it and that makes it easier. It's also taken a lot of hard work with setting of some boundaries.

But I struggle with anger about how they treated me. They were controlling with my four siblings as well, but I got it the worst, for whatever reason. I don't want to be a person who dwells on their past constantly and blames everything on it, but I don't know how to let go of the anger.

Have you had any help with the anger. Harimad? Like counselling or therapy? You've done so well to break free and set those boundaries. Are you in touch with your siblings?

Another for my list:
Not make them afraid.
My memories of childhood have a lot of fear in them, a sort of black cloud of discomfort. I remember feeling this enormous burden of responsibility for her and it terrified me. And that's what got me into this huge mess. She still does the little girl act with me (well, did until NC) but alternates it with RAGE, which when you're the child is terrifying.

I'm trying so so so hard to do my list with my own kids, but I worry I'm not doing such a good job with the eldest, he pushes buttons (not his fault, it's my own fucked up-edness) and I'm not always sure I'm a good parent to him. But I try really fucking hard. And, interestingly it's so much easier and going so much better between us now DM is not in my life. I'm not entirely sure why, but it is.