"But we took you to stately homes!!!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

(New thread as previous one is full).

It's October 2014, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Happy Posting

OvaryHill, I don't know the answer to your question, but I'm sorry to hear that this is something you are struggling with.

Hello, I have had help from this board before, a few years ago, but still my mother is making me feel like poo. Last year she fell ill - I live 50 miles away and am a single mum, my brother lives a 5 minute drive from her, is married and his kids are all older (youngest is 14/15). Anyway, he is her golden boy, despite the fact that I was the one who had to drive the 50 miles, dragging my youngest daughter with me, to take her to the hospital. We took her to A&E, and sat with her for 12 hours until they admitted her, got her on a drip etc. By this time it was nearly midnight, myself and my little girl hadn't eaten all day, and I was in agony as I suffer from spinal and hip arthritis (it hit me young, I'm only 45 now) and the worse thing I can do for it is to sit still. Then we got lost going home, and it was 4.30 am by the time we got in.
A few days later, and after I had visited her in hospital again a couple of times, I received a torrent of abuse from my sister in law. She was drunk, and ranted on that I was a useless daughter, that I should never have left my mum's bedside blah blah. I was really upset by this, and text my brother to ask him to shut her up before it got out of hand. What I got back was abuse from him, telling me he never wanted to hear from me, and to never contact him or his family again. I was angry at her texts but really really hurt by his.

Fast forward a year, and I have not had any contact with him at all. My mother, however, refused to acknowledge what he had done, and blamed it all on the wife. It took her until 3 weeks ago to ask him about it, and he admitted sending it but she told me she thinks he admitted it to cover for his wife! So I lost my brother through defending my mother (some of the texts were abusive about her) but she still won't accept that.

On Friday I sent mum a text to see how she was. I got one back saying she had had a bad fall on the Tuesday and that nobody had bothered contacting her until she got my text. But she never told anyone! When I called her, she just bemoaned the fact that my brother hadn't been in touch. She had been alone, in pain and with no food for 4 days. I am without a car at the moment, so there is no way I could go down to her. I text my sister who is in Oz and told her, and she then contacted my brother to tell him.

Today I asked her if she had taken anything for the pain and she said no...that my brother hadn't even been to see her. So I told her I would go there tomorrow, but as it would take 4 hours by bus and 4 hours back I would be able to stay only for a couple of hours. She text me back and told me not to bother, that if I wasn't even going to stay the night not to come at all. WTF? I was going to take her painkillers, bread, milk etc. But she knocked me back. She text me 3 times telling me not to go. Then she text me another one, all happy, that dear precious golden boy was going to see her tomorrow and he was going to bring her pain relief. Woopee doo...it's only taken him 4 days since finding out to make the 5 minute journey to hers!

When I have asked her how she could ignore the way he has treated me she said, in not so many words, that she will get more out of him than me so therefore she'd rather upset me than him!

It's always been like this - when my dad died I would bring fresh flowers to his grave twice a week, and she never commented. Or she would see flowers there and get all excited and say 'ooh look, (brother) has been up and brought flowers...aahhhh'...and I would reply that no, I had brought them and she would say 'oh' all disappointed and walk off.

I'm sick of it. My oldest daughter today asked me why the hell I bother because she always makes me feel like s**t.

He has brought nothing but trouble to the family...he has done time for armed robbery, he did drugs, he drinks too much...and yet I have done nothing to bring trouble to her. It hurts. When I was small a pair of men tried to abduct me, and she slapped ME round the face for it! I can remember a female member of the family was attacked in a phone box and fortunately she managed to get away after hitting back at the attacker. My mum actually felt sorry for the MAN!

She is a massive misogynist...apparently my brother said to her that at least we can never worry that she is a lesbian because she hates women and she replied that she doesn't trust women!

I'm sorry this is a rant, and there is so much more to tell but this is just the latest in a lifetime of the same.

I don't know why I want to do after all this time, I just wonder what would happen if I did or even can

OvaryHill, as far as I am aware, the police would only be able to 'do' anything in terms of legal action. As this person is dead, there's nobody to prosecute. I'm not sure what they could do for you really.

Could you go to your GP and get a referral for some counselling?

Hi Stately Homers. I've been lurking on here to a while and posted a thread a couple of months ago about my mother. Sorry I don't know how to do links. In short, she's fallen out with all her family, hates my dads family, has hardly any friends, is always ill, can't take criticism or any opposing opinion, thinks the worst of everyone and assumes all are out to get her. She had a bad childhood I know and have walked on eggshells round her all my life and I'm in my forties.
I've been LC with her since Aug. after a small spat where I pulled her up on her behaviour. She accused me of 'going for the jugular' I pull her up on her behaviour, kindly, once in a blue moon and each time she treats it as she's been verbally attacked. Attila advised LC (thanks your advice is always spot on) so I've seen her twice and phoned twice in the last 3 months.
It's been enlightening in many ways! She hasn't rung or called in once - normally it would be at least once a week. I feel like I've grown a pair. I don't feel at all guilty.
However, I have been getting angrier about the past, I guess because I have the headspace now? I think I've realised that her health thing is probably another way of keeping us compliant. Or am I being a bitch? She has had over the last few years random heart pains (checked out, nothing), bad feet, bad back, sciatica. All come and go. All seem to trigger an episode of depression, or an episode of depression triggers the pain. I'm only just starting to see the pattern. We have always been sympathetic and as my DC have got older I ask them to 'make it easy' for GM when they're with her - not to ask her to do lots of them, as she's in pain. I though t I was teaching them empathy but am I training them to be eggshell walkers like the rest of us?
I'm gradually putting up boundaries between her and the children now as I don't want them to be affected by her. They all love her though and keep asking to see her. How do I manage it? I don't want them to resent me. DH says we should just do a flying 'jolly' visit every 2 weeks and leave it at that. D you think this is Ok? Her 'health problems' have actually helped me explain so far to the kids that she's not well enough to have them at the moment. I guess my main concern is that she will undermine me. Why wouldn't she - she criticises everyone else and has rarely praised me.
Anyway, sorry this is a bit of a random brain dump, I hope you don't mind as it's spinning around my head way too much.
GoodtoBetter I've read your story and much of it resonates. I feel for you at the moment and hope you feel better once she's gone. I think you will.

Vivvyen, I'm so sorry to hear that. Your brother sounds especially nasty, and his wife too.

Have you considered stopping contact with your mum? It seems like you'll never be good enough in her eyes from what you've said. It would be a shame to have the rest of your life tainted by her behaviour.

you can call your local rape crisis centre - i'm sure they're able to help and advise about things that happened in the past and would be able to offer help and support.

who have you told about it if you don't mind me asking?

There's no way I'd consider counselling, but thanks for your advice

EleanorRigby...I've thought about NC with my mum many many times, but never quite made the break. I have distanced myself a lot though.
As for my brother and his wife...they are both vile. One of the times I visited my mum in the hospital last year, my mum had told my brother I was going up there, and that I was on crutches (sitting at the hospital had caused a massive flare up of pain and put me back on the crutches again). He had apparently told my mum he didn't believe I was on crutches, and while we were there the sister in law sent her two teenage boys to the hospital to check that I was, in fact, telling the truth. I loathe them.

Vyvyan I really think NC is the way forward for you. It sounds like your DM wouldn't even care. There are some wise Mumsnetters that post in this thread and I think they'd advise the same. Distance from them would be a huge relief for you, and will free you up to deal with your own family and your needs. They really aren't worth wasting any more time and energy on.

Fuzzy...I think she would care, but in a 'why is she doing this to me?' way! I was looking back over the texts from the past few days and the thing that leapt out at me was when I said I was coming down (8 hour round trip just to bring her pain relief and food) her response was 'don't bother, I don't want trouble, I'm too sick for that.'. Trouble??? I was offering to do the job that my useless brother should have done. This clearly demonstrates that she blames me for everything that went on, despite me being able to say, hand on heart, that I did NOTHING wrong. I am the first to admit when I am in the wrong, and spend my life saying sorry to my kids - something which I have never heard her say, incidentally.
One stand I am taking is that I am not having her for xmas this year. I do it every year (she won't go to my brother's house because she hates his wife) but this year my kids have begged me not to invite her. My oldest daughter had a baby 5 months ago, my first grandchild, and they are coming to stay with us over Christmas but she did say that if nan came they wouldn't come as she would spoil their first Christmas with their son...and she would. So I am not inviting her.
I thought I was managing to ignore her behaviour but right now she has me feeling so low again.

Fuzzy...I've just read your post from above, and OMG...we could be talking about the same woman. My mother also has no friends - she used to but they have gradually given up as they would call, she would refuse to answer, but then moan that they didn't care enough to call back again. They would invite her out for dinner but she would say things like 'God, I need impressing, not Depressing!' and not reply to the invite. She fell out with all her brothers and sisters (and there were many). Her sister lived at the other end of the same road and would walk past the house every day but they didn't speak for years. She's dead now, without them ever making up. I think you are spot on when you say you are teaching the DC to walk on eggshells...I am guilty of the same thing. I would have a 'look' or a minute shake of the head that the kids knew meant stop. It's ridiculous and SO tiring.

vivvyen it sounds like you're deep in the FOG - Fear Obligation Guilt.

The way she is treating you is deeply unreasonable, you know that, aye?

Is it possible with her to speak to her openly about this awful inequality and unreasonableness, or is she unable to take it in? It sounds to me like this comes from the unconscious view that women are the carers and men shouldnt have to do anything, poor lambs, regarding caring.

But it's not at all reasonable to expect you do these journeys!

I know you feel guilty and bad for not running up there but I think you need to see about social services help. And most of all to start saying NO and to distance yourself emotionally. You have your own family to look after and they should and must come first. The torch of caring passes down the generations, not up. (within reason; naturally you can't stop caring about your mother; but no one is entitled to take your efforts for granted or to demand unreasonable effort or to treat you with anything less than respect).

You also need to block your SIL and brother. No way should you tolerate, or be expected to tolerate, drunken and vile rants.

To borrow perfectstorm's quote again:

^I will never fathom why blood alone should mean you're forced to let people hurt you over and over again, as long as they aren't physically or sexually abusive. It makes no sense. Life is too short to let bad/damaged people screw with you, no matter who they are, unless they are your own kids. You don't owe anyone else your unconditional love and time.

PerfectStorm^

Sorry...I keep this pent up for so long that when I get someone to listen who understands it just keeps spilling out. Here are some for instances of her behaviour...
If she comes up to stay she always wants to go into town, but the only shop she will go in is marks and spencers (like they don't have one in the city where she lives!) and we (children and I) are all expected to walk along behind her like ducklings. But if one of us wants to look in a different shop...jeez, you'd think we'd suggested going into a sex shop! She'll follow us in tutting, then after maybe 2 minutes (bear in mind that we have just spent half an hour in M&S looking at the same things she has already looked at in her home store) she will 'feel faint' and have to go and stand outside, and then we are forced to go out with her. I always like to go for a coffee with my children when we are all in town, but suggest it to her and noooooo....she will come in with us but then refuse to order anything and then sit bolt upright on her chair, making us all either down the drinks that are too hot or leave them undrunk.
Wow...I am really on a roll now!

fuzzy it sounds very much like her health is a way to keep you under control actually.

Regarding your children loving her and distance, yes, distance sounds a very good idea. It's not good for them to be around endless criticism and unpleasantness at all!

How to do it, given that they love her? Your husband's suggestion sounds good, start off by seeing her once every 2 weeks and be breezy.

I'd also suggest if the criticisms get too much to start gently challenging her. Ask her why she says these things. Point out that they are very negative and put you down all the time. It can be done without active confrontation if you stay neutral in yoru tone and approach (talk it through with your husband lots first, it'll help, cause it's so hard starting to challenge someone who's always put you down for years). Then if/when she carries on being unpleasant, take it as an opportunity to gently fade away. See her every three weeks ... every month ... every 6 weeks ... every 10 weeks ... etc. If she asks why, tell her that you don't like the negativity and that if she can be more positive, it would be better.

---

ovary ... I hope you're okay.

-
elenor It can't have been easy for her to live in fear of him, but I still think she needed to have put our safety first. I think she knows that now, and maybe her refusal to open up about it is due to her regret. this sounds quite possible ...

vivvyen

Make the break particularly if you have thought about going no contact with her many times before now.

Your eldest daughter is very perceptive and has asked you why you at all bother with her. You would not have tolerated any of that from a friend, family are no different.

Such women do not change but maybe a part of you has thought that she would somehow change (and that may be why you have stayed in some form of contact). She was not a good mother to you and is also a poor role model of a grandmother to her children; that was actually always going to be the case.

People from dysfunctional families end up playing roles; your brother is her golden child (a role itself not without price but he is too stupid to realise that) and you are scapegoat for all her inherent ills.

Such dysfunctional women like your mother have no friends and there are always reasons why that is the case. They really do not want them, cannot interact with other people anyway and refuse to accept that other people actually have a point of view as well.

I would go no contact with your mother as of now and do not have her at all over for Christmas either. Radio silence to such people is necessary because toxic people like your mother are spoiling for a fight and always want the last word. If you disengage she cannot play power games with you.

Fuzzy

I would also have said that your mother uses her "poor" state of health to keep you all on a tight leash. This is also another power and control method used by such people to keep what they see as errant offspring in line.

How old are your children by the way?. They are likely not realising at all that they could well be being manipulated here. Does your mother have favourites or tries to play off one child against the other?. This can happen right in front of your eyes.

I doubt that they actually love their nan at all to be honest given how you as her daughter is treated. These children cannot afford to be given mixed messages.

Meerka...Yes, I am definitely in FOG. But the fog is starting to clear (see what I did there?) No way would she be open to a discussion on the inequalities...she would deny it point blank, then sulk. She never ever takes responsibility for her actions.
I have blocked my brother and his wife. I will never ever speak to them again. In fact, I was talking about it to my son (who is 17 and my absolute rock) and I said that when my mother dies, I don't think I would be able to go to the funeral. I could not be around them. Their children are just as vile...the oldest boy went to prison for beating a foreign student around the head with a wooden plank. Their facebooks are FULL of racist rants, and the most disgusting language. My mother is also a racist and it horrifies me, makes me feel quite ill to hear it. Out shopping with her a while ago and a woman got in her way and she shouted an obscene sentence at her, focusing on the fact that she was a muslim. I challenged her and told her she can't say things like that and she said 'I think I just have' and then repeated it...all in front of my kids who I have brought up to be respectful of race, gender, sexuality, age and ability. She then looks at the kids, grinning, expecting them to laugh but they all look at her stony faced and disgusted.
My little girl was abused by her father...when I told my mother she said 'but did he REALLY do it?' like she didn't believe my daughter, and then she bought her a t shirt saying 'Daddy's little princess'! WTF??? She was abused in the worst way possible. Needless to say the t shirt never made it on to my daughter's back.

Fuzzy, I get the ill health thing too. She has been in hospital 3 times now, and each time they have diagnosed gastritis, due to her taking anti inflammatories. But each time she has gone back to taking them, when I have told her to take paracetamol (with codeine if needed). She has also told me and the hospital that she has been vomiting and passing blood, but miraculously no one could find any trace of blood, and she has told them she has been uncontrollably vomiting, but in the hospital I caught her sticking her fingers down her throat!
x

vivvyen

The only way you will get any peace with regards to your mother is to completely disengage from her both mentally and physically. If you do not engage she cannot keep playing these power games with you. Such women like your mother are deeply damaged (her own birth family did that to her of that I have no doubt) and do not change.

Attila, you are so right about people like her not being able to interact with others. If she is at my house and someone knocks on the door she swears and then goes to her room so she doesn't have to talk to anyone. If we are out shopping and I bump into someone I know I can't stop and chat as she will storm off and stand a few feet away muttering under her breath. You are also so right that I would not take this behaviour from a friend. If I go NC I won't miss her, and I know that hand on heart, but I guess I am really scared of the backlash, and the guilt which I know will inevitably come. x

Oh, there is so much buried deeply within her own background. She comes from an Irish Catholic family, and the secrets there are endless. She is terrified of genealogy, and reacts violently if anyone mentions family trees. My cousin came over from Oz a while back, to trace the family history, and when she was at my mum's she got her camera out and my mum told her to 'put that f*ing camera away' and then gave her all false information about the family to try and out her off. Every so often, when she really annoys my oldest daughter, she will say 'ooh, I've started our family tree' and then just sits back and watches the fireworks! So I am in no doubt that she was shaped by her own upbringing.

What sort of backlash would you be expecting and who from?. Ignoring such people and their winged monkeys sent into do their dirty work for them is a way forward and you would get support here from your family as well as here if you wanted to do that.

Its time to draw a line in the sand and say enough. Your own self and family should come first.

You likely feel guilty primarily because you are yourself an emotionally healthy person despite your mother. And as for guilt or feeling guilty what have you got to feel guilty for?. Do you think your mother has felt any sense of guilt as to how you've been treated. No. It is a useless emotion and should be told by you to sod off!. Where mind control is involved it is always the fault of the perpetrator and not the victim.

had an email from my mother's address allegedly from 'mum and dad' last night for my birthday and please give ds our love and hugs and kisses type thing.

utterly, utterly surreal people. no mention or acknowlegment that the last time i saw her she virtually spat venom in my face with glee as she went off on her rant about how evil and abnormal i always was, am and always will be etc etc for the millionth time.

since going no contact it has been made utterly clear that they are not willing to discuss anything, they don't want to 'sort' anything, they're not going to acknowledge there could be any possible reason for me to have cut them out of their lives - they just want me to stop having boundaries, pretend nothing has happened and go back to 'normal'.

the gall of the woman still stuns me - not really as i expect it from her but when you look at it from the perspective of normal human beings it is just mind boggling.

remind me that normal people don't act this way?! they don't simply deny reality, pretend things haven't happened and expect you to just fall in with the farce do they? i am so DONE with this madness.

the rage and utter inability to accept that i will NOT play the role they dictated for me anymore is... incredible. they're still deluded and entitled enough to believe that i will just fall back in. tbh they're incapable of anything else.

even my father who tries to play nice guy and kept putting letters through my door to say please lets put this behind us would phrase it as 'we have no idea why you're doing this and we don't want to know, let's just put it behind us and go back to normal'

loud and clear - i don't know you and i don't want to know you i just want you to get back in role and give us what we want without us having to know or understand or accommodate you in any way. what you think, feel and want is irrelevant

grrr sorry needed a vent. even a bland vacuous email leaves me with steam to vent.