"But we took you to stately homes!!!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

(New thread as previous one is full).

It's October 2014, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Happy Posting

even if they seem innocuous to him.

Hi good to better. I am so sorry your are feeling so bad, but I promise it will pass.

My bros and I now have a policy where we don't tell the other anything my mother says. That's a little easier for me as I have cut down to bare minimum contact but my brother still talks to her. And reading between the lines from what he said, she has been complaining about me quite a lot to him. And he has not once mentioned anything, not one word. He understands why I don't talked to her as does my other bro, and both respect it. I don't need to hear it.

As for my mum. Before we really started to understand her, we had a family meeting where we could air our problems.

I was not in the room with her at the time as I was in another country but my sister in law was.

And the moment any of us tried to tell her how we felt, my sister in law said that you could see a wall come up. The words would come close to her face and bounce off.

There was no way that what we all were saying was her reality and she was not going to accept it. All of her children there, telling we how much they were hurting, and nope. She was not going to accept that reality, she was going to keep hers, not apologise and then blame my deceased father for everything.

This is the world you mother is living in. She has her own version of what happened. And there is no one who will be able to push through that wall.

I am sorry, just remember that it gets better.

still amazes me that my father turning up unannounced literally said in front of ds, it's not fair to leave ds without a family. errr he has a family thanks, we ARE a family.

they can be really 'attached' (read possessive, controlling, boundary-less) grandparents and sometimes it's just about trying to win, prove you are the bad one and they are the perfect ones according to their delusion as well as the whole narcissistic supply children can provide.

honeybadger that's what I'm really beginning to understand just today. I read all that about NC before but I am realising that I cannot have any contact, even indirectly through hearing about her. It is bad for my mental health.

DM used to do that with DS and in fact one of the things she said this summer in her ranting that provoked the NC was that she had "basically brought DS up for the first 9 months of his life" Hmm, yes right, because she came up in the afternnoons during the week for a couple of hours.

"I have to stop all this crap once and for all. (yes, I know really the way to do that is total NC, I do.)"

That last sentence of yours Good is the one that needs to be your mantra now. I previously told you that the only way you will get peace is to completely disengage from your mother.

No contact is precisely that, there is no communication at all. People have to be told that you are not interested in hearing anything about her and they must not forward stuff like this onto you.

yeah and if they said this shit to our faces can you imagine what they led others to believe good?

i had to write off my whole family -i realised extended family would have no idea at all who i was and the thought of the bile they'd been fed about me since childhood made me feel ill. my sister unfortunately was just as toxic and way too enmeshed with my family. in a way it's easier - not that it wouldn't be nice to have relatives but the webs these people spin affect everyone ime and every relationship around them.

you need to talk to your bro and draw up some boundaries i think and agree that if you're to have a relationship going forward it's 'your' relationship and she has no place in it itms.

Your brother knows your mother all too well as the unfavoured child, even if he can't quite break free - or hasn't been pushed that far -and he's been a great source of support for you when the rest of the family has been seriously unhelpful.

But yes, he needs to be careful and not make any more mistakes.

I think your mother can't help herself in putting a nice spin on things. she believes it herself.

this maybe hurt so much because dresses are the sort of thing a normal grandmother might buy. she's talking the talk though god, she can't walk the walk. But even talking the talk jabs hard because that's what she should be. The illusion of true caring hurts so much because you know what the situation actually is. Er .... if that isn't reading too much into it.

also whilst you will think about this sometimes obviously i try to keep the no contact thing to my head as well - when i start thinking/ruminating on them or what they think of me in the here and now i remind myself, 'no contact', and change thought tracks.

just having them in my head in a way that influences how i feel or see myself and is taking me to that place is toxic enough. they need depriving of oxygen there too.

Thank you so much, all of you for your input (waves to Aussiebean it's lovely to "see" you again).
I feel so much calmer. I have made a decision. I will not write to my mother. I do not want to hear about her from other people. I'm going to tell Dbro that I will not read any more forwarded e mails, that I don't want to hear news about her. I want us to have a brother/sister relationship without her in it.
I'm going to work hard on me, going to do my mindfulness, try to start swimming again, work hard for my professional exams and try to get her out of my head. It's like a boil that needs to be lanced and the pus drained away.

No, Meerka I think you're spot on, there. It's like what MIL would do, buy pretty dresses for her perfect little GD, but MIL would rather cut off her own arm than not see DD again.

goodtobetter ...

I think you are better off looking to your mother in law for love, family love and anything meaningful from now on.

it's not the same as your own mother, but sometimes it's the best you can have ... and it can be very, very good.

Hiya all

I've lurked for ages and had thought I had everything sorted in my head but have been having a bit of a wobbler the last couple of days so just really looking to know others can relate, that I'm not going mad! I can't stand my mum. We've been NC for almost a year with the previous 4-5 going from frequent contact until I couldn't cope with her and then to LC in repeated circles. I feel like I'm back to square one basically - I really do not like her as a person but I'm feeling sorry for myself (I think because it's approaching Christmas) and I basically want my mum . Does it make sense to say I don't want her but I want my Mum?

Our house was a bit crazy growing up - my dad was an alcoholic and the relationship between them was volatile to say the least. He got sectioned with bi-polar when I was 13 and then they separated when I was 15. We were really, really close with me as her main support e.g. I paid the bills, looked after the family business, got any work needing done round the house organised etc. etc.

She was always hard on me growing up and expected a lot which I didn't mind but things blew completely out of proportion when I decided I wanted to go to University. Cue lots of rows - she said I was abandoning her and wasn't allowed, I said I was and if I made all the family decisions I could make that one for myself. And I did go.

Things got 1000 times worse than they always were. I know it sounds stupid but the better I did in life, the more annoyed/disappointed in me she seemed. I've always been a high achiever and I think now, older and wiser, I've always been trying to get her approval but really the more I achieved, the worse her criticism became. She makes plain she thinks I've an opinion of myself because I wear make-up these days and have a good job. She has always been vocal that she thinks my career is a waste of time and that I should be "doing the decent thing" and marrying and having kids.

It was never overtly discussed between us but there were hundreds of veiled comments made to me when I was 16/17 about being decent and starting a family with a man (staunch Catholic). I'm not making any excuses for it but I rebelled hugely against it (unbeknownst to herin fairness) and found myself pregnant at 19. Unfortunately, I didn't carry to term but it always stuck in me that when I told her it was the only time she EVER gave me praise. She was so happy and said "thank God, I thought you were a lesbian". She was so happy I was pregnant from a one-night stand when I didn't have clue who the father was. The big kicker was that I am gay and just fought it for a long, long time.

Anyway, apologies because I keep going off on irrelevant tangents but she was so annoyed when I lost the baby and from that her criticism of me became unbearable.

I tried. I really did. I did everything I could to try and fix it between us and make her like me until she told my brother last year I said my DN was ugly. She has always told lies about me and my DB, who I've always been so close with and who always seen how she treated me and tried to make her be a bit nicer believed her and then stopped speaking to me. That's when I went NC with her.

I sent her a letter at that time to tell her I was going NC and that I wouldn't be contacting her again until she told my Db she lied - I adore my DN. I also set out all the other reasons - mean things she would always say, that she kicked my dog, that she stole money from me and that I knew she knew I was gay and told me one day to think of my DU (who is gay) and to remember what happened to him (entire family cut him out) and about all the lies she had told about me to her friends and my family until they stopped speaking to me.

So it's been almost a year and I am so much happier - first time in my life I feel content and at ease and free to live my life as me. My DB have mended our fences and everything is going brilliant without her but sometimes I just want my mum to give me a hug and say well done or there there. And the sensible side of me is screaming you know that's not going to happen, don't put yourself through that misery but I'm tempted to get in contact with her anyway just in case.

I just really want someone to tell me not to be stupid and not to do it. This is epically long so sorry and thanks very much if you managed to get to the end.

you don't need us to tell you that this wouldn't go the way you want it to.

she'd hurt you again, and you'd be back to square one.

resist, dig deep. keep posting

Hi Tilly,

Do not restart contact with your mother under any circumstances.

You need to continue to grieve for the mother you should have had but did not through no fault of your own. Perhaps this is partly why you feel sorry for yourself but feeling sorry for yourself is itself no reason, let alone a good reason, to restart any form of contact with someone who so hurt you and your siblings for many years. She is never going to give you the approval you perhaps still seek from her. This woman can and will still put the boot into you.

Your mother has never apologised nor has shown any remorse for her actions. People like your mother never apologise nor accept any responsibility for their actions and your mother has not made any approach to you. Such inherently selfish people like your mother (she also stayed with her alcoholic h and put him before you people for the first 15 years of your life) as well always want the last word and are looking for a fight. The person who will lose the most here by going back will be you and you alone. Do not fall into the "sunken costs" fallacy; the damage here by your mother has already been done.

If you get back in any form of contact with your mother it will undo all of that progress you have made since going no contact. You can now live your life as you and you have a relationship with your brother (one that your mother tried her hardest to damage); that in itself is fabulous. You've come a long way; keep going forward and do not look back.

Keep posting here as well.

Hi, I'm looking for some opinions on my counselling sessions from those who have also attended sessions. I have only been twice, but at the first session she spoke to me a bit about herself and her method (so that I could decide if she was for me or not). She told me that her approach can be quite confrontational because she really wants her client to delve deeply into themselves, and learn more about themselves. Indeed she was quite confrontational, and I would say a bit harsh.

She is not at all interested in focusing on the person with the personality disorder (my mum in this case) and focuses on me, which is good I guess but it has kind of left me feeling that I am partly responsible for the type of relationship that we have. I have decided NOT to go NC and want to manage a 'normal' relationship, at low contact if need be. So what she is saying is that it's me that has to change. "Give me the strength to accept that which I cannot change, give me the courage to change what I can and give me the wisdom to know the difference." Or something like that. That kind of makes sense. She has said that she will never change so I have to stop doing the same things and expecting a different result because I will never get it. So if I want to maintain a relationship then it's my reactions, responses etc. that need to change.

She also said that I'm also lacking in empathy. The counsellor says my mum has had a horrible childhood which has obviously caused her to feel a lot of pain, neglect, anger etc. which she of course did not deserve and she did not ask to be like this, and probably wishes she wasn't like this. She is being a terrible mother and with each 'thing' that happens it drives her children further and further away but she can't change the way she is and never will be able to. I am so wrapped up in myself and how I feel that I don't have any empathy and have failed to even think about how awful it must be to be living in such a world of pain where you were abused, emotionally rejected, your children don't want to see you or spend time with you etc. and that we are kind of doing the same thing to each other but in different ways. I guess it is true, I have never really stopped to think about it from her perspective (just as she doesn't think of things from mine). My mum said to me that she should never have been a mother which to me and other people I've told is a shocking and hurtful comment but the counsellor said no wonder she thinks that, because she has been a terrible mother who has had no idea how to parent and she has messed it up. So of course she thinks it didn't work for her.

Brief practical strategies she gave me for coping with day to day comments were just to kind of either ignore, laugh about, nod and say 'really?' and move on without making a thing of it.

I was just surprised at her very direct and unsympathetic approach. I guess subconsciously I must have been expecting her to say things along the lines of the advice that I've read on here- she's toxic, you're best to keep a distance, don't respond, that was a terrible thing for her to say and do, deep down she doesn't care about you and just wants to control you, it's impossible to have a relationship with people like this, poor you and so on. But instead it was quite the opposite and she's almost suggesting that I am complicit in the way the relationship has turned out and could become the same to my daughter. She only said that the only person that can change things is me, I have the power to do that whereas she does not.

So yeah I was just hoping that others who have been to counselling could share what their experience has been like, what they found effective etc.

Thanks

Oh my mum and I haven't spoken for two weeks and she has said that I should send her a message saying I'm looking forward to seeing her when I visit in a couple of weeks. I had decided at the time not to reply to her mini-rant and for me to do so would feel like I was 'giving-in'. She said that's the mind-set that I need to let go of, and I should respond to things with love. What do you think?

I have decided that I'm not going NC, so I guess for those of you that have gone NC, your response would be totally different to those that are maintaining some kind of relationship? Interested in hearing all views.

Honestly Amyanne I would find another counsellor to work with now. This particular counsellor seems to really have no idea of the dynamics involved in dysfunctional families.

It is NOT your fault your mother is the way she is. Her own birth family did that to her.

Counsellors are like shoes; you need to find someone who fits. Also you need to find someone who has no familial bias about keeping families together despite the presence of mistreatment.

Re the comments that the counsellor made:-
"Brief practical strategies she gave me for coping with day to day comments were just to kind of either ignore, laugh about, nod and say 'really?' and move on without making a thing of it"

Actually I have seen similar counsel mentioned to people who have dysfunctional relations on other parts of the Relationships board. To my mind such comments are not helpful at all because these are the solutions that people would use for their emotionally healthy relatives. Also such relatives would apologise and take responsibility for their actions. The "normal" rules of familial interaction goes out the window when it comes to dysfunctional family members. Using such comments in response to these people therefore simply does not work because such comments made by the toxic parent to their now adult offspring are never said out of miscommunication or misunderstanding.

Re your comment:-
"I have decided NOT to go NC and want to manage a 'normal' relationship, at low contact if need be".

May I ask why you have decided not to go NC?.

Even though you have decided not to go NC you have every right to change your mind about that in the future particularly if your mother continues to ride roughshod over you.

What is a "normal" relationship though at low contact?. What do you want to achieve here relationship wise with regards to your mother?. Do you want acknowledgement or an apology?. If your mother is for instance a narcissist, it is not possible to have any sort of relationship with her. What you wish for and what you may receive could be two very different things.

Re your comment:-

"Oh my mum and I haven't spoken for two weeks and she has said that I should send her a message saying I'm looking forward to seeing her when I visit in a couple of weeks. I had decided at the time not to reply to her mini-rant and for me to do so would feel like I was 'giving-in'. She said that's the mind-set that I need to let go of, and I should respond to things with love. What do you think?"

There's a good reason you have not spoken to her for two weeks.
I would send her a very different message but really any response from you will be seen by her as a reward to bother you even more. She is demanding really that you still worship her!. Also its a bit rich of her to mention the word "love" in all this when she herself made the terrible choice not to love. She truly does not know the meaning of the word. This is clearly not the action of someone who is emotionally healthy.

Such people like your mother really do not change. Is it worth really maintaining such a one sided relationship with your mother at all because your mother is all take, take and take some more. She will never give you approval or the acknowledgement that you are a person with feelings in your own right.

I'm rushing off but I would say your counsellor is talking out of her arse.

Sorry, it was the counsellor who said that I should let go of the mind-set of not wanting to text as I feel like I would be "giving-in" and that I should respond with "love". She did say that I will need to accept that my mother cannot and will never change, and there is nothing that I can do to make her change. The only thing I can change is myself or rather how I react in the relationship as at the moment it is often a back and forth battle of each of us saying this that and the next thing which is totally pointless.

I have one more session with the counsellor before I visit my mum for a length of time. I'll see how the visit home goes and then in the new year I plan to really sit down and think about where to go in future- re. a suitable counsellor and how or if to continue a relationship with my mum.

I am just really interested to hear about others' counselling experiences.

Ah.
I replied to Mother's cheque and bits for kids on 24th saying a polite 'thank you'. I figure if she sold the stuff then my kids might as well benefit. The bits and bobs sent for the kids are genuine enough and she deserves a polite 'thank you' for that.

Today I get this: 'haven't heard from u since u received box'. Just that.

(naturally it was sent recorded...).

I have replied: 'that's odd, I sent an email 3 days ago. here it is below: xx'.

I wonder what reply this will engender???

(maybe she will accept it 'got lost' like her thank you email apparently did for the parcel the children sent for her birthday including the handmade cards and pictures etc? somehow I think not...)

Amyanne:

"She did say that I will need to accept that my mother cannot and will never change, and there is nothing that I can do to make her change. The only thing I can change is myself or rather how I react in the relationship as at the moment it is often a back and forth battle of each of us saying this that and the next thing which is totally pointless."

Weeeell, this MAY all be true (don't know enough about your situation) but certainly the 'you should respond with love' is an ODD thing for a Counsellor to say???

A good Counsellor will help you to explore your feelings and help you clarify your decisions for yourself, whilst supporting you in the process, not attempt to 'guide you' one way or another.

Sorry, it was the counsellor who said that I should let go of the mind-set of not wanting to text as I feel like I would be "giving-in" and that I should respond with "love".

Counsellor is well off the mark there and as for the responding with love, no no and no again!. I do not think your counsellor is the right one here and poor quality counselling can be harmful in its own right. If this person does not really fit in with your approach then this person is not the right one.

Re this comment:-
"She did say that I will need to accept that my mother cannot and will never change, and there is nothing that I can do to make her change. The only thing I can change is myself or rather how I react in the relationship as at the moment it is often a back and forth battle of each of us saying this that and the next thing which is totally pointless"

Your mother will not indeed change and you can only change how you react to her. What you may ultimately have to do is disengage from her entirely. Your mother actually likes the back and forth drama she herself sets out to create; it provokes a reaction in you which for her is its own reward. Power and control is something she has very much over you.

How really do you think your visit home will go?.

Any mother figure who writes what she has should really be given a very wide berth. Also you would not have tolerated any of that from a friend, your mother is truly no different.

MindReader

Your mother will continue to tie you up in knots so long as you keep engaging with her in any way. She will never give you a straight answer on anything.

She did really not deserve any thanks from you at all. My guess too is that she never sent your children a thank you note of any sort either.

Attila - re thank you card re kids - do you KNOW her?

She 'ties me up in knots' very very much less than she used to, thanks to some excellent counselling some years ago.

But, yes, I am still engaging on some levels and she is still playing her games.

I heading towards the 'detatched observation' stage, now I think?

I am also able to see how this most crucial of founding relationships being very wonky has affected me in other interactions - I am dealing with a completely Narcissistic Head Teacher atm and it is taking up huge amounts of energy on my part not to go into the 'powerless' state...

MindReader

No I do not know your mother (have quite enough with my own thanks:) let alone MIL who is really a wolf in sheeps clothing) but I know that you really do need to completely disengage from her.

BTW what is she like with your children?. I would think twice before getting them to send her anything in the mail. She really does not deserve their consideration either.