"But we took you to stately homes!!!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

(New thread as previous one is full).

It's October 2014, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Happy Posting

it's a Internet card company. you can 'personalise' your own card and send it without even getting off your arse. I've got an idea, how about personalising an Xmas card by signing the fucking thing

Hi everyone, been estranged from the ils, along with for at least 2 years, dh 1 year.
Would you send a photo of grandchildren (one photo) at Christmas, or would you just leave things the way they are?

I don't know why I'm feeling guilt all of a sudden, I guess it's knowing she hasn't seen children's faces for 2 years.

Would it be like throwing fuel to the fire?

pumpkin don't do it, just enjoy the peace and quiet.

xx

Pumpkin

Guilt is part of the FOG that emotionally dysfunctional relations leave their now adult offspring.

You are NC with such people for very good reason.

Let sleeping dogs lie, do not send a photo of your children to them!!.

It's easy to understand pumpkin, but what would be gained? Do you want to re-open contact? Sending a photo might very easily been seen as an invitation. Or as kind of rubbing their faces in it, if they are desperate to have contact. It could be taken as a kindness ... it all depends what variety of nightshade-disguised-as-holly your ILs are. (if you've posted about them I apologise .. having a seriously dozy few days here)

Hi,

My brother warned me yesterday that DM said she'd sent the kids presents. Apparently my Uncle said I would probably send them back unopened. If that's true he's even more of a fucking twat than I thought. Chimp.
So, sure enough, amazon delivery man has just turned up with an octonauts snakes and ladders game for DS and a note from sender:
Love you more, love you forever, Granny.
Why does that hurt me so much, makes me well up?

Off to chat to my lovely therapist now, back later.

xx

ouch, Good

Maybe it hurts partly because you used to be the golden one, you basked in the sun of her regard (at least when you were younger) and it jabs at that. Now she's turning that regard on the grandchildren and not even acknowledging you exist.

The reminder of golden times taps something very deep.

or perhaps im way off the mark.

There's something a bit OTT about what she said though. Tad odd. Or is she always like that?

Goodtobetter,

Charity shop the "gift" sent by your mother and do not acknowledge it at all. Your uncle is doing his usual winged monkey behaviour too, again this is not a new development. He was always going to side with his sister over you.

Your mother is doing a behaviour called "hoovering"; people with NPD amongst other disorders often do this type of behaviour. Its no great surprise to me that she has done this.

Hoovering is manipulation to gain control over your choice to distance yourself, and typically takes the following forms:

•Ignoring your requests to break off the relationship and attempting to continue on as if nothing has changed.
.
•Asking you when you’re going to “get over it” and return to your past actions.
.
•Sending you a fake apology to give you hope that things have changed.
.
•Trying to trick you into contact by saying someone needs you, is sick, or in trouble.
.
•Triangulating with others, communicating things to you through them.
.
•Saying they’re worried about you, concerned about whether you’re okay, need to know where you are, etc.
.
•Sending unwanted cards, messages and gifts, sometimes gifts for your children, as they know you are likely to feel guilty about keeping a gift from your kids. Don’t allow this – exposing your children to manipulation is far worse!
(this is precisely what your mother has done here)
.
•Returning old items you left behind.
.
•Baiting you with drama games.
.
•Contacting you about “important” things they “forgot” and suddenly have to tell you.

Did she send anything for your DD, Good? Or just for your DS?

if you send this back to amazon, she will never know. have a look on their returns.

Good your Uncle is a stirring wanker and needs to be cut off too. De FB friend him NOW.

SHe sent ONE gift? even without the history of your DM dreadful behaviour that golden child shit is being repeated on your children as she did to you and your DB.

Do not allow this under any circumstances. don't tell DB you returned the gifts, the money will go to your account I believe for you to spend on something for BOTH your DC if you so desire.

gloves off now love, this shit got serious. how in anyone's mind can it be right to send ONE gift for one child and nothing for the other.

what a total bitch.

To be fair, I'm fairly sure there is another parcel for DD but it hasn't arrived yet. We'll see. Have had a good session with the therapist and discussed it all and have a plan. Feeling calm and in control. My therapist is ace, worth every penny :)
The message is quite typically histrionic, yes.
Thanks for all the messages everyone. I'll see what else turns up in the next few days.

Off to eat some chocolate and watch shit TV do my translation assignment before lunch.

xx

Please don't let this woman have contact with your DC until she is prepared to acknowledge and apologise for her behaviour.

Bad news though, apparently Hell freezing over is likely to happen before... and there is no sign of that either....

Good

I hope it is a cunning plan!!. Hopefully it involves not giving this game to your son.

It would not surprise me if she had only sent one "gift".

I doubt there will be any gifts for my DS this year. I hope not. I don't want there to be and I returned the last lot.

REturn the gifts or get rid of them locally. give them to a play group or something.

actually .. for me, I'm not sure that any harm can come from giving the presents, minus histrionic labels.

They have been used to her for a long time and since there can be no independent contact between them and her, I am not sure there is much harm in giving presents as long as they're roughly equal.

I might be tempted to remove the excessive label and give them to the children just saying quietly that they are from Granny.

She's been in their lives and I don't see what harm it can do and ... it just seems that in this situation, it would be alright.

Hi I'm new to the thread, but have lurked a lot.
My DD sent me to this thread, she said it would, I dunno what the word is, but help maybes?
Anyhow, I've had no contact with my parents for about 3 years now, but, my older DC and their children, visit them on holidays etc. I've never tried to stop them going, I never ask about them at all. I don't want the negativity and tears that come with contact with my DP. Just this summer I saw my mum sitting at a table in Asda cafe and I had to leave the store, I even tried to work out a way I could leave without having to walk past the window which looked onto the cafe that I'd have to pass. I know, I'm a coward. I went home shaking and cried. I'm 48 for crying out loud!! One son told me he thinks I'm being ridiculous, I know better, they are getting old etc. But I don't want to feel the way they make me feel.
The question I'm asking is, how can I deal with this without feeling my DC have taken sides? They know she was abusive, but have said it was a long time ago etc, pretty much all the guff that folk say. My DS and his family are coming to stay with me for 2 weeks, I'm dreading him bringing it up. If he does, how can I deal with it without reverting to hysterics?

Thanks guys.

i've had all those hoovering techniques bar the apology, fake or otherwise, that would never happen!

hi all. saw you were chatting about presents and wondered how long it is till i get this shit with christmas coming up. this will be the second christmas since going no contact and they were still trying to bring ds's presents round when i got suckered into speaking to my father after dramatic texts announcing he was in hospital. i'm sort of hoping it's a bit like bereavement in that it's the first time round the calendar that is the hardest with all the occasions and markers. dare i hope that this year they won't bother to try it again as last year was a complete failure and i did not cave and refused to answer the door at the appointed time they had announced by letter that they WOULD be delivering his presents and i WOULD answer?

it would be good if it was true. they could quite simply put a card through the door and enclose money if it was really about getting something to ds. the trouble being the message in the card would be awful and emotionally manipulative of course. a simple card with money in i'd happily give to him, actually possibly likewise if they posted presents or just left them at the door. last year though it was just a way of trying to get me to cave and let them have their own way, they had to bring 'poor ds' his presents and i would damn well let them. err no actually.

of course it makes you feel like shit, that's what it is meant to do, make you feel like the worst mother in the world, the most selfish, evil, melodramatic etc wanker on the face of the earth.

grrrrr! still on the plus side it's still nowhere near as much stress and abuse and hell as if i was still seeing them and would be forced to spend christmas with them.

hairylegs that sounds pretty desperate if you get such a strong reaction even seeing her through the window.

Does your son know the whole picture? I would have thought that if he sees you shaking, he could realise that no matter how long ago it was it's still vividly alive for you now.

I think the best thing you can do with him is, when he arrives, is say calmly but very firmly that you don't want your parents mentioned. That you realise they are part of his life but it hurts you a great deal, still, and that you would like to enjoy christmas and not have to dread them talking about her.

Could you get your DIL on your side? speak to her apart, tell her what happened and enlist her in helping avoid the subject?

It sounds as if your DD has more understanding of just how painful it is?

Also if the abuse is still this intense and alive in your life, then have you considered therapy?

honey ... keep going, hopefuly they won't contact! If they do ... well, you stood strong last year, you will this year :)

Assuming a present arrives for DD, I will send Christmas cards "from" the DC saying "Thank you for our presents". This is their relationship, not mine. They are not being exposed to toxicity by that and I think it would hurt them more to think she'd not only run off but didn't even send them a present. Also, in the future if there is any contact between them and her then I can hold my head high and stay I never stood in the way.
If she wants to use this as a way into an apology, then that's fine, we'll see. But I doubt it. I know what this is about and I won't let her turn it into anything more than presents which are politely received.
I know some of you will disagree but this feels right for me and I really appreciate you taking the time to respond.

Hi GoodtoBetter,

re your comment:-
"Assuming a present arrives for DD, I will send Christmas cards "from" the DC saying "Thank you for our presents". This is their relationship, not mine. They are not being exposed to toxicity by that and I think it would hurt them more to think she'd not only run off but didn't even send them a present. Also, in the future if there is any contact between them and her then I can hold my head high and stay I never stood in the way.

If she wants to use this as a way into an apology, then that's fine, we'll see. But I doubt it. I know what this is about and I won't let her turn it into anything more than presents which are politely received.
I know some of you will disagree but this feels right for me and I really appreciate you taking the time to respond".

Why does this feel right for you, genuine question btw?. Your own obligation and guilt are perhaps playing roles here.

I would urge you to have a complete rethink and not do this at all. The above is to my mind a retrograde step and will put back your own recovery from your mother by (I have no doubt at all) now many more months if you do go ahead with the above. You have made so much progress, do not throw it all away now.

Your job here amongst many is to protect your children from such malign influences like your mother. She herself will turn this into making it about far more than sending your children a present. Any response from you is a green light for her to bother you even more and from afar to boot.

Don't be afraid that you are depriving them of something important by cutting off a set of grandparents. You are only "depriving" them of bad things. Reassure yourself with that truth. Family is not everything. Blood is not binding. You are escaping the Mob Family. What should connect us is how we treat each other with love and respect. This is always a good lesson to teach our little ones. If any part of you is unsure of your decision then, for Pete's sake, don't show it. Your resoluteness will go a long way toward reassuring your children that you are acting in everyone's best interest. If your children know that you love them, they are going to feel reassured that this decision is also based in your love for them. They will find an added sense of security to know that you, as their parent, are willing to protect them even at the cost of your relationship with your own parent(s). Rather than being fearful, see the plentiful opportunities in this. You are protecting your children from someone whom you've experienced as being abusive; you are reassuring your children that you are in charge and are watchful for their best interests (creates deep sense of security); you can teach healthy family values which include that family doesn't get a pass for abusive behaviour; you can strengthen and reinforce the healthy relationships in your extended family. Kids are less likely to feel like there is a void in their life if you fill it with good things.

You already know that it is not possible to have any sort of relationship with a narcissist and that goes for your children as well. What good will it do for you to expose them to someone like your mother?. She will not behave in entirely the same ways as she did to you when you were small but it will be just as damaging. Many times the narc grandparent has a lot of extra cash to throw around since they are done raising a family. They may successfully exploit the natural selfishness of the child by using cash or toys to lure them (which is what is also happening here).

Please goodtobetter, do not expose your children to such manipulation from your mother; they will be harmed by being at all exposed to it or any contact with your mother. She damaged you and your brother markedly and the effects of that are still with you and present to this very day. They certainly do not need you to send her a card for them, why do that at all?. You may still want her approval, approval is something she will not ever give you. Your mother upped sticks and emigrated rather than give you what you still want from her. She is and will never be the kindly soul you perhaps still on some level want her to be. Time now to grieve for the relationship you should have had rather than the one you actually got. It is not your fault she is like this, you did not make her this way.

Your children certainly do not need her "gifts" (she has only sent one for your son to date) and manipulation, the self same dynamic is being played out now with your children as it was with your brother and you when you were children. She cannot be at all trusted with your most precious resource here; your children. She has already established a "golden child/scapegoat" dynamic here and she is (like many narcissists) over valuing the relationship with one of her grandchildren. She is under valuing the relationship with her other grandchild; the one she has not as yet sent any "gift" for. Such gifts are never sent without obligation and guilt attached.

Please think again.

Good

how on earth can you allow someone to treat your children like this and THANK her for the privilege of letting her consistently build up one at the expense of another? ????? On your watch? after all you have been through? really?

She sent that present with the message to make a point, you know this. She could have picked up the fucking phone and called you herself regarding the presents. Instead she has purposely put DB in prime position, so he is lapping it up, finally getting the attention he craved... she is more dangerous now than ever before! He is her biggest winged monkey and she knows it.

Your DB too is stirring shit here - why does he feel it necessary to impart ALL the shit (apparently) spewed by tweedle dee or tweedle dum?

Remind me? who was the scapegoat? was it your DB? Is that the reason why he loves to make sure that you know ALL the shitty stuff? He is LOVING his new keystone role. mark my words!

A nice person would say 'Oh btw, DM is sending gifts for the kid(s)' and leave it at that. He embellishes every fucking time, and every fucking time it HURTS YOU.

You have to understand the extent to which her poison has worked it's evil magic.

ihaven't been reading but am sad to hear your db is still playing flying monkey good.

the thing is when siblings were raised being treated differently and made to feel better/worse than the other and how the other was perceived/treated was a major part of how they felt about themselves in turn there are seemingly endless repurcussions for adult relationships between siblings. in mine and my sister's case it was impossible.

in our case even when she tried really hard (by her standards) for a while there was no escaping the fact that an integral part of her self esteem and sense of self worth and ok'ness in the world was built upon the perception of me being beneath her, her better than me, her as the good one and me as the worthless one. sooner or later she would have to reassert that to feel ok about herself. she could not handle or manage or genuinely really want an adult to adult equal relationship with me.

our situations are different obviously but i'm just explaining my example of how things go when children are raised unequally. in your case amongst other things it must be very very hard for your brother not to feel elevated by all this and as if he is, for once, in quite a powerful position (he's not of course, she is pulling the strings and triangulating and using him of course). you really do need to set an absolute boundary with your brother about this and then it's up to him whether he can do it or not and whether he's able to see what is happening to him and why and try and stop it.

GoodtoBetter - after the last significant contact with my parents, where my mother threatened to come round with DD's birthday presents, knowing that it would upset me, she proposed a deal - she would leave me alone as long as I 'acknowledged' her presents. So I did just that, I confirmed they had arrived, and gave them to the children, with the information that they came from Grandma X. I wasn't about to thank her for something that she knew I didn't want (and it isn't your dc thanking your mother, it is you). Unfortunately, as I suspected, sending the gifts was only about wheedling her way in. They dried up as soon as she realised she wasn't getting what she wanted from me. It was not about maintaining a relationship with the children, it was about getting 'in' again, under her own terms, without addressing her behaviour. I refused contact when she demanded I tell her what to buy the dc for their birthdays and as a result, she sent nothing.

It is not about the children. It is about her.

Ah well, you needn't worry as it occurred to me that I don't have her address but it seems she won't reveal it so that I can't send the presents back. What a cunt! Honestly, it laughable it really is. Fuck it, I don't even care any more. I'm done with this shit. She is just mad.
Right, I'm off to have a nice Christmas. Enough bullshit for one year.
xxx

best advice is to ignore, regift the presents/donate them so they're not in your house.