"But we took you to stately homes!!!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

(New thread as previous one is full).

It's October 2014, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Happy Posting

Stop beating yourself up, good :) You're too nice!

Thanks tbf to myself, a b lot of it wad behind my back. And it was very sneaky.
We've come down to Dbro's flat and I've got the info I need. Weather is gorgeous, been for a tramp along the beach and eaten cake. staying overnight before going home tomorrow.

put the tramp down good he's done no harm...

You just made me Hissy - an oldie but goodie!

Hello stately-homers. I've been lurking on here on and off for a couple of years since going NC with my parents. Nothing as dramatic as other stories on here, mostly my mother being unable to see me as a separate person, having no empathy, and a wholly negative frame of mind about everything. When I went for counselling straight after the counsellor named it as emotional abuse, which I'm still not comfortable with tbh.

I'm posting now as someone upthread recommended the book Running On Empty so I went to have a look at it on amazon and could read the first few pages. It gave a questionnaire to answer and I answered 'yes' to all of them, though some retrospectively - I feel so different after 2 years NC. But I was left wondering whether it was one of the questionnaires that are left vague and generic to draw people in to reading the book. I just had the feeling that what it describes is what a lot of people feel at one time or another. Basically, I'm doubting that I really had it that hard as a child. For the most part I'm NC with my parents as I don't like who she is now.

So, here's the questionnaire, is it really that unusual to answer yes to most of these questions?

Hello, I'm new to the thread. I too have toxic parents and also toxic inlaws. I have some book recommendations "The Disease to Please", & "Who's pulling your strings" both by Harriet B. Braiker. Also "The Emotionally Absent Mother", by Jasmine Lee Cori

Hi there frabjous

hmmm. Actually probably yes, many people (perhaps not most, but certainly many) woudl answer yes to some of those or even many, depending on mood.

It pretty much depends how strongly you feel those things, I think. If it's eveyr so often and just a bit, it's nothing to worry about. If you feel those things to a degree that affect your life either directly (eg with social interactions) or because you're feeling these things a lot of the time, then it's probably something you should think of looking more at.

I will say that some self-help books / therapists try to create problems that just aren't there. I've had a lot of therapy over the years and benefitted from it. But definitely, some people like to try to create problems where there aren't any. I know what you mean about people labelling things as 'abusive' when actually it's just not that clearcut or severe.

You could try reading the book to see if it chimes with you. It may or it may not.

and hello voice too, welcome :)

ohfrab i think you're explanation of what you struggle with and not seeing it as abuse and not feeling you had it that bad fits exactly the emotional neglect the writer talks about and the outcomes actually (it was me who mentioned it). she talks about all sorts of parents and why/how they emotionally neglect - some are also abusive, some are sociopathic in some way, all sorts of different issues. some just emotionally neglect though and their children feel as you do often.

some of those who 'just' emotionally neglect their children don't do it out of any malign intent or deliberateness they simply can't give what they never themselves had and are not even aware perhaps that they are missing. they're simply passing it on. maybe they don't have a healthy emotional, full self with which TO emotionally parent a child as they were emotionally neglected themselves. does that make sense? i know it sounds obvious and a platitude BUT if you think of never having had your emotions reflected back to you as a child, or have experienced interest or concern or a sense of yourself as a person with your own interior world and support in dealing with that interior world etc etc etc and then not having had cause to ever see that as abnormal then how would you know how to give what you didn't get just because you've suddenly had a child?

i'm not explaining well but i'd say read the book. i don't like the questionairre or the glossy website but the book is well worth a read. she specifically deals with people like yourself who feel as you do whilst also talking about say people like me whose parents had personality disorders and were malignant with it.

the fact is whatever other factors involved or not, whatever the intent or non intent, an adult who wasn't emotionally parented in a full way will be left without that emotional parenting you know? there will be gaps and things missing that they need to work out and address as an adult if they want to be emotionally ok.

sorry long post and prob mostly gibberish.

addressing your gaps and needs and what feels 'wrong' doesn't have to mean seeing yourself as a victim or thinking you're special or feeling sorry for yourself - it really doesn't and feeling like it does in itself suggests your acceptance of your own feelings and comfort with dealing with allowing them and dealing with them is 'out'.

Hi ohfrabjousday

re your comment:-
"I've been lurking on here on and off for a couple of years since going NC with my parents. Nothing as dramatic as other stories on here, mostly my mother being unable to see me as a separate person, having no empathy, and a wholly negative frame of mind about everything. When I went for counselling straight after the counsellor named it as emotional abuse,
which I'm still not comfortable with tbh".

Why is that?. Is it really too close to the truth?. And yes your experience is just as bad as any of the many others I have read on this long running set of threads over the years. People who first post here often write that their own experience was not as bad. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

In answer to the questionnaire people who do have emotionally deficient parents would answer yes to the vast majority, if not all, those questions set.

I would read up on Narcissistic Personality disorder and see if that chimes with your own experience of your mother. If she is indeed a narcissist the best thing you could have done for you was to go no contact with her.

Many adult children do have FOG (fear, obligation and guilt) in spades.

I know that post was for Frabjous but I just want to say I thought that made a lot of sense, Honey - not gibberish at all.

Hello and welcome Frabjous and Voice.

"some of those who 'just' emotionally neglect their children don't do it out of any malign intent or deliberateness they simply can't give what they never themselves had and are not even aware perhaps that they are missing. they're simply passing it on. maybe they don't have a healthy emotional, full self with which TO emotionally parent a child as they were emotionally neglected themselves. does that make sense? i know it sounds obvious and a platitude BUT if you think of never having had your emotions reflected back to you as a child, or have experienced interest or concern or a sense of yourself as a person with your own interior world and support in dealing with that interior world etc etc etc and then not having had cause to ever see that as abnormal then how would you know how to give what you didn't get just because you've suddenly had a child?"

I feel that my own now terminally ill FIL did just as his own emotionally cold fish of a father himself did (his parents were likely the same too). FIL also married someone of a not too dissimilar nature to him and thus was also able to take a back seat and opt out of family life. Its a combination of nature and nurture to my mind.

He could have and should have done far more (even DH admits that). We have a choice in how to behave and we do not do these behaviours to our own children. We have qualities that these emotionally deficient people lack; empathy and insight. We know that their behaviour was and is wrong.

My DH has commented that his parents never beat him (as it it was some sort of bonus) and that is heartbreakingly sad.

And how do these people want us to remember them?. Do they think they will at all be remembered with any great fondness?. I can honestly say that when FIL dies I will not feel any great sense of loss at his passing.

Thanks everyone.

Attila I definitely had FOG before/when I went NC, I've more or less left the fear and obligation behind, but the guilt lingers. Well it does until she tries to contact me, then she tends to reinforce my reasons for doing it in the first place. I was uncomfortable about the counsellor saying it was emotional abuse as I didn't feel like I'd given the 'evidence' for it, iyswim? We hadn't talked in huge detail about my childhood, just the odd aside when discussing what had been happening more recently.

Thanks Meerka, I guess that was what I was getting at - the 'creating a problem' aspect of self-help books. I think the strange thing about reading the list was how much it resonated with how I used to feel, rather than how I feel now, so it would feel like going backwards to identify with it, maybe. But I will have a look at the book, as TheHoneyBadger says, there will be gaps still that probably need to be looked at.

And that was a great post HoneyBadger - my mum (and possibly dad) certainly suffered an emotionally barren childhood themselves. In a very rare moment of openess (way before I went NC) she told me I had 'broken the cycle' with my own children. Your last paragraph was also particularly enlightening :)

I think the strange thing about reading the list was how much it resonated with how I used to feel, rather than how I feel now,

.... bit of an indication that going NC with poisonous people in there here-and-now is the best anti-depressant there is for many!!

Hello all, welcome frabjous and voice

We're back from the beach and I've got the info I needed for changing at least one of the bills to Dbro's name. Had a lovely 24 hours, was gorgeous weather. Had some real moments of sadness about DM, but I think it's really a sadness for what could/should have been. It's all such a waste, she could have had such a lovely life out here, but she just couldn't control her batshittery. Also, a sadness for the mum I thought i had years ago, but who seems to have all but disappeared :(

It was nice however to have a weekend without guilt trips about "leaving" her or PA whatsapp messages. Just having a nice weekend away. I was thinking that the sadness is because I feel she must be sad, I mean I look at my kids and they are so wonderful that I was saying to DH, the idea of her willingly not seeing them again, missing out on their lives...well me duele el alma it quite literally hurts my soul. But I think I'm projecting, maybe she's not sad at all, I mean any commumnication from her directly or even via Dbro is all angry, stroppy, ragey. So maybe she's just fucking pissed off and I need to dampen down that well of sadness because it's ME projecing how I would feel, rather than any real feelings of hers....does that make sense?

i feel a bit wound up tight with anticipation this coming week. afaik she's leaving on Friday or Saturday and I'm not sure what to expect either with what she'll do or how I'll feel. Will be really glad to get that over as it's stressing and upsetting me quite a bit. Have therapy on Wednesday, so hopefully that will help with these feelings.

Hello Stately Homers,

I've been lurking on this thread on and off for a while. I've changed my usual MN name for this post - I hope that is ok.

I'm so sorry to read what posters have experienced with their parents. You all seem very knowledgeable on the subject, so I was wondering if anybody could help me with my problem.

I'm struggling with my relationship with my mum at the moment. We live together as I am fairly young and I cannot afford to move out with my 1DC at the moment (I don't want to say the gender of DC as I don't want to out myself). I'll try to keep this as brief as possible.

My parents separated when I was still in primary school, although my mum should have left much sooner.

The one event which is, IMO, the most important is that when I was a newborn baby, my father shook me and my head hit the wall. I obviously have no recollection of this; I was only told about it about five or six years ago. I questioned my mum on it and she said she didn't leave him because there was nowhere for her to go (not true, plenty of family and friends) and that she didn't want to disrupt my sibling's schooling. Her thinking behind this was that if she divorced my father, then he may stop paying for my sibling's school fees. God forbid that her PFB would have to go to a state school. She'd far rather the second one was abused as a newborn.
Anyway, the reason I am now resenting my mother is because I can see how little she really cared about me. I feel like I have bottled up everything over the years, and it is only now that I have my own child, that I can see how selfish she was. There were many other incidents throughout our childhood, but this is the one which effects me the most.

I also find that she isn't emotionally supportive at all. My child's father turned out to be abusive, it took me a long time to finally get the courage to leave him. I feel like my mum has been really dismissive of how hard it has been for me, and just what exactly I've gone through over the last few years. She pays very little attention to my DC. She has never even taken DC to the park for example. I don't expect her to help me with the practical things of course, but I just feel really sad that it seems like she can't be bothered with my poor DC. I think I now know why almost all of my childhood memories are of my gran, and not of my mum!!

OTOH, she helps us out financially when she really isn't that well off herself. And if I didn't have this help from her, I'd be screwed (I'm currently retraining in a particular profession). I'm wondering if she perhaps has some sort of emotional issues? On the outside, it would appear that she is supportive and caring, but it just seems like she has absolutely no emotions. I honestly don't think she'd mind if I cut her out. Although we live together, we never actually spend any time together if that makes sense?

I guess I feel let down by her, and I am only realising this now that I have my own DC. I'm not sure where to go from here really. Part of me feels like keeping quiet until I am in a position to have my own home (perhaps a year or so) and then just distance myself from her and accept that the relationship will never be great. Another part of me wants to shout at her and tell her how shit she has made me feel. I don't really feel like trying to patch things up with her at the moment.

Thanks for reading this. I could have written about 10x more, but I don't want to out myself or sound like I'm over dramatic. She does have some good points, but I can't shake the overwhelming feeling that she's let me down. I am incredibly grateful for her support whilst I'm retraining, but it just doesn't make up for my childhood.

It sounds very much like she has some emotional issues. Also that she has some pretty fricking mixed emotional wiring. As you say, god forbid her oldest child should go to a state school, even at the price of her newborn being shaken?!

Having said that, in a strange way I can see a bit how things got that wrongly wired up, my father is a bit the same way (aka weird as hell and emotionally incompetent). But it's not okay.

Children need warmth. Simple as that.

It sounds to me like she does care in her own distant way but that she cannot show it. Or do you think she helps you with money because this is what she ought to do? From what you say it sounds more like the first than the second?

either way, it sounds very sad growing up. I hope you can find some healthy, loving warmth sometime soon ...

Hello Eleanor, how it's living with her day to day? Sounds difficult. Maybe the helping you financially is guilt or it's Ann easy way to be a "good" parent iyswim, easier than putting in the emotional hard work....

I'm in the park with DS, enjoying the sunshine. Don't have any classes or work our study that needs to be done today so trying to just chill and relax a bit as this week is a bit of an emotionally charged one. Signing soon for a three year lease on the house, so have been tidying the roof space to make room for a little makeshift office (with views!! ). All ways to try to clear out my brain, sort of metaphorical clean breaks iyswim.

Hi not sure if this is the right place for this but I would like to know if it is possible to report childhood sexual abuse to the police as an adult if the abuser is dead
Can you do it and is there any point?

I am sure you can do it.

Point to it? Maybe some peace for yourself. Also sadly statistically sexual abusers often have many victims. They may have the person on record already and it may help fill in a picture. If there isn't a record already, your statement can put one on file for future.

As long as the price is not too high it's worth doing. I made a statement about a sexual abuser that I'm aware of. Had only partial information but the policewoman told me that they do keep reports and it can build up a picture.

.. which can help other people who report abuse from the same person. doh. posting fail

But the person died some years ago

can i ask what it is you want to achieve or hope to get out of reporting it ovaryhill?

whether it's 'worth doing depends on what you are doing it 'for' iyswim.

hope you're ok.

Thank you so much for your replies.

It sounds to me like she does care in her own distant way but that she cannot show it. Or do you think she helps you with money because this is what she ought to do? From what you say it sounds more like the first than the second?

I think it is perhaps a bit of both. I don't doubt that she cares about us to a degree, but in her own way. I'm sure she does feel guilty about my childhood, which is perhaps why she is OTT with money. (She refuses to let me pay for food shopping, any bills etc. She will just stuff the money into my purse without me knowing, if I give it to her.)

I'm wondering if perhaps my dad caused her some emotional damage too. It can't have been easy for her to live in fear of him, but I still think she needed to have put our safety first. I think she knows that now, and maybe her refusal to open up about it is due to her regret.

GTB, living with her is fine on a day to day basis. We get along quite well, but we don't really see an awful lot of each other (she works full time, I'm training for a career). When we do spend time together, there isn't an awful lot of meaningful conversation. Just 'how was your day. Isn't the weather awful' type topics.

The reason I want to move out and distance myself from her isn't because we don't get along. It's because I can feel myself really resenting her for my childhood, which is the last thing I want. I don't think I'd have realised this if it weren't for me having my DC and escaping DV.

She was supportive when I was leaving my ex partner. And she is supportive whenever something happens again (ie when DC's dad causes a fuss, threatens me etc.). But she is reluctant to talk about the fact he was abusive during the relationship. It's almost like she thinks that because I'm not with him anymore, I should forget that part of my life altogether. I don't think that's a healthy attitude to have. Sometimes people want to confide in others. (This thread being a perfect example of that, ironically!)