"But we took you to stately homes!!!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

(New thread as previous one is full).

It's October 2014, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Happy Posting

Aaarrgghh...so many similarities it's untrue. It is like we are all talking about the same mother. Which would make us all sisters...aaahhhhh.

But seriously, I've never even thought of the 'thank you' card thing, but my mother goes on for weeks if she sends something and doesn't get a thankyou card, but has never ever sent one to any of us in her life! And I never even realised that until now.

Amyanne I've not been to counselling, but as a therapist myself (of a different sort) I would say find another one as soon as you can.

good, I have the same situation but in reverse. I am NC with my brother, and have been since March. He was horribly cruel and abusive to me (as was his wife) and I haven't spoken to either of them since, and neither will I at any point in the future. But my mother insists on talking about him to me, and even when I say to her 'I am not interested in him, I don't want to know about him, or his wife or their kids (not little kids, all late teens/20s and carbon copies of their parents) she ignores that and continues telling me. I will then raise my voice and talk over her that I do NOT want to know, and she will either get petulant and sulk, and say 'well I have no one else to listen to me' in a whiny voice, or she will get mad. The irony of it all is that I fell out with them because I was DEFENDING HER!!! And she knows this.

I read that narc mothers always favour boys, because they are jealous of girls and see them as a threat. And I fully believe this is true. My mother is always always trying to get my sister and I to cut our hair really short, and the same of my 2 girls. It's as if our feminism offends her. I can remember once she came up to stay, and we met her at the station. I made a real effort with my appearance; pretty maxi dress, long hair up in a really high ponytail, make up on...and she looked at me and said 'you look as if you have given up on your appearance'. It was like popping a balloon...I felt so deflated. And yet she always cuts her own (short) hair, and it looks awful, lopsided, uneven. She makes remarks about my appearance all the time...'oh that would look really nice on you if only you would lose that bulge around your middle' is a favourite one of hers.

God, they are so cruel aren't they?

Mindreader you shouldn't have replied. she is texting you to ask if you received the slap in the face she sent.

NC. now.

I read that narc mothers always favour boys, because they are jealous of girls and see them as a threat. And I fully believe this is true. My mother is always always trying to get my sister and I to cut our hair really short, and the same of my 2 girls. It's as if our feminism offends her. I can remember once she came up to stay, and we met her at the station. I made a real effort with my appearance; pretty maxi dress, long hair up in a really high ponytail, make up on...and she looked at me and said 'you look as if you have given up on your appearance'. It was like popping a balloon...I felt so deflated. And yet she always cuts her own (short) hair, and it looks awful, lopsided, uneven. She makes remarks about my appearance all the time...'oh that would look really nice on you if only you would lose that bulge around your middle' is a favourite one of hers.

Oh.
my.
god.

My hair was cut short as a child - i was told it looked better like that
my mother always said she wanted a boy
she even hacks her own hair

my father is fat, i was told by him that I was. I wasn't. absolutely wasn't.
not once did she ever say anything to him, or to me to help me feel better about myself. I would tear the head off anyone who picked holes in my DS appearance.

any positive I achieved both she and DF would 'bring me back down a peg or 2' I was told i could never be x, or y or z. I therefore lacked the confidence to go to uni, so didn't. I regret that. bitterly actually.

i strongly believe that DM hated me because i became something my father was interested in other than her. I look like him, his side of the family, which naturally delighted him, his lovely mother. my sister (younger) looks like her, so became 'her baby' Her DM used to ignore and punish her (middle child) so i think i was resented. big time.

When DF went off with his OW, I was heartbroken, abandoned and alone in a house where i wasn't really wanted anymore. he moved on and threw all his effort into the cheating, scummy affair bubble, and as sthe OW saw his kids as inconvenient, we were banned from his home.

Amyanne

End the counselling now. she is one of 'them' not one of us...

she doesn't get it and as for lack of empathy?....

pfft!

ha - i was meant to be a boy called daniel by my mother, when i turned out to be a girl my father had to name me.

allegedly my mother rolled over and went to sleep when i was born and only woke up hours later and said, oh, where's the baby. this was always told as a 'funny' story. without being too self indulgent it makes me quite sad to think of a baby born then not even held for hours.

Hissy I have 4 brothers, my mum always said I was an awful baby and that boys were easier. She too can't resist a comment when we meet, whether it's about appearance, weight, child rearing or how clean my flat is.

Your post just jolted me. I always felt my fathers aggressiveness and anger and her enabling were the issue.

oh good lord honey. your mother's quite something isn't she?

hissy what you said about being unwanted when your father left resonated so much, though it was my mother that was absent. It really hurts me even now to this day to know how much I was unwanted in those fragile teen years. I'm so sorry about her tearing you down. It's so very clear that you are a gifted woman - facility for languages, a very loving mother, empathetic, sensible and hard working (and thats just what shines out on line). You deserved so much better.

How awful that you were abandoned on your dad leaving and an inconvenience to his ow. And feeling your own mum hated you.

Life is really busy right now but I'm lurking. I take solace in the amazing women on here and that it doesn't have to be our story too. We can break the abuse cycle with our DCs.

amyanne ... a confrontational therapist.

Hmm.

ive been through various sorts of therapy over the years including one stay in a specialist hospital. They could be extremely confrontational. Not to say downright brutal. It worked on the principle of tearing down the maladaptive barriers that were actually holding you back even while they were protecting you.

Confrontational therapy can work for some people. Some people need pushing. Sometimes confrontational therapy can do more in 6 months than 5 years of softer therapy.

But in this case, it doesn't sound quite right. She is pushing too hard much, much too fast. She barely knows you after two sessions. She also sounds judgemental. The brutal (and useful) therapy I underwent, they challenged you like unholy hell to face stuff but they did not presume to say that I was unloving and ought to be more empathic. So no, I don't think that this sounds quite right.

Most all, the unloving stuff seems odd because as a rule people with highly difficult mothers, maybe even personality disordered emotionally disordered, tend to have to handle a lot of guilt around their parent. Saying that you are unempathetic is feeding directly into that guilt ... Unhelpful, much?

Additionally she seems to be trying to push you to be the mature, sensible, restrained and loving one. In fact, the mother role itself.

The choice of to go NC or LC or fairly full contact is naturally yours. It sounds like she's almost pushing you to stay full contact.

Actually, the point can come where someone is so damaging to be around that the only reasonably self-preserving thing to do is to go LC or NC. You are absolutely entitled to live your life not in misery. You are entitled to lead a pleasant life, as long as it's not at the expense of other people. It really doesn't sound like you are living your life at hte expense of others. Your mother however is.

Still, it's maybe in the long run quite useful to have different perspectives on how to handle your mother. But in all honesty, having been through a lot of therapy to try to help me handle my own rocky background, I think there is a quite enormous reservoir of wisdom on Mumsnet and it's worth weighing up the advice here v the therapist's advice quite carefully.

/ essay over! :)

thanks don't, meerka I was 16 when the affair came out. (anonymous calls while dm was out, oh yes, DGM sis and me took the numerous calls)

I was left with people who I ddidn't even know, dm and dsis. I picked up their pieces and made myself useful.

I was there for her when her relationship ended. no-one was there for me when my marriage ended. nor when I took the OD, nor when I tried to escape the dv relationship. she booked herself to NZ in the run up to my (much known) end to aforementioned dv relationship.

DF said as I left the UK to never forget that he was there if I needed any help.

when I alluded to wanting to leave/being unhappy, he trotted out with 'well, no-one forced you to go there..' 'bed', 'made' and 'lie in it' was what I heard.

seeing the sympathy here, fromnstrangers makes me emotional, and then angry at them. I swear to god, if life deals me the hand I deserve and I get the ticket out of here to a new life, i'm off like a fucking shot. i'll tell my aunt and my cousin, but not the rest.

I know my sis has made ppeace, but tbh. too much has gone on and i'm not the person they need me to be anymore. i've resigned my role as whatever the fuck it was they saw me as.

my only wish in life is to find a man I can love and have love me back, who has super parents I can love as much as my heart desires.

I hope that new life is somewhere else, somewhere abroad so I can be myself again without memories/shadows.

now I understand why I was so happy in latin america. I was free and had no toxic bastard trying to make me feel shit about myself.

I owe it to myself to be the best I can be. reluctantly healing agoraphobia, and lack of confidence aren't helping my physical health, I do need to lose weight, but am scared to do so somehow. scared of being more of a target of resentment/seen as a threat.

have supposed hot date in 2 weeks.. incentive enough...? :)

Hissy oh yes...all my life I have heard how boys are easier. And how she would rather have a dozen sons than one daughter (always nice to hear). And yet...that 'easy' boy was always bringing shame and trouble to the family, did time for armed robbery, drinks too much, has an alcoholic wife, is MASSIVELY overweight. I, on the other hand, have never broken the law, never embarrassed her, never been a 'bad' child. But she'd rather have 12 of the former than one of the latter?

i'm not a 'girly girl', never fussed with my (short) hair. dsis had bobbles, plaits, ribbons.

the reason I never bothered with fluff/frills and stuff is because no-one bothered with me, isn't it?

man this hurts. :(

i'm finding this year harder because there's been no 'event'. no moving without telling me, no pack of bullshit blown out of the water for all to see.

and no storming in my house/police etc.

digging deep is going to be the order of the day, eh?

Hello I'm new, but I've been looking for a place to vent properly. My mum and dad did have NT memberships and used to take us to lovely homes and tea shops. But they hated each other for about twelve years. My mum was having an affair, my dad covered it until they divorced. They lied to us us all our childhood, I think it bothers me now that I have a dd the same age as me. At her age I was a liar for sure and maybe not such a nice person,but that was all put on me, I wAs broken, a faulty daughter. Ouch.

Welcome luann. Strange how parents who aren't working properly blame the innocent children :(

It's also appalling how people think that they can lie to children and it not affect them, either then or later on when you realise that your foundations weren't solid but illusion.

At least we can try to do things differently for our children ...

hissy ... maybe you wouldn't have been a girly-girl anyway? Or did you really want the princess curls and frills?

I guess this is the stage where the new status quo has been reached. No adrenaline from more dramatic happenings ... adjusting to This Being The Way Things Are?

I think if there's been the fuss and the primping, you'd expect it/get used to it. fact is, there was never any fuss in our house, not when you're ill, not when you do something good etc.

the first time I was told I was good at anything was when I staarted french lessons in secondary school. because that's something no-one in my family has the first idea of.

my younger dsis was blonde, blue eyed and had boBbles, slides, frills to sink a battle ship. her hair got put up into bunches etc.

eventually her hair got cut short too, but we both have long hair now.

i was always told frills and stuff my sister wore/liked or fashions at the time didn't suit me, 'due to my size'

at the time I believed it. photos however don't lie. I was no different in size to dsis.

there was no apparent reason why I couldn't have worn such things, but told i'd look wrong/bad/ridiculous/fat was enough for me to shy away from them and dress 'for my size'

jeeze.

arrg why do mothers do this to their children????

Oh wow so many messages!! And so much that resonates and that I want to respond to.

Same here with the short hair My mum said it was because I refused to stand still to have my hair brushed. I actually pretended to be a boy for a while, I think to get in my dad's good graces (not that he had any).

I was not a pretty child, looking at photographs. My hair was close cropped and really unflattering, and I sucked my thumb until 9 or 10, which forced my whole jaw forward and my front teeth to stick out. I was always so tense that my shoulders were up round my ears. Last time DM was here i was showing dh a picture of me at about 10 years old and he laughed. DM got all defensive and was saying "but she was so LOVELY". She always goes on about how bright and normal I was, which I think is either denial or overcompensating for the fact that I was very clearly miserable and disturbed as I cried an awful lot, thought a lot about suicide, self harmed, sucked my thumb, bit my fingers and skin until they bled and wanted constantly to run away. This is all at the age my daughter is now, and if I had any inkling that she felt even a 1000th of the way I felt at that age, I would instantly get her help. My parents thought it was all my fault and abused me for being too sensitive, too miserable, unlikeable, and too angry.

My dm is also incapable of giving me a genuine compliment without it being slightly backhanded. She is deeply jealous of my hair, because her own is very thin, and mine is (ridiculously) thick and wavy. So she always says "oh you're so LUCKY to have such thick hair (or to be slim, or to wear tops like that, or whatever) so she makes it all about her and instead of feeling lifted, I feel guilty.

Also another one whose dm is very keen on receiving thank you notes but has never actually sent one herself And it had never occurred to me to think this was wrong or weird!

This morning on Facebook someone posted this page called www.youarenotcrazy.com and although it's aimed at women whose partners are abusing them, it was massively validating for me. My parents were textbook verbal abusers, but particularly my father. I wonder whether my dm was fairly normal when she married him but that she was so besotted and enmeshed and codependent, that she became more and more like him as the years went by. Not that this is excusing her, but she really has had a shitty life in many ways.

i'm not the person they need me to be anymore. i've resigned my role as whatever the fuck it was they saw me as.

Oh I love this Hissy Yes you can be free. We all can. I resign my role too!

Hissy, that's interesting re the French. The only area of my life where my father never criticised me was my ability to learn foreign languages. For some reason, in that area alone, he didn't feel the need to berate me, undermine me, humiliate me, etc etc.

He actually speaks other languages quite well himself, but not as well as I do, and his brother was a translator, so I wasn't the first in that respect, but he was able to see me for who I was and how good I was at something without all his shit coming into it as it usually did - just in that one area.

And I have always found it easy to learn new languages, and cannot help wondering what other things might have come more easily to me if I hadn't had my confidence and self belief in every other area ritually murdered by those three fuckers.

Yy also to being dressed like a boy. My mother also kept my hair really short, in a completely boyish cut - not a cute bob or anything - and dressed me in my brother's hand me downs. Then got all huffy when people complimented her on her "two lovely little boys". Acted like they were a bit simple or something for not realising. FFS!

I vividly remember being in the girls' toilets at primary school and looking round at all the other girls, and realising that they all had long hair. I was about 6, and it was like a revelation - this is what girls do, they have long hair! From then on, I grew mine. Whatever femininity I've ever had, it's always been in spite of my mother, not something she supported me with.

Amyanne I agree with everyone else that this counsellor sounds like really bad news. She could do you a great deal of harm, I would really urge you to stop seeing her straightaway - she clearly has her own agenda and a lot of issues of her own.

The relationship between parent and adult child is not one of equals, with equal power and equal control over the input into the relationship, especially not when there has been any kind of abuse involved.

You were not your mother's carer at the most vulnerable and formative time of her life. Your mother never owed her physical and emotional survival to you. You did not shape her with your actions and beliefs.

The fact you are both adults now does not mean that all her influence of the past has been wiped clean and you are both starting from zero! Only a fool - or someone in very deep denial - could think that. (Come to think of it, my father has expressed similar ideas... Hmm...) A counsellor in very deep denial, you do not want, believe me!

Talking Bless the poor old french, tis WAY down the list of languages having fallen into disuse, although very new and potentially interesting LDR with un homme coquin de Paris has had me practicing like a loon on Duolingo for the last couple of weeks... Getting there... :)

When I have it back up and better, I will start on Danish, so I can watch Borgen.... If I had all the time and money in the world, I would collect languages, the more the merrier..

HIssy, Im still struggling SO MUCH with dutch. can I borrow your facility with languages? :D

Interesting development, Hissy!