"But we took you to stately homes!!!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

(New thread as previous one is full).

It's October 2014, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Happy Posting

could do with a bit of primal screaming at hte moon or something

Attila, I'm not sure exactly. Guilt trips I guess. She is in her 80s, although you wouldn't know it. And although my sister had exactly the same treatment and knows exactly what I am going through and the damage my mother causes, she is much more of a peacekeeper (doormat) than even I am and I know I would get the pleas from her not to cut my mother out. And I am scared that after she is gone I will be hit with guilt then and not be able to do anything about it. And no...she won't be feeling guilt because in her eyes she never does anything wrong. She is a total narcissist. Do I sound pathetic? I feel it. x

Howl at the moon indeed!.

I would block her e-mail address from your inbox asap if you have not already done this. It goes without saying that you must not respond to this. Any letters you also receive from them should be shredded without opening.

Radio silence from you is necessary, you must not respond at all.

NC is precisely that - if you respond to them at all it is a reward to them and also will give them carte blanche to bother you even more. Any Christmas presents that you may receive from them should be given to the charity shop again without acknowledgement.

I have gone on a bit about not responding to them haven't I :) but I write that for good reason.

yes it's for good reason attila. the only time i sucked into responding was guilt trips about my father having been in hospital and a couple of my friends had died unexpectedly that year so i was.... vulnerable to that kind of thinking iyswim.

initially i wore an elastic band on my wrist and every time i even thought about them i would twang it and say NO CONTACT out loud i didn't even want them in my head you know?

i wrote about it on my own thread but dont' think i have here that i live in the same village as them which makes things challenging and i really need to move and am trying to work towards that now. when i went NC i changed my phone number but that meant my letter box was still available. once i move i won't be sharing my location with them.

No vivvyen you are not sounding pathetic but you are really a typical adult child of a narcissist. You are not pathetic, you are a person in your own right with very real and valid feelings which your mother always wanted you to deny. Your mother thought of you as an extension of her.

Many Adult Children of Narcissists suffer from a tremendous sense of guilt about everything they do. Where others have no difficulty buying what they need, taking time off, or making sure they care for themselves, ACONs stumble, caught in the gap between being expected to care for themselves and having been programmed not to do so at all cost.

Among the objectives for ACONs to achieve are freedom from crippling guilt, developing a sense of mattering, mastering self-acceptance and realizing their self-worth. Assertiveness, self-care, and demanding equanimity and reciprocity in relationships by raising their low expectations of others and lowering the impossibly high standards they set for themselves are key issues. Discovering, accepting, valuing, nurturing and protecting their true selves without guilt or fear is central to their healing.

You will have to ignore the bleatings of your sister who will likely demand of you that contact is maintained; she is also doing that for her own reasons of self interest. She wants to maintain the status quo.

The last couple of weeks has been v hard for my DH as his narcissist self absorbed father (I would use that term loosely with regards to him anyway) is now terminally ill but DH is slowly processing it all and has made some progress. He has not been totally crippled by guilt but has remained somewhat disappointed that he does not have more memories of his dad and he spending time together.

vivvyen ... everything you write makes her sound more appalling. I'm with attilla now. Go NC. (welll done for blocking your brother!)

Regarding her death ... I think you need to look very hard at the FOG, even if you are beginning to come out of it. Preparing yourself for her passing now is probably a very wise idea. It's quite possible atm that whatever you do for her you will still feel bad, that you didn't do enough. Preparing mentally for her death by disentangling the feelings and assumptions and template for a good mother will help you a lot

At least your children know how to behave far far better. Your daughter sounds pretty clever (and quite funny) =)

honey i think sadly a lot of people do expect others to brush things under the carpet. A little bit of that's ok. But at the level of your family, it's appallingly unhealthy.

What I find weirdest about it is that there's this atmosphere around, the elephant that's contaminating the atmosphere iwth its shit. And no one will mention it.

i can't tell you how much it made my skin crawl finding a mothers day card and box of chocolates handing on my front door with a note to george saying here is a card to write on for mummy. i know to some that would sound 'nice' but to me it was just horrible. their intrusion on even mother's day was just horrible.

and things like letters saying, we will be delivering ds's christmas presents at x time tomorrow and you WILL answer your door for them.

or creepiest yet was my father turning up and claiming that someone had phoned their house (they are ex directory and i've never given anyone their phone number and don't know anyone who would do such a thing anyway) and claimed they knew where i lived in a sinister fashion and that he had better check on thehoneybadger and ds right now.

that was just totally insane - i knew that he was lying, he must have known i knew he was lying and surely any sane person would not want their daughter to think some weird man was watching them and implying threats to their safety?

maybe he didn't think about the implications, honey. They sound so weird that that seems quite possible.

One strong option could be to formally ask them by letter not to see you, contact you, mail you, phone you - contact by any form at all. Then log every single attempt they make. Then speak to the police on 101 and consider getting them to pop round for a chat to make it clear that you DO NOT want any contact under the Harassment laws. Their attempts to contact you must be so unnerving. This would at least stop it.

they think i'm the weird one obviously.

You know, I was reading back through the last thread and read about a mother saying her grandson was her little man but not knowing her granddaughter. It's so scary how similar their behaviours are isn't it? My mother dotes on my son, to the point where it's actually unhealthy and he HATES it. She pays far less attention to my oldest daughter, but my youngest is virtually ignored by her. My youngest is from my second marriage (whadda ya know, I married a narcissist) and she has never been acknowledged or accepted by my family. When my mother has sent a Christmas card for instance to the children, she has addressed it to the older 2 children, and then, in a different ink (obviously as an after thought) scribbled my youngest's name!
Another thing which has just sprung to mind...my nephew in Oz has a brain tumour. He is in his 20s with a young family. He recently underwent an operation to try and reduce the tumour, which resulted in him being unable to walk (although he now has some feeling back in his legs), however, the tumour is so deep that they cannot remove all of it. It was his little boy's birthday recently (around the same time as my nephew had his op) and my mother sent a parcel to him...and her over riding concern was that 'nobody even told me whether my parcel arrived, that cost me such and such to post and an acknowledgement would be nice'.

soooo....

DS had accident in May. My dad came to see him once in hospital, then complained about how much his shoulder hurt from 'driving all that way'
I invited him to come and see him once DS was out.

He only texted back the day before the day I'd suggested to say that he couldn't make it. I said that i'd assumed as much and had made alternative plans anyway, so not to bother worry.

I invited him with a good 6 weeks notice to see the team he followed come play and actually get thrashed royally by the team we follow. He said he'd let me know. He didn't.

I get a text today, along the lines of 'hope you are well, haven't heard from you in a while, blahblah, what does DS want for birthday/christmas?

So shoot me, I texted back we're fine, reason I've not been in touch because it seemed as if you weren't bothered , , but don't feel obligated to get anything if you don't want to.

Last i heard from him was AUG... the time before was MAY. Had it not been for the accident, i wouldn't have heard anything at all from him.

How dare he text me and try to guilt ME? I haven't changed my number, i still live in the same place. I HAVE actually extended the olive branch since the accident only to have it ignored... yet he thinks he has space to lay it on me?

I despair of my so-called family, i really do.

I know it's minor, but this is what fucking christmas does in toxic families.

I'll have to start another Toxics at Christmas thread again this year won't I?

Hissy...ah yes, Christmas is a minefield for toxic families! I have had the 'well how am I going to get the DGC's presents up to them?' which translates as 'you will have to struggle down here on the bus, (4 hours) and then struggle back on the bus again (another 4 hours) because I'm not doing it'. You wouldn't believe the hassles I've had over presents... constant requests of 'what shall I get for x,y and z, well you must have some idea, you're not being very helpful'. Then irate phone calls from her about why does my DD need a size 12/13 when she's only 10? Well they only have a 10/11 so I'm getting that, if you don't like it then change it yourself...aaarrgghh.....and so she's bought a dressing gown which is too big to post, knowing I don't have a car at the moment. I think it's her way of wanting an invite for xmas but she's not getting one this year.

vivvyen that was my mother who said my DS was her little man and the light of her life but claimed (to my brother) that she didn't really know my DD, despite seeing the pair of them every week. DM is currently emigrating in a fit of pique, hasn't spoken to me since August (nor me to her) and in fact I only know she's going thanks to the for sle and then sold signs up and from what Dbro has told me. I think she's leaving either Thursday this week or Friday. I don't suppose there will be any contact before she goes. I alternate between feeling as free as a bird and totally, utterly crushed.

Hissy, ah yes, the toxic bollocks of Christmas. It's never ever their fault, is it? And all this present shit, it really irks me this, here's some money crap because it's because they can't be bothered. DM did it with DD particularly because she wasn't basically interested enough to get to know her.

I'm assuming this Christmas will be a quiet one, who knows? I'm quite expecting never to hear from her again.

Have to keep reminding myself to just let her go this week and let things settle and see what happens. She knows where I am, she can say goodbye if she wants, but it's sooo tempting to contact her, even though the idea makes me feel ill at the same time. That's conditioning I suppose.

I think a Christmas support thread would probably get plenty of use, Hissy :( I expect Pumpkin will get a load of shit over Christmas too from her ILs.

And I don't blame you for texting back, I'd have had to chop my own hands off not to respond...so shoot me too

Hissy

I do not blame you for texting back because you are at heart a reasonable person. Unfortunately your dad is patently otherwise.

I am fortunate enough to be going on holiday over the two week Christmas school break, am not altogether surprised that the number of people who actually go abroad now over the festive season has risen year on year.

This comment by GoodtoBetter has struck a chord as well:-

"And all this present shit, it really irks me this, here's some money crap because it's because they can't be bothered. DM did it with DD particularly because she wasn't basically interested enough to get to know her".

My DS is a teenager now but even when he was younger I'd get the phone calls from MIL around his birthday and Christmas asking me what he would like and also could DH send her an Amazon link to something he'd like. Indeed she (and my parents) did this because they were not interested enough to find out what he really liked.

Goodtobetter...yes, I am reading through the last thread and your trauma with your mother. Utterly shocking. It hurts, doesn't it, when one of your children is left out? It all became glaringly obvious (and led to DD2 disliking my mother) when she remarked one day that she had beautiful grandchildren...and then said 'but not that one on the end (DD2) she's ugly.' Then laughed hysterically when DD2 cried.
I did laugh at your phrase 'psycho batshittery' though...x

TheHoneyBadger - I had very similar with demands to accept presents. Last year for dd's birthday I was told they "knew it would upset frabjous, but we will be there and we don't want a repeat of the scenes we had at christmas". They didn't turn up in the end but it ruined dd's birthday for me, I was so scared of them turning up. This year my mother satisfied herself with a woe is me email about how she didn't know dd any more and telling me to tell her what she would like for her birthday. (One thing I've realised is she is incapable of asking a question. If she had asked a single question over the past two years I may well have answered her, but she hasn't, not even - how are the children?) In the end she just sent a card, (because 4-year-old girls are so hard to buy for if you don't know them...) so it's been an improvement.

As mentioned above, it was Christmas that was the final straw for me. It is just a horrible time for dysfunctional families.

hissy if you start a christmas thread, the Mumsnet servers might creak.

God.

I hated christmas with a passion for so many years. All that fuss is wonderful if you have a nice family (well and if you like fuss). But if not, it's horrendous. I used to work in shelters at xmas because it was so much better than any other option.

It's getting easier now. My inlaws don't fuss much about xmas and my MIL is great, so there's less pressure. I don't loathe it in the same way. Dont'think it'll ever be actually enjoyable though. At least with kids you get to watch them opening the presents though =)

All - thanks for your replies and advice. Much appreciated. Just for the record, my DM doesn't criticize me (or support me really) in front of the children but criticises and judges others, especially my DF. She used to with me but doesn't now. I think because the 'power' had shifted (in her eyes) because I've got the children.
Thinking about it, over the years she tends to focus on one person at a time to demonise (all done behind their back - only my DF gets the full personal treatment!) I can recall her slating all my dads sisters (I'm just like them apparently), deriding and scoffing friends that visited the minute they had left, wishing her mother dead. I'm not exaggerating by saying that I've heard her scathing opinions of every relative we have, and we have loads. Same with various work colleagues.
She has been much quieter tho since being a GM. Less opportunity to say things with young children around and also they are very loving children (I've showered them with the love that I would have liked as a child) and they (without knowing it) love bomb her. So I think this has helped. She hasn't had a favourite yet but I fear that she is starting to single out my eldest (12) as her confidante. Especially since I've backed off a lot this summer.

Anyway I'll post more later as at work now.

I had a thread last year. will see what it was that I said/give some thought to what the OP should be.

i do feel it's important, as there are so many people that do struggle with this stuff and the flaming adverts really bring it home how crap our lives are.

had an interesting 24 hours actually, made me think about a few things..

Number 1: (apologies, hoping you have all eaten) DS called me last night to announce that there was something moving in his, erm, poo. Threadworm. Tablet administered, hands washed, all good.

But this made me think.... I recall having them as a kid, but never told my mum. I brought this up with DS, and realised it's cos he knows he can trust me, and that I would help.

Number 2: my aunt (DM sister) gratuitously mentioned my mother in a text. so I said I'd rather not hear anything about DM again tbh, and again said that the things she has done to us, and refuses to apologise for any of it. I'd given her a chance, she bulldozed through it and refused to take any responsibility for the hurt and fear she caused. Aunt has apologised and says she won't mention her again. i know this is shit, but she and DM had a horrific childhood at the hands of my late GM. Aunt was the golden baby, DM was the persona non grata, Uncle was the Boy that Could Do No Wrong. So I mentioned that DM treats me differently, has been cruel to DS on a number of occasions and would rather go NC than apologise. I hope that she will understand.

I wish I could emigrate...

I'm getting guilt tripping about Christmas already. And my problems are minor compared to some on here.

Toxics at Christmas thread again is a good idea.

Jokes aside, yeah it is a good idea hissy

vyvyan post away! In my experience you have to get it all out there before you can start healing. Then other memories have room to pop up, together with fresh insights. It's a journey. You are still on your journey to LC or NC. An NC Xmas will help you with your journey I promise. Your experiences with your birth family and dbro sound very bad. I would defo NC. Your own family sound great, I would focus on them and not look back.

Hissy an Xmas thread would be really helpful for a lot of people I think! Interestingly my DM had exactly the same dynamic as yours as a child - she was the scapegoat, dbro had to be waited on, dsis was golden child. I've always had huge sympathy for her because of this and we've all 'enabled' her because of her past. However, despite an awareness of the fact that she's 'damaged' (her words) and the reason why, she has never woken up to the fact that she's passed her damage on to her DC and DH - in fact I think she's been projecting her anger at her birth family onto us and anyone vaguely close ever since. And despite being given the chance to experience a loving relationship with her GC (which she does) she still continues to be critical, judgey and paranoid in every other aspect of her life.

Aaarrgghh...I had a text from her tonight, saying how lovely it was to have something to eat, and a drink, and pain killers and how it was even lovelier to have some company at last! I despair. If she wasn't such a bloody martyr and not told anyone she'd have had company earlier, and I offered to go down and she told me not to bother as she didn't want trouble! Big fricking deal that my brother went to see her, he lives 5 minutes away from her! When does the emotional blackmail, and mind games, and all the other crap stop? Oh, she also told me she had spoken to my sister and begged her to come home for Christmas...so here we go again, brother is golden boy, sister is now in favour and I am the black sheep for not going to see her (even though I was going to and got shot down in flames!) There is always one in favour and one cast out among us, it's sick!

Can anyone tell me if these examples 'count'?

Mother - cant stand it if I buy birthday gifts for her (even as a child she was snippy about any bought/made gift) but annoyed if I don't. We are painfully broke so this year I sent a gift of 3 kinds of chocolate (nice chocolate) from me and the kids, plus dd (7) had made a beautiful handdrawn poster.
No acknowledgement, so I called and she said: 'oh I sent an email you must have lost it in your spam folder. anyway, what is the weather like?'. I was upset she didn't acknowledge her granddaughter's efforts.

Today I get an email -never uses my name, never signs herself as 'mum'. Just direct. It said that she had sold some of my childhood toys and was sending me a cheque as I was so broke, 'but don't say anything about me sending you money'.

We have been NC for years at a time in the past and she only ever contacts me by email every few months, as it is 'too expensive to phone'.

On my 40th she sent me a £3.50 charity shop top. Fair enough, she has no money either. But it was 8 sizes too big. She said: this should fit you' (I am fat, obvs, but not that size)