"But we took you to stately homes!!!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

(New thread as previous one is full).

It's October 2014, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Happy Posting

(((((((((((((((GoodtoBetter))))))))))))))))))

What you told your son was absolutely fine.

Thanks, feeling a bit wretched tonight.

hope you're feeling better this morning good

Thanks Meerka. I feel crap. More shit has come to my attention and I'm having a really really hard time dealing with it. I have to go and pick up the power of attorney. I'll write when I get back.

take care.

Goodtobetter and Hissy it is lovely and empowering to read how much you both care about your DSs and how much you want to be the best parents possible. This is the reason we are going through all this shit, otherwise we would just be clueless and stagger through life taking our pain out on others, as our parents did to us.

My DS is also having a rough time at the minute, he hates the new group at his daycare and it's getting worse every day. I waited it out to see whether it was just the change, but he is really unhappy and I can see him changing from a sunny, happy little boy into one who has a big weight on his shoulders. Thanks to my "D"Ps, I find it so, so hard to express my opinion or criticise others and so I am having to fight against all their evil conditioning in order to ensure that something is done. I have made an appointment with the head of the daycare tomorrow because I told him I would be there for him and I am the one who will protect him. (I am also doing this in a second language which I'm not very fluent in).

It's amazing how we can do the things for our children that were never done for us, and that we don't do for ourselves.

Poor little scrap, he also dislocated his elbow on Monday night so we had to take a trip to the ER to get it put back.

It's funny that my dd is very resilient and just thrives happily wherever we put her - loved daycare, loved kindergarten, loves school. My ds is much more like me, much more sensitive and needs to feel safe and take changes much more slowly. However, I will NEVER tell him to toughen up or that he is too sensitive. I adore him just the way he is. And I believe that when he grows up, his sensitivity will be a great asset.

I do feel a little like I'm being tested now, to stand up for my son and stand up for myself at the same time. Now that I've spoken the words that what my parents did was wrong, I'm being invited to walk my talk, as it were.

We're going to decorate the apartment today with some tinsel and fairy lights, and I bought the DCs some Christmas window stickers. Maybe we can all emerge a bit from our November grump.

I loathe Christmas but don't want the DCs growing up feeling like that.

Me again, sorry

I read somewhere that children of narcissists only have two choices - they either grow up up to be narcissists themselves or they grow up to be completely codependent. I am epically codependent and working on changing this, but in a way I'm grateful that I went that way and didn't become NPD because then I'd be just like them and wouldn't even notice or care.

muminboots, I agree totally. I would hate to be a narc...I am the polar opposite of my mother. I always fight the kids' corner, always on their side, shower them with love and affection and cuddles, always have time for them and am never too busy for them (even when I am if you know what I mean). I went to all their school plays, assemblies, parent's evenings. I cannot recall my parents ever being at plays, assemblies, parents evenings...they just never came. My mother had and still has a huge persecution complex which meant that everyone (in her mind) was looking down on her and judging her, so she would just never go.

mum I know exactly what you mean about finding it hard to stand up when things are going wrong for your child (or yourself). It's one of the hardest challenges for me. (and I know what it's like in a second language that you're not very fluent in too . Same situation).

Go for it, the Stately Homes crowd are behind you.

I don't think it's true you have only two choices. There are a LOT of people who grow up to be different ... look at the threads on Relationships over time, quite a lot of people have appallingly selfish or self-centred in laws but their partner is the odd one out, the one who has managed to escape. I\m told that it's true there is a lot higher rate of mental distress and illness among the children of these people, but it's not inevitable.

no i think the choices they have are become a narcissist, live a life of codependency OR go non contact.

the 'stuck' bit is that you will never have a healthy relationship with a narc so you either have to be a narc yourself or resign yourself to no boundaries, no recognised right to be a whole person in yourself etc in order to stay in relationship with them.

if you manage NOT to be a narcissist then you have two choices, codependency or going it alone.

I find it soooo much easier to ask to leave work a few mins early if my son needs picking up/CM needs to go somewhere etc etc, but if it's just for me, I can't ask.

it was only the insistence of my colleagues that I never take a lunch hour and therefore should just go a bit earlier as I was going to visit friends a 2 hour trip away that made me actually do it.

we are conditioned to believe that we can't expect/ask for anything for ourselves aren't we...

Massive spewing-out-of-emotional-crap alert. I just need to talk about this, I don't mind if nobody responds, I just need to say it. I tried to talk to my therapist but he hasn't got any slots any earlier than our scheduled one next Tuesday, so MN is taking the brunt I'm afraid.

DM has seen a house in NI and if she hasn't put in an offer already, she will be. That's fine. But, there was a bit on an e mail about the place she's bought as it was a chain e mail and the whole thing was forwarded to me (by DBro, yes I know...that needs to stop but it's done now). Here's the bit that has totally destroyed me:

Hi G2B's Dbro, It's been a productive day so far. Left my phone in to be unblocked, had a wonderful lunch, bought a bungalow, shopped for woollies in XX, went into ecstasies over clothes for beautiful little girls in Monsoon. Unfortunately they are party clothes suitable for centrally heated houses here but poor llttle G2B's DD would be frozen. Pity . In particular there was a sea green and silver one which was the most beautiful dress I have ever seen. Could have teamed it with a little white fur cape with a mock diamond fastening...but she would still have frozen. Not the sort of outfit you could have teamed with leggings. So it's all going well. Picked up an application form for the free all-Ireland public transport. So I´m getting there. Love, G2B's mother.

Because she basically doesn't give a fuck, does she? (I have wondered whether this is deliberate about DD as she reckons Dbro will send it to me and she's goading me. Maybe not, maybe she's enough of a psychopath just to be really pleased with herself.) I bet she's not as cheery to my uncle, she's apparently on speaking terms again with her sister that's she's been ignoring for years after a row. But how can anyone be all chirpy about dresses for a granddaughter she's just abandoned, that she's just decided to emigrate and never see again? How does this not have her weeping in a heap on the shop floor?

I feel like I am the wronged one, all I ever did was say (by silence) I will not be treated like this and she is swanning around as happy as larry now that she's got away from us, not a glance back...all chirpy about home improvements and I, like the mug I am have been sad about her leaving. She has my uncle and aunt (and posiibly cousins) fawning over her and no doubt slagging me off and helping poor little old her to buy somewhere.

I see there is no mention of ill health, no ailments even though she was apparently housebound here. I see also that despite her claims of being financially ruined she will be buying a 140, 000 pound house and refurbishing it.

I am thinking of writing to her to tell her once and for all what she has done and why I stopped speaking to her and to tell her I hope she is happy never to see her gc ever again.

Don't worry, I will think very carefully before I write anything. But I couldn't sleep last night for my brain whirring. I even got up and wrote this at about 130 am:
You asked some time ago why I am not speaking to you. Because there is no point. The only thing I have wanted to hear from the beginning is for you to say sorry. Sorry for what you said about me. Sorry for calling me a liar, a thief, a bad mother, a bad daughter, a disappointment. But you won't. You would rather lose me. You would rather choose to never see DD and DS again. You chose to say those things and you chose (and continue to chose) not to apologise. You decided to leave, to leave without a word. All that rather than say you behaved badly and that you were sorry. That hurts me more than you can understand, but it is your choice and I can't change your mind. There is always a choice and this is yours. Bob asked me to have a relationship with you for the sake of the grandchildren but it is you who holds that in their power, it is you who has to mend the bridges. It would seem you are happy enough where you are.

or just write "I know the truth about you, you old bitch".

I have to stop all this crap once and for all. (yes, I know really the way to do that is total NC, I do.)

it's deliberate - she KNOWS you're going to see.

do not bite!

mi querida Good

no. you're wrong about what's going on here.

she is not doing this on purpose. no.

she believes it.

it's denial darling.m pure and simple.

anytime I told my mother that when she would not contact me for (literally 2-3) weeks when I happened to even mention that I wasn't having a tip top day (in my abusive relationship, trapped in an apartment for months on end in a country full of c*unts basically) she would say to my face, in all honesty that she didn't.

when I pushed it once and cited exact examples where she'd let me down, on purpose and then denied it, she went into some really weird place in her head for a moment. I think she was 'recaculating her route/plan'

if she was cognisant of what she's really done, said etc that would make her a monster.

and she can't be a monster, that would blow her perfectness out of orbit.

remember those with narc tendencies believe their own bubble in the face of every shred of evidence to the contrary, the truth is their enemy.

the truth is our salvation.

your db is worryingly harmful to you atm.

you need to truthfully haul him up on this.

tell him that it appears he's getting off on your pain over this, and he's to stop forwarding this shit to you, or you will block him too.

understood?

don't forget this was a round robin...

my mother came to 'rescue me', to bring me home from that terrible man, in that terrible life (that she's cut me for dead in for up to 3 weeks, remember..)

she cam in the May 08, as I came home in MAY 2009...

I had no idea i'd been rescued.

only found out at my GM wake last year...

to my mum though, all of that was true.

to my faece at the time though she was telling me how much my ex loved me and how well he spoke of me.

no wonder it took so long to unravel that shit, there were many people conspiring to fuck up my head!

good

can't post much tonight but hissy is right, she's in denial and your brother is really not helping here

If he carries on sending you mail, he's going to be stopping the healing of this motherwound and he'll be turning it into a running sore that can last the rest of your lifetime.

He needs to shut the fuck up about her.

Thanks for listening to my mammoth spew there. I feel a lot calmer now. I'm speaking to Dbro tomorrow and I'm going to tell him I never ever want to receive another of her forwarded e mails ever again. If I get any more I'm going to delete them. Because they just enrage and upset me.
He's not doing it to be unkind, but it needs to stop.
I think the only way forward here ultimately is to cut the contact with DM back further and further. I would love to write to her and perhaps I will at some point, but for now I need to get away from her poison and let the scab form a bit.
I have been writing my journal and I will talk to the therapist next week. My homework was to think about the five needs ; survival, love and belonging, power, freedom and fun. I'm going to think a bit more about them.
The therapist tells me he thinks I am being "courageous". Time to pull out my inner tiger and rise above the shit and be happy despite my awful mother dripping poison from afar.

Thank you, lovely people or talking me down :)

just dawned on me it's a round robin therefore she's trying to imply to everyone that your 'poor' dds are suffering and kept in freezing cold conditions. grr.

No, it's not a round robin. She wrote what I quoted about the dresses to Dbro and he responded with WTF? You bought a house? basically and she wrote a long reply (which was what he meant me to read) about the house she's buying and the renovations she's going to do to it. I scrolled down and read the original msg from her about dresses and got upset.

out of interest, why is your DB sending the messages? didn't you tell him already that you didn't want to know? hmm?

in DM land, she's thinking of the little gc, the cold is irrelevant, she's showing how much she cares. people associate spain with summer, so inviting the 'oh is it cold in winter?' to which she can reply gushingly about her previous home.

it's just to embellish her life, it's all for show.

means nothing about others, there are no 'others' in her life, only supporting bit part actors. she is the leading lady.

I don't know, I think it was easier to just forward it than write it out on his phone. He said she'd bought a place and I said Wtf? or something and he said, I'll forward you her msg about it, there's nothing upsetting in it (which there isn't really in the main bit he was thinking of) then I told him how upsetting I found the original msg from her that I could see when I scrolled and he said something along the lines of "shit, so sorry, forgot about that bit" and obviously felt bad. I think he was surprised how much it upset me (tbf, I was surpirsed how much it hurt). But when we speak tomorrow I'm going to tell him that any e mails from her are liekly to be painful for me and I don't want to receive them.

ok, chain.

she's hoovering HIM then, with a soupçon of knowing he'll tell you everything. she suspects he's a quasi-flying monkey.

she wants him to think she's a lovely old woman. she's aware you've gone, so damage limitation?

i read it differently perhaps because my mother was like this in terms of poor badger's ds or various weird comments and ways of telling things to make it sound like SHE was the one who really cared about him or was the one who really raised him or something. may be me projecting. my gut is she knew he'd show you and it was passive aggressive digging.

you need to wrap your head around the idea that no contact means literally nothing - if you're still being fed info, letting her voice into your life via reading emails, still allowing relationships to be triangulated by her slyly then she's still in your life.